Talk:Balkan peninsula

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Contents 1 Macedonia 2 Religion in Albania 3 Peninsula or not 4 Balkan communist states vs. Soviets 5 Arvanites, Greeks, Albanians 6 The rest

[edit] Macedonia

FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA IS SLAV MACEDONIA !!! NOT MACEDONIA !!! ALEXANDER THE GREAT ARE NOT SLAV !!

That's what I meant by petty nationalistic behaviour. Zocky 23:18 Jan 21, 2003 (UTC)

There's no end to this discussion. Trust me. Greek nationalists demand that Macedonians should be called Macedonian Slavs and not Macedonians, because Macedonians were an ancienct semi-greek people (see Macedon). There position is completely ridiculous, though - it's like Germans demanding that the French be called something else because Franks were a German tribe or Swedes demanding that Russia changes its name because the name originally comes from a Swedish tribe. There are examples like this all over the world, so the only difference here is Greek nationalism.

I don't want to start an edit war over this, but I don't like them getting their way. Zocky 11:39 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)

Mr Zocky ! This is nationalism !(see VERGINA SUN) http://home.arcor.de/macedonia/basket/ìndex.html

http://www.macedonianpride.cjb.net

62.47.35.138, please make your case here on the talk or you will be banned. Three broken links and some incoherent shouting doesn't make anyone believe you. Tokerboy

[edit] Religion in Albania

I see that Albania is considered to have Muslim majority, but it is not a clear cut case. Most people seeing such statements would be reminded of other Islamic countries, but there is a big difference in Albania. Most people who are considered Muslim now are just "born" into that description as a result of the Ottoman Empire influence from a long time ago. They do not adhere strictly to the 5 pillars. Although you can hear the call of prayer in Tirana and other cities, it is only because the government is really tolerant. There are no doubt "true" Muslims, but there are also many more people who just call themselves Muslim. People of different faiths intermarry without any prejudice. Also all holidays are observed by all people in some form. I think most people are generally religious (as in believing in a higher being), and there are a good deal of atheists (having resulted mostly from the communist regime). These are just my observations. Dori 03:50, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Is it different for Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia, the Muslim population of Greece, and Bosniaks? Andres 08:05, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am not sure, but I would speculate that this is the case for Albanians. In Greece, there are likely Muslims from other countries that would behave differently. For example, there was a big raucus over the issue of building the only mosque in Athens. This does not mean that all Albanian muslims behave this way, but I *suspect* that the majority does. All the media seems to leave this aspect out and instead focuses solely on stating that there are muslims in the balkans. I don't know if there are any studies anywhere, but I would be interested to know. Dori 16:31, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, that would be really interesting. I wrote because I suspected that for example in Bosnia the situation was similar to that of Albania. Then your note should be extended. I think someone who knows might come across this page and inform us. Therefore I think open questions should be fotmulated on the Talk page. Andres 18:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Peninsula or not

It seems to me that in this article inconsistency arises because the Balkan peninsula as a physical-geographical concept and the Balkans region as a human-geographical concept are confounded. If we accept the physical boundary along Danube, Sava and the Julian Alps, then a small eastern part of Rumania, a big southern part of Serbia (excluding Vojvodina) and a southern part of Croatia are included. Slovenia is excluded. When Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia were part of Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia partly belonged to the Balkan peninsula. When determining the boundaries of the Balkans region, we have no clear-cut criteria, and we are bound to have disputes because different nations have different ideas of the Balkans region. Andres 05:10, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The whole idea of a peninsula is rather stretched. One could argue that the mentality of people from the Dalmatian coast is much less Balkan than of those in Slavonian plains, which would be the reverse of the above. The page should probably be renamed to "Balkans", it's simpler and avoids that issue. --Shallot 06:44, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think then it would be better to have different articles for the peninsula and the Balkans region. I think there is a peninsula, and the peninsula should include Romania because the corner of the Black Sea is where Romania ends. But this is another issue how to define that peninsula. Andres 09:05, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Possibly. But then you'd probably get a heap of Romanians complaining how they are getting included in the infamous Balkan peninsula. It's a lose-lose situation, really :) --Shallot 17:26, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think the article about the Balkan peninsula could include only physical geography along with the discussion of the existent different conceptions about its boundaries. Then hardly Romanians would complain. Andres 19:17, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

