Talk:Azerbaijani people

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[edit] Origins Section

I did not make radical changes. Recent genetic testing has shown no Oghuz descent. Therefore, that part should be taken out. I have, however, left the part that says that many references refer to the Azeri people as Turkic due to their Turkic langauge, because that is correct. However, I have modified the rest to summarize the findings and I have reinserted the quotes. I made no major changes at all, I just put things as recent genetic studies have shown them to be.Azerbaijani 17:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, I think that we have too many quotes in the section! Tājik 16:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. Too many quotes! However, Koikhoi needs at least hundred quotes!!! We need to keep them temporarily and we will remove extra quotes after the compromise!--behmod talk 16:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, I think the quotes can be summarized by saying something like Encyclopaedia Brittanica, etc... etc... also concur that Azeri's and Azerbaijan was Iranian before Turkicized. I will write up a short little version here and see if everyone agrees.Azerbaijani 18:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


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The picture is very inappropriate; a more traditional picture can be used. Picture is not even mandatory, and it only limits the Azeri people’s internal diversity. 4:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Proposal

How about this: lets first try to remove the picture. then Although Azerbaijanis are designated as a Turkic people, due to their Turkic language, most scholars the origins of the Azeris are derived from earlier inhabitants of the region, including Caucasians (regarding the people of the Republic of Azerbaijan) and Iranian peoples (regarding the people of Iranian Azerbaijan).[37][38][39][40]

This view is supported by initial genetic studies conducted in the Republic of Azerbaijan that link the modern Azeris of the country primarily to their neighbors in the Caucasus and, to a lesser extent, northwestern Iran,[41] and testing of Iran's Azeri population, which has linked them to other Iranian peoples.[42]

The Iranian origin of the Iranian Azeri's is accepted amongst major encyclopaedia's such as the Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopedique Larousse, Encyclopædia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopædia of Islam, and Encyclopædia Iranica.

According to orientalist Vladimir F. Minorsky: "[as consequence of Oghuz Turkic domination in the Caucasus, beginning the twelfth century] the Iranian population of Ādharbāyjān and the adjacent parts of Transcaucasia became Turkophone while the characteristic features of Ādharbāyjānī Turkish, such as Persian intonations and disregard of the vocalic harmony, reflect the non-Turkish origin of the Turkicised population."

This is also supported by other notable scholars, such as Richard N. Frye, who states: "The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries not only Turkified Azerbaijan but also Anatolia. ... Most of the Azerbaijanis call themselves and are referred to as Turks but also insist on their Iranian identity."

How is this?Azerbaijani 19:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Maybe we should keep the quotes of the 2 scholars and integrate that of the encyclopedias in the text as you have proposed. Support Tājik 22:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I think its ridiculous to say that there is Oghuz descent because all of these major encyclopaedia's and historians clearly say that the origin is Iranic, and there was simply a language shift. This is now even supported by scientific date, of which the results do not mention any Oghuz descent, but rather Caucasian descent for those in the Republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian descent for those of Iranian Azerbaijan. I think this proposal works fine and presents the facts as they are, and it leaves out the outdated information such as "further testing in Iran..." (which was before the Cambridge University test... Sure, we can keep the text of the scholars, I will edit it.Azerbaijani 22:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
From what I can see major sources like Britannica say that Azeris are of mixed descent, which includes Caucasian people, Iranian people and Turkic tribes. The article says so and it is ok the way it is. Grandmaster 05:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Current version over-emphasizes on Turckic origin which is not based on scholars's consensus. When Britannica clearly states "The population of what is now the republic of Azerbaijan was originally Persian(Iranian) but Turkicuzed..." or when Larousse says "Azeris are descendants of older Iranophone inhabitants of the Eastern Transcaucasia", it is ridiculous to start our section with “In many references, Azerbaijanis are designated as a Turkic people, due to their Turkic language...” It misleads all readers. I am sure that every body who reads this sentence for the first time thinks that Britannica and Larousse are saying that Azeris origin is mainly from Oghuz Turks. I support Azerbaijani proposal and do not agree with the older version. --behmod talk 21:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, what are you talking about? The Britannica quote clearly says that the population was Iranian and was Turkicized.Azerbaijani 22:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Have you read Britannica article? Once again: The Azerbaijani are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern Persia. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.
According to Britannica Azerbaijanis are of mixed origin, i.e. Turkicized Caucasian and Iranian. So you cannot claim that Azeris are Turkicized Iranians, Azerbaijanis are of mixed origin. Iranian people are one of the main components of the mixture, but not the only one.Grandmaster 17:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Have you not read the first Brittanica quote posted? Anyway, both say the same thing. Also, the proposed version above mentions the Caucasian origin of the Azeri's in the Caucasus (Republic of Azerbaijan).Azerbaijani 19:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
What happened, Grandmaster? Is Britannica your new favourite source?! What happened to the Iranica quotes that you were using in the Safavid's page? What about the article written by Frye? You see ... this is what I mean when I speak of double-standards! Tājik 19:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster does this all the time! In one article he uses quotes that benefit him from a source, then in another article he tries to discredit that very same source! Grandmaster, you cannot use only things that are to your liking. This proposal is fine and everyone except you is in support of it.Azerbaijani 19:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster! If Britannica is your favorite source, why you can not accept this quote from Britannica:
The population of what is now the republic of Azerbaijan was originally Persian (Iranian) but Turkicuzed

