Talk:BACS

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe it is usual form that articles with abbreviations or acronyms as titles explain in the lead section what they actually stand for, for the sake of understandability. If you believe there is a factual problem with the statement of "adopting its current name" in 1971, change the statement to reflect the truth, rather than reverting to a less clear version. Chris talk back 18:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding. I had two reasons for reverting - first, the sentence about "adopting its current name" is not clear about what adopted its current name. The relevant companies are not called "Bankers Automated Clearing Services Limited" or even "BACS Limited" any more (although new companies were created in 2004 to take over their names). Second, I am not convinced that BACS actually does stand for Bankers Automated Clearing Services any more. It is clear that that is how the abbreviation was created, but there is a difference between having an abbreviation for a longer name, and adopting the abbreviation as the name - for example, NATO is still the acronym for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, but while AT&T used to be the abbreviation for American Telephone and Telegraph Corporation, the initials are now the name of the company. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Either way, the expansion of the abbreviation, whether it refers to a company or the underlying service, needs to be specified in the lead section. I would probably argue for moving the article main title to the expansion (once it's established exactly what the correct form is, as I've seen several in circulation), since it is still (according the BBC, and a few sources in the banking industry) the name of the service. Chris talk back 09:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

As I say, I am sure that it used to be an abbreviation but I am not convinced that it is now. The companies involved have changed their names several times: the main companies now are called Voca Limited and BACS Payment Schemes Limited, but neither uses the term "Bankers Automated Clearing Services".

• A search of the BACS website find only one mention, in the FAQ, which says "Bankers Automated Clearing Services was formed in 1971 ... In 1985 it changed its name to BACS Limited and expanded its membership to include building societies."
• A search of the VOCA website finds nothing.

Just because the BBC and others incorrectly call it something does not mean we need to. In any event, in my experience, people mostly refer to "BACS" rather than anything else. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

What "people" call it and what it should be called are not the same thing. It is an acronym, and it stands for something. This should be pointed out as early in the article as possible, preferably in the lead section. Chris talk back 14:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry - to back up - you claim that "BACS" is an acronym and want the article to say up front "what it stands for". As far as I can see, the system is now called "BACS". I certainly agree that "BACS" used to stand for "Bankers Automated Clearing Services", and so the name originated as an acronym, but if BACS is still an acronym then the two companies responsible for operating the system might be expected to mention that fact on their websites. But they don't. You mention sources in the BBC and banking industry - could you provide references, please. A cursory seach on Google finds various more or less official websites calling it "[Banking|Bankers] Automated [Clearing|Clearance] [System|Services]": if "BACS" is an acronym, it would be nice to be able to provide the correct full phrase. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

That I don't tell people my middle name does not mean that I do not have one. Similarly, that you can find reference to it on their websites does not mean that it's not an acronym, neither does it necessarily mean it's not on their website at all. Maybe you weren't looking hard enough, maybe their search is broken, whatever. All it means is that you couldn't find reference to it when you looked. Incidentally, when I looked, I found one possible answer on the BACS FAQ, namely the one already listed in the article. If you feel that it genuinely doesn't stand for anything (à la INTERCAL) then qualify what we have in brackets as "originally" or "formerly" or whatever, but since some people inevitably will want to know what it might stand for, we should include it in the article in a prominent position. Chris talk back 17:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, perhaps it might be worth separating the company from the service it provides, since IME most people referring to simply "BACS" are talking about moving money, and there are parts where the article seems to mix references to the two. But that's an argument for another day. Chris talk back 17:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)