And it seems obvious that the border of the peninsula should run from near Rijeka to near the estuary of Danube (no, rather even the estuary of Dniestr) but how it runs leaves room for convention. Probably Danube is chosen either then the border has a more or less east-west direction. I am curious about that. Andres 21:51, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Let alone the fact that the original definitions of the word peninsula presumed an isthmus, which the Balkans simply don't have, quite the contrary. Its form doesn't even nicely fit the description of being land surrounded by water on three sides. It's really a lousy peninsula almost every aspect. :) --Shallot 12:12, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So, should we go ahead and implement that? Probably first by moving this article to Balkans and then changing the peninsula article to include a discussion about it. --Shallot 23:23, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

If you split then please let the discussion of nature and natural resources remain in the article "Balkan peninsula". It also should contain the history of the concept of Balkan peninsula along with the different conventions, which still demands research. I only know that the term "Balkan peninsula" was coined by the German geographer August Zeune in 1808. Andres 06:02, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'll just move the article to the shorter and more popular term "Balkans" until we figure out the content exactly. I'd hate to make a mess splitting them up. --Shallot 14:11, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That's OK if you redirect it and mention the peninsula at the top. Andres 15:51, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Balkan communist states vs. Soviets

Yugoslavia, led by Tito, rejected the Soviet idea of merging with Bulgaria

Before 1948, it was Yugoslavia's idea somehow to "merge" with Bulgaria and Albania (see Communist and post-Communist Albania). Andres 06:24, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In Stalin's grand scheme of things, the logical course of events would have been for all south Slavic nations to be in one union which would in turn become part of the Soviet union -- Tito and Dimitrov are simply mentioned to have talked about it in public. Obviously this didn't go particularly well because the different entities couldn't even begin to be made to function as one (an internal problem to Yugoslavia itself, in fact). --Shallot 06:44, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That is probably right. But my concern is that as it goes, Tito is one-sidedly shown as just a victim though he himself seems to have been a smaller-scale imperialist who used to dream about swallowing in one or another form Bulgaria and Albania, and who knows, perhaps even Greece. Andres 19:27, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I see your point. Please feel free to rephrase that sentence. (Although Greece would be _really_ wishful thinking:) --Shallot 20:49, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't have enough knowledge to do this myself. I am not sure the whole issue should be mentioned in this article but if it is then more details are needed for accuracy and clarity. Andres 21:51, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Arvanites, Greeks, Albanians

The paragraphs about the Greek minority in Epirus and later Albanian immigrants in Greece fail to make clear which of them are Arvanites. I think those two paragraphs should be merged to attain more textual coherence and clarity. Andres 08:08, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In the resume of my previous note I inadvertently wrote "Albanian Greeks" instead "Albanians in Greece". But it seems that Greek minority in Albania also should mentioned here. Andres 08:21, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I gave it a shot at fixing this, but I suspect the whole minority thing should not be here since many countries in the balkans have minorities from other countries. I removed a bit about the Arvanites since it was too specific and is included in the article linked. For the record, I think capitalizing the section titles was a good idea :) Dori 05:12, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You are right that in the present state the material about Albanian minorities is overweighed. But I think it would be better to compensate this by adding other material than by deleting this. My reasons: I think it is good to have a section or a separate article about ethnic minorities on the Balkan peninsula both because it helps to understand the ethnic composition of the population on the Balkan peninsula and because the minorities are an actual or potential source of tensions and so have an overall importance for understanding the political situation on the peninsula. Andres 08:05, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I understand this, but it is obvious that there are minorities in all the countries. Since in most cases there are no credible data (all official values are likely to be either overstated or understated) to be able to give specific values, the generality that would result would in my opinion would make the addition useless to the article. Anyone is of course wellcome to give it a shot and we can take it from there. Dori 16:27, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I understand that we don't have enough information. If we don't have numbers, we need not mention them. And I am not saying that you or I must do something or that this should be done right now. I am only noting desiderata. Andres 18:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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[edit] The rest

I think it would be better to say "ethnic composition of population" because "nationality" is at least ambiguous, meaning citizenship and only secondarily meaning the belonging to an ethnic group. I didn't touch it because I don't know how to formulate the first sentence if the section about "nationalities". Andres 08:24, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)