Talk:Baltic Germans

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== Prior discussion == What does Gustavus have to do with the Baltic German? Was the university only open to Germans? Rmhermen 14:02 Aug 23, 2002 (PDT)

To User:Rmhermen Gustavus Adolphus and other Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Luxemburg, Italian, Spanish etc rulers pledged allegiance to emperor, were part of and ruled part of the Holy Roman Empire as duke, prince, or Prince-Bishop etc). Gustav Adolph very much was seen by Protestants as savior, because by then the Catholic "Spanish" Habsburg emperors and their supporters geared up for Counter- or Anti - Reformation, leading into the 1618-48 Thirty Year War, with the many turmoils actually starting long before that. user:H.J.

Still doesn't tell me why a university formed by Gustavus should be mentioned in the Baltic German article. Rmhermen 07:04 Aug 24, 2002 (PDT)

Again, user:H.J. knows a lot of facts, and is partially right, but doesn't get the whole picture. The Baltic Germans were Germans who settled in the Baltic area very early, many for trade. This was not difficult in the period when the Teutonic Order ran the place -- and please let's remember that officially, the TO reported to the pope, not the Emperor. And please let's remember that the Emperor often did little more than rubber stamp whoever ruled an area -- it's not always what it appears. JHK

I substantially rewrote this article, which implied mostly additions rather than revisions; I also sorted out the nomenclature. This is important for related entries referring to Estonia, such as University of Tartu and many scientists associated with it, but it's almost like a big stub and could use a lot of editing, addition, nuances, etc. Clossius 16:09, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I made some minor tweaks to your text, including changing [[Imperial Germans]] to [[Imperial Germany|Imperial Germans]], which of course can be changed back in case we really find it worth to write an article on Imperial Germans. I wonder however over your removal of the reference to Olof Palme, whom I guess is more well known than the two prominent Balt Germans you inserted there instead. Anyhow, great work!
--Ruhrjung 16:33, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Many thanks for any improving changes. I think in the end there should be a small entry for Imperial Germans, in the specific sense of Germans from the Empire as classified by Germans from regions outside it. I'm not sure about the "Imperial Germany" link, because that refers only to the 1871-1918 Kaiserreich, whereas reichsdeutsch is also used for times before and after that. As regards Palme, I think there are many more people with Baltic German lineage; the reference seemed more incidental than anything else. The two scientists were there already, and I only retained them for later expansion - they are of course not the most famous Baltic German ones at all, and some other ones, such as Karl Ernst von Baer, are already here on wikipedia.
Clossius

That's my problem with the English term "Imperial Germans." I think it poorly covers Reichsdeutsche. Maybe Continental Germans could work? I don't know!

Alas, no; "Imperial Germans", especially since the last decade, is in fact used in the English-language historical literature about the Baltics, the University of Dorpat (where Imperial vs. Baltic Germans was the main conflict among the professoriate), etc. Thus, it clearly is the standard term (and one would search for in an encyclopedia if unfamiliar with it).
I see. I made the Wikipedia:Google Test and found it being more used referring to Imperial Germany, but now it turns out that an article on Imperial Germans is needed.--Ruhrjung 17:56, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Okay, that can be done very briefly. Clossius
Just did; this is just a stub and can be much improved, but at least it's not circular anymore. Clossius 18:29, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am, by the way, impressed by your work. I took a look at your other contributions, and remain impressed!

Many thanks; that probably means I spend too much time here! :-)

Regarding Palme: yes, incidential, seen from Balticum, but maybe not seen from the perspective of international politics.
--Ruhrjung 17:24, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You can certainly restore it, if you want, but I think many eminent persons have some sort of Baltic German descent, and I don't think Palme is in the end that big, even internationally, to qualify for a single link. Clossius 17:35, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
(My impression is that he is "bigger" internationally – than in Scandinavia.)
But no, I'm not particularly keen.--Ruhrjung 17:56, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
That may well be so. I'm sorry I deleted him, I didn't see he was an addition on purpose, I thought it was something of a loose end. As a matter of fact, I hadn't even looked at the history of the article, because it seemed so mangled and in need of revision. I only now discovered that there were all kinds of political fights over it also. If I would have known that, I might have actually let it alone entirely.
That is what I consider a serious problem for and with Wikipedia. That the most serious contributors leave the lesser serious to make wikipedia into a war zone.--Ruhrjung 11:08, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The last change is clearly completely wrong; native Prussians as defined here (i.e., not Prussians in the general sense) have nothing whatsoever to do with Baltic Germans, nor, dare I say, would they ever have been in any relevant discourse or literature. This should be removed, because it is really false. Clossius 19:25, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think that was more confusing writing than deliberate misinformation, so I changed it to what I think was intended. — Jor (Talk) 19:33, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This way, it is certainly more correct, although still not completely so, and I don't think in the relevant literature, there is much lumping-together of the two, so I changed the qualifier from "usually" to "occasionally". Clossius 20:40, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. It certainly looks better now. — Jor (Talk) 20:43, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] 1 question

