Talk:Baghatur

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[edit] Etymology

The etymology of the word is unclear but it seems to derive from Bagh - the Old-Persian word for God, Lord (see Baghdad). Therefore it could have been a word originally minted by the Aryans and consequently borrowed by the Turkic peoples from Central Asia.

This "unreferenced speculation" is moved here in order not to be lost as it might be much closer to the thruth than the rest of the "article". Internedko 08:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You have created a false cognate without citing to any source. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia cited for the principle that "Baghatur" derives from "Bog" or "God" is inapposite. The work actually refers to the Russian word "Bogatyr". In any event, the work is over 100 years old and dates from a time when understanding of linguistics was largely in its infancy. Miller was not a linguist but rather a folkorist. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not a false cognate Brian! The word baghatur has no Turkic etymology. It stems from Bagh/Bagha which existed in Sanscrit and Old Persian and is probably of Arian origin. No scholar so far has tried to give it a Turkic etymology. However, it was mostly used by Turkic peoples and in the areas under their current or past influence. This fact is not a proof for the origin of the word. Etymology is based on linguisting links, word roots,etc. not borrowings. If you read Russian you would have read sources I provided.c.Internedko 15:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Some scholars believe the word baghatur to be derived from Bog (God), as if they were demigods; others believe that the term is derived from Tatar or Mongolian; and yet others, like Orest Miller, from the Sanskrit baghadhara (bhaga, force, happiness; dhara - to give)[3].

Can you please do not bluntly delete someoneelses work. When I have the time I will sort it out and will reference it properly. BTW Russian bogatyr comes from bagatur if didn't know. Iy is pronounsed Baghatyr in Russia. I speak Russian and have many time in the country, I can read the Russian sources therefore and I have some advantage to you in this aspect. So please do not ignore my editions as nonsense. Orest Miller as a prominent folklorist and literature historian noted the word bogatyr appears among the Russian only after the Mongol invasion which means that is was probably borrowed from the Tatars. The Tatars and Turkic people in general also borrowed it from the Arians many centuries earlier. Internedko 16:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Internedko, it is not the first time that I see you engage in original research. Please stop. The Russian word is first used in the Hypatian Codex. Vasmer says: "a loan from Old Turkic *baɣatur (whence Hung. bátor "bold"), cf. Old Bulgar βαγάτουρ, Turkish batur "commander", Mong. bagatur, Kalmyk bātr̥, etc. Derivation of the Turkic words from Iranian languages is dubitable". Case closed. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bahādur

I have removed the Persian (and Indian) name Bahādur from the list, because it has another etymology. The Persian name means "beautiful pearl" (lit.), and consists of the words bahā ("beautiful"; may also be a female name by itself) and dur(r) ("pearl"; the Pashtun tribal name Durrānī, name of the royal family of Afghanistan, has the same root). In a wider sense, it means "noble" or "special" and used to be a popular name for princes - first being used in the Persian epic Šāhnāma. The similarity to the Altaic word Bağ'atur is pure coincidence. Somehow similar to the etymologies of the words Kha'an, Khan, and Khan. While they are all very similar in pronounciation - almost identitical - the first two are derived from the Altaic word Khaqan, first used by the Zhuan Zhuan of Chinese sources (proto-Mongols). The third word, Khan, used by many South-Asian tribal chiefs, is derived from the Persian word Khāndān meaning "tribe" or "family", itself being derived from the Persian word Khāna ("house"). The similar pronounciations and similar meanings are pure coincidence. The Turkish name Bahadır is taken from Persian Bahādur and goes back to a long tradition of Persian names being adopted by Turks. Other examples are Çem (from Jamshid), Derya (from Persian Daryā, "ocean"), Ümit (from Persian Omīd, "hope") or Bahar (from Persian Bahār, "spring"). Tājik 17:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources contradict your claim. See, e.g., [1] Hobson-Jobson Glossary of Anglo-Indian Colloquial Words and Phrases, which traces the etymology of Bahadur to the Altaic Baghatur and links it with the Russian Bogatyr.

If you can cite a reliable source for your alternate etymology, by all means let's cite it. If not, then it's just original research. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

My source was not really academic. Since the Encyclopaedia Iranica (in an article written by C. Fleischer) also supports your version, I gotta admit that I was wrong. Sorry. :) Tājik 20:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)