I also remember these double–standards. When we were talking about the the Ordubad, Iranica was Grandmaster's favorite source and his Bible because it was on his side, now what happened to you that you do not talk about Iranica! I also want to ask your ideas about Larousse, Encyclopedia of Islam and Worldbook…maybe in future you may need to use them to prove your points!! --behmod talk 22:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any favorite sources. All reliable sources are good, but I explained many times that you cannot pick one good source and ignore others. We should present all existing views in a neutral manner, and present them fairly. Iranian version is fairly presented, so are Caucasian and Turkic. I see that you try to present Iranian version as the only reliable one, but that's not the way wiki works. Grandmaster 08:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Grandmaster!
We do not pick one source, could you count number of sources that we used! I do not understand why you have so much hesitation about mentioning the Iranian origins despite the fact that most sources accept the Iranian origin! If you have other untold reasons such as ...! Please do not mix academical issues with them!
Anyway, That’s good that you are trying to be neutral. Therefore, instead of playing with the words, please tell us your constructive suggestion on the Azerbaijani's suggestion to improve the older version! The older version just plays with the words to under-emphasis the Iranian and Caucasian origins and misleads readers toward the Oghuz origin by unnecessary sentences.--behmod talk 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, what are you talking about? All the encyclopaedia's mentioned, which you yourself use as sources very frequently, say that Azeri's are of Iranian descent! What other side is there to tell when all these major encyclopaedia's all have consensus on the issue.Azerbaijani 18:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, evidently, as it appears, Grandmaster doesnt seem to disagree anymore. I will give it a few more days, I know hes watching the article, other than that, everyone else is in general agreement, so I'll put it in.Azerbaijani 04:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you discuss your proposal with Tombseye, who is the main author of this article, and reach consensus with all involved users. I find the article in its original form quite accpetable and fairly representing all existing views. Grandmaster 06:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The article in its current form does not reflect the reality, which even major encyclopaedia's now accept. I will talk to Tombseye.Azerbaijani 17:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, we should remove or replace the picture of the three old men. Thanks. 18:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

The article “Azeri” should be made a redirect to this one. It was apparently created by banned User:Rovoam, because I’ve seen this exact text in Russian wiki posted by him. No need for existence of two articles on the same topic, considering that we have an FA article aboutr Azerbaijani people. Grandmaster 17:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I assume the merge went through?Azerbaijani 18:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It was just some vandal edit to the Azeri redirect, which was reverted. Grandmaster 06:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Artaxiad

Artaxiad deleted referenced info and a number of pictures from this article under a guise of a minor edit without any discussion, which is not acceptable. This is not the first time he does it. I hope nothing like that will happen again. Grandmaster 12:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Any specific reason why it was removed? [1] Artaxiad 21:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The picture looks just wrong. it should be removed. 04:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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