"The German-language University of Dorpat, the only one in the Baltic region for centuries, was the intellectual focus of the Baltic Germans..."

You wanted to state that it was the only German-language university in the Baltic region?--Vytautas 09:26, 2004 Jun 6 (UTC)

Both that and the only University at all in the Baltic region - the first other universities in that region are early 20th century foundations, usually former polytechnics. In the Baltic Sea region, of course there were many more and some earlier ones, such as Uppsala, Rostock, etc. Clossius

[edit] again

Why prussian german are not counted as Baltic-german?

There is a difference between the Old Prussians (natives) and the Prussians in the modern sense, but neither of them are Baltic German, as they simply lived in a different area. Clossius

As i understand only germans that lived, in what is today Latvia and Estonia, counts as Baltic-germans, am i right?

Yes, you are. Lithuania was not considered Baltic for a long time (until into the 20th Century), and it was certainly outside of any Baltic German sphere. "Baltic" in that sense were only the Russian provinces of Estonia, Livonia, and Couronia. Clossius 11:12, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


[edit] A small change, and suggested changes...

I changed the sentence saying that the Baltic Germans were impoverished after Estonian and Latvian independence; at least in Latvia, they were the wealthiest ethnic group and extremely organized politically (with the highest per capita representation in the parliament, for example). Also, I tried to underscore the extent of their cultural autonomy -- highly educated, they had their own school system prior to 1934 (even including a higher education institution, the Herder Institute). The school board basically ran their cultural projects for a time. In Estonia, their cultural autonomy was even more extensive. Their designs on Latvia after WWI, e.g. support for Niedra's puppet government and the Bermondt-Avalov episode (for which reason Latvia actually declared war on Germany on November 15, 1919), should be mentioned. Their departure should also be detailed (the agreement between the Latvian and German governments, for example) -- as should the fact that the main Baltic German organization was taken over by local Nazis in the late 1930s (Nazism was rather widespread, especially in the younger generation). A good source is http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Ethnicities/Germans/German_Migrations.htm Pēteris Cedriņš 12:21, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Baltic Germans vs. Baltic German nobility

Just as an observation, the article, as of now, really reads more like "the history of Baltic German nobility", and not "Baltic Germans as an ethnic group". Despite a popular misconception, which the article also seems to reinforce, the two (Baltic Germans and Baltic nobility) were nowhere near to being identical phenomena. In fact, throughout most of the history of the Baltic Germans (and the German-speaking population in the Baltic area) the majority of them did not belong to aristocracy, but were merchants, craftsmen, clergimen, soldiers and other laypeople. --3 Löwi 15:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point, but better if it were integrated into the article! :-) The emphasis on the nobility may be correct in a history of the Russian provinces etc., but not when discussing the ethnic group, which is what this article is about. Clossius 16:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Should this article be at Baltic Germans instead? Carpathian Germans, Danube Swabians, and Transylvanian Saxons are at the plural ending. OTOH, Ethnic German, German-Brazilian and Volga German are at the singular ending. Olessi 20:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Good observation! The inconsistency probably irises from the fact that, in English, words ending with -ish or -ese are used in all these meanings, and so people or language have to be added. But an ethnic group name ending with -an in the singular will most often redirect to a disambiguation or to a language or dialect whereas the plural is more likely to redirect to a group of people. I would prefer seeing the plural form in the title, since the content of the article will invariably still use the plural of the noun (if not a derived adjective). But maybe it's nitpicking, really... ;] /Big Adamsky 21:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Even better: "German Balts" should be used as they call themselves (Deutsch-Balten). Likedeeler 19:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

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[edit] Today

I assume their presence today is really tiny but it would be interesting to make a mention of their numbers and places where there may be still communities nowadays. It would also be interesting to note -if true- whether there were certain areas of present day Germany with a remarkable higher Baltic Deutsch population as a result of a coordinated migration. Mountolive | Talk 07:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

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