Talk:Avro Vulcan

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http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/uk/avro/vulcan/Vulcan.htm

Contents 1 Crew Numbers 2 Now only 20 Vulcans? 3 Engines 4 Introduction paragraph correction 5 Aerial firefighting?! 6 ...apart from the propaganda value ... 7 Pic under specifications 8 NB 9 Keys 10 Trivia 11 Performance 12 How many built? 13 You Tube Videos

[edit] Crew Numbers

According to the tables on the right of the page and other sites i have found both aircraft had a crew of 5 but under miscellaneous entries there is a report of an accident where "5 of the 7 crew were killed". Can someone confirm this? Gfad1 18:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Knowing the inside of a Vulcan cockpit fairly well, there is only space for the normal crew of five. If a Vulcan was to carry two further people, they would most like have to stand for the entire flight. Personally, I'd suggest it was mistaken reporting somewhere along the lines. Perhaps the rear three crew (who didn't have ejector seats) were killed and the pilot and co-pilot were able to eject. --Pvtparts 02:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The normal crew of the Vulcan was indeed five. When it was scheduled to land away from base, one or two crew chiefs were carried. In the rear cockpit were fixed stowage boxes either side which had safety harness fitted. These were used for the 6th and 7th seat members. Rather uncomfortable for long trips. The crew chief would spend quite some time standing on the ladder between the two pilots so he could see out of the windscreen. (Crewchief)

[edit] Now only 20 Vulcans?

"There are 21 Vulcans still relatively intact at air museums around the world."

Someone bought the Vulcan which was a gate guardian at Blackpool Airport, but it proved to be too badly corroded to be moved, so today it was broken up for scrap on the spot by one of those building-demolishers' long-reach concrete-crunchers that has a mouth like a Tyrannosaurus's. Anthony Appleyard 23:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Engines

Is it really true that the B1 versions had up to 54,000 lbs of thrust per engine, whereas the later ones only had 17,000 lbs, i.e. about 1/3rd? It doesn't seem much of a "development". Maybe someone has confused thrust per engine with total thrust? Carl w 20:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• B1. Olympus 101 11000lb, Olympus 102 12000lb, Olympus 104 13500lb. 101 fitted to early aircraft. 102 fitted to later aircraft and modified to 104 standard on overhaul. Suriving aircraft with 104 engines modified to B1A standard. B1 XA895 is often quoted as converted to a B1A but it was used for trials and was not completed to B1A standard - it retained Olympus 101s and was not rewired to enable carriage of Yellow Sun.
• B2. XH533 Olympus 200 16000lb, remainder Olympus 201/202 17000lb or 301 20000lb (for a period derated to 18000lb). 201 became 202 on fitting of Rotax rapid air starter.(XJ784 11:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Introduction paragraph correction

"The Vulcan was part of the RAF's V bomber force, which fulfilled the rule of nuclear deterrence..."

this should read: "The Vulcan was part of the RAF's V bomber force, which fulfilled the role of nuclear deterrence..."

[edit] Aerial firefighting?!

"Some retired Vulcan aircraft are now used for the role of aerial firefighting."

Where did this information come from?! (I wish it >was< true, mind you...) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.202.70.226 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 10 May 2006.

[edit] ...apart from the propaganda value ...

I feel very uneasy about this statement. It seems somhow out of place here, being more relevant to politics. While its true that only one bomb on the first Black Buck raid hit the runway, that statement needs to be qualified, because the Vulcan was on a heading that took it at right angles to the runway, and a hit in those circumstances is most unlikely, as the crew would know. One purpose of the raids were to encourage the Argentine forces to switch on their radar so that they could then be targeted with anti-radiation missiles also carried by the Vulcan. The disabled radar would then be exploited by carrier-based aircraft. It seems that this cat-and-mouse game between the Vulcan and the air defence radar was a prime raison d'etre for these raids. Another principal reason for the raids was to demonstrate to the Argentines (before the naval task force arrived in the area) that the British forces had a very long reach, and also to begin the process of damaging their morale and fighting spirit; and we all saw how well that was achieved with Port Stanley being surrendered with hardly a shot fired by its garrison. Of course there are some who rejoice in the lack of a bomb hit on the runway, but then there are always those who won't let the truth get in the way of a good story. This isn't the place for political games. Brian.Burnell 16:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The factual result of the RAF's long distance Vulcan mission(s) was one bomb crater on the runway. Although two anti-radar missles were fired no Argentinian radar locations were destroyed. While no one would deny the logistic achievement in completing the operations and their political impact, the fact is that material damage was negligible.

'Political games' I'm afraid was exactly what the Black Buck missions were; Mention could also be made of the inter-service rivalry between the RAF and Royal Navy over the Falklands operations, with the former determined not to let the latter 'run the show'. A wholly organised and co-ordinated RAF operation was deemed paramount to show the public (and more importantly the politicians holding the purse strings in the post-Falklands defence budgets) that the Air Force could contribute something to the conflict. Harryurz 09:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you have missed the point. Not all military operations are concerned primarily with material damage. Inducing fear and apprehension in an opponent has a long military tradition and history is littered with examples. One comes to mind; the Allied bombing raids on the Calais area in the months preceding the invasion of Normandy on D-Day. Those raids contributed nothing materially to the success of D-Day: the raids did not put one bomb on the Normandy beach defences. But they helped persuade the Nazi war machine to focus on an area remote from the intended landing sites, and very many Allied soldiers are alive today because of those raids.

