Talk:Bagua (concept)
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This page doesn't work with UTF-8. All the characters appear as a questionmark (Like '?').
Shouldn't this page use Unicode, so we can properly display English, Chinese & Korean characters? Gigglesworth 20:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC) Gigglesworth 20:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Autodidaktor - looks ok to me. How about now? October 30 2006 03:38 UTC
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[edit] Guys the trigram symbols in the table don't match the glyph.
Otherwise good page --
--Xgenei 03:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Bagua - Animated" and "Bagua - Full Diagram"
In the "External Links" section, these two 'links' were included initially as simple html addresses. I went ahead and replaced them with shorter versions; doing so makes the two look nicer, I believe. Personally, though, I believe the two should be moved to the "See Also" section seeing as the two links are still links within Wikipedia (albeit the .ru version). But that's just me...Ultatri 05:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with Bagua Map
I can't see any reason why this shouldn't be done. The feng shui thing is just one of many applications for the concept, and doesn't really seem to be a rich enough vein of material to merit its own article. --grant 22:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've merged Bagua Map into this article. Also, I moved this section to the bottom of the talk page so that it doesn't look confusing. Thaurisil 10:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Incomplete Treatment
I noticed that while the majority of Baguas match the ordering shown in this article, I have seen some that do not. I wondered about the difference, but I didn't think much of it until I stumbled across the answer in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching. In the Shuo Kua (the eighth "Wing" of the I Ching), it explains how the *original*--i.e. created prior to or early on in the Zhou dynasty--configuration of the trigrams was as follows, starting from the top (which is south, btw; the article doesn't specifically mention this aspect of the Bagua) and moving clockwise: Qian, Xun, Kan, Gen, Kun, Zhen, Li, Dui. According to the Shuo Kua, this arrangement is called the "Sequence of Earlier Heaven" or "Primal Arrangement". It then gives the arrangement shown in the article (Li, Kun, Dui, Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Xun), which they term the "Sequence of Later Heaven" or "Inner-World Arrangement". They attribute this latter ordering to King Wen.
The significances and differences between these two orderings is something I am still wrapping my head around (I have only recently became intrigued by Taoism), but from what I've gathered so far the "Primal Arrangement" is based on complementary opposites placed on opposite sides (Fire/Water, Earth/Heaven, Thunder/Wind, Mountain/Lake) whereas the "Inner-World Arrangement" is arranged to better mimic the progression of natural phenomena throughout the year. Seems reasonably simple, but there are three catches:
1. Since the position of the seasons remain the same, each season is represented by different trigrams--for example, in "Primal Arrangement" Summer is Qian but in "Inner-World Arrangement" it is Li.
2. Since the position of the cardinal directions remains the same (i.e. south is still at the top), each direction is represented by a different trigram.
3. Despite these differences (or because of them?), the two orderings are supposed to coexist--Baynes' exact words are "It is noted that the trigram Li occupies the place in the south that in the Primal Arrangement is held by the trigram Qian, the Creative. Li consists essentially of the top and bottom lines of Qian, which have taken to themselves the middle line of Kun. To understand fully, one must always visualize the Inner-World Arrangement as transparent, with the Primal Arrangement shining through it. Thus when we come to the trigram Li, we come at the same time upon the ruler Qian, who governs with his face turned to the south."
Suffice it to say that I do not "understand fully". It sounds like it's describing a series of alterations you can perform on the Primal Arrangement in order to produce the Inner-World Arrangement and/or it's explaining how any two of the overlapping trigrams coexist...
Despite this ignorance on my part, the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching translation is nigh-legendary in its accuracy and I have found several examples of Baguas (mostly pendants) that use the "Primal Arrangement." I've therefore concluded that it's significant enough to merit immediate inclusion in the article. Since I cannot (yet) explain the interplay between the two diagrams, I'll tag the article as needing attention from an expert. I'm also going to stress that south is at the top of the bagua--the article doesn't contradict this (for example, it says that Li represents south and Li is indeed at the top of the bagua in the illustrations) and change the caption on the first picture to reflect that it is an "Inner-World Arrangement." (EDIT: I just now noticed that the caption on the second picture does indeed identify it as the "Later Heaven" King Wen order. It also seems that there were originally pictures showing the Primal Arrangement order, but were removed due to potential copyright issues. Even if we can't find a picture, though, we do need to address the differences in the article itself.)
Note on romanization: The Wilhem/Baynes I Ching uses Wade-Giles. To avoid confusion, I have substituted the appropriate pinyin terms, except for the term "Shuo Kua", for which I could find no readily available pinyin transliteration. --Lode Runner 02:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, changes made. I also took the liberty of adding a "season" column, since it (along with cardinal direction) is a very important difference between the two orderings. If and when I figure out how the two arrangements work together, I'll add some commentary; in the meantime, perhaps someone else can explain what I cannot. --Lode Runner 03:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