So there was only one bomb hit on the Stanley runway that wasn't capable of operating fast jets anyway. So what! That hardly matters when set against the other outcomes, one of which was to persuade the radar operators to leave their radar switched off for fear of having it disabled. Radar switched off is as useful as a chocolate teapot, or even as useful as a destroyed radar set. At that point, when the Argentines were radar-blind a Sea Harrier strike went in; which rather disproves the assertion that inter-service rivally had a meaningful role in Black Buck.

If there is any real hard evidence of behind-the-scenes political manipulation by the RAF then let us all see it. However, in the very nature of these alleged 'behind-the-scenes' events, no one who wasn't themseves 'behind-the-scenes' can possibly know. This isn't the place for juvenile political point-scoring; and it can be a two-edged sword. Some of us have also 'been there - done that', didn't like the smell, and don't want to go there again. Brian.Burnell 12:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference for the inter-service rivalry see "Sea Harrier Over the Falklands: A Maverick at War" (Cassell Military Paperbacks S.) by Commander "Sharkey" Ward ; although the account is very much a personal one from the view of a senior Harrier Squadron commander it does have a breadth of vision regarding the often hindering tactical and strategic contraints the task force were put under in 1982. Thanks Harryurz 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pic under specifications

Is that some sort of fuel tank in the bomb bay?GraemeLeggett 15:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is a fuel tank. I'll find the dimly remembered source and post it here shortly. Brian.Burnell 00:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Found some sources. Try: [1]and click on Vulcan history. And [2] and similar tanks shown in a super Victor pic in the book by Andrew Brookes: Handley Page Victor. Published 1988 by Ian Allen ISBN 0-7110-1803-0 page 101. Brian.Burnell 01:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NB

This article doesn't seem to describe the differences between the MkI, MkIb and MkII.

Also the early ones (eg 617 squadron) were painted in anti-radiation white. (and polished by hand using "Wadpol" for Farnborough below - no mean feat)

There was a later tour of New Zealand where one caught the "step" at the beginning of the runway and was stranded for a year while it was decided whether it was cheaper to ship it back, repair it on the spot or scrap it.

There was another event at Farnborough during the period of the "Four minute warning" when some MkIs were converted to four engine start. Although they were kept fully armed during this period, the problem was the time needed to start them up. Normally this was done using a PE set for the first engine, which then started the others in turn. Ground supply connectors were provided for each engine to which dozens of lead acid batteries on a bomb trolley were plugged in. This was what was demonstrated at Farnborough and they still keep showing the television news footage from time to time. Something of a gimmick perhaps, but it became impoosible to do with the Mk2's as they were air started using a Rover gas turbine, with an on-board Palouste if a ground supply was not available.

• I can't speak for the early days but during the 1970's it wasn't possible to start the engines from the Rover AAPU. They were started as a rule using a Palouste Trolley (the Palouste wasn't onboard). An outboard engine was started, run up to 80% RPM and then the air was cross fed from that engine to start the other engines. The other method was to use the 'Rapid Start' system which used compressed air and fuel fed into a combustion chamber attached to the Rotax starter on the engine. Again the started engine was run up to 80% and etc... Although the system had been designed to enable all four engines to be started at once (there was a 'Mass Start' button on the cockpit engine start panel) it wasn't used that way - possibly went out with the end of the 'Four minute' days. Gawthorpe Dave 09:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry I got the Rover and the Palouste the wrong way round. Memory you know. Chevin 09:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Many 'Paloustes' were actually STADs built by H & S Aviation. Paloustes [French Turbomeca design] were built by Blackburn. If a Palouste or STAD were available, then memory serves we would start all engines using it. If no trolley was available, then one engine would be rapid started, run at 80% and air cross fed to the other engines for starting in turn using the engine air switches. You could run the rapid-started engine at 93% and start the others simultaneously. Mass rapids were not performed in my time but it was common enough practice on scrambles - if all rapids were serviceable - to rapid start the engines at one second intervals. I believe the Rover AAPP had originally been able to generate starting air but had been disconnected. The Rotax 'rapid' starter was developed for the Olympus 301. 201s became 202s when fitted with the Rotax starter. XJ784 16:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

XH558 (ex Waddington?) has this morning received an anonymous donation after appeals on BBC East Midlands TV were supplemented by one on BBC Breakfast News and it will be restored to air worthiness.

Chevin 08:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keys

Does anyone hav a source for "Pilots were supposed to sign out the keys for the Vulcan prior to a mission, this proved to be inconvenient until they discovered that it was possible to obtain spare keys from Halfords, a car spares shop"? I'm not sure if it's really worthy of inclusion anyway, but if it's there it should be sourced. --Guinnog 09:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember any keys. Perhaps they were kept with the golden rivet. Possibly the people who are restoring XH558 would know. Chevin 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've deleted it for now. --Guinnog 15:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There were indeed keys for the aircraft. All crewchiefs (at least on 27 Sqn for the 8 years I was on it) carried their own but the aircraft was always open when the crew arrived. (The key was used to lock the handle that opened the entrance door.)Gawthorpe Dave 09:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Added a breif about the RNZAF painting NZ roundels on a Vulcan they repaired - don't know if this is that interresting for others, I quite liked the story. Also, not sure whether the roundels were the modern Kiwi type, or a silver fern in red centre variety, (the Ohakea museum has a note asking for a photo of the repainted aircraft). Winstonwolfe 05:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I remember it coming back to us, but I don't remember any NZ roundels. Perhaps they got told to take them off again Chevin 08:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performance

Should something about it's quite staggering agility, esp at high altitude. be added? I've read some sources that state that at operation altitudes it could actually outmanouver contemporary fighters.Hdw 18:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

For something that size, it was pretty nimble at near-zero altitude too! I'm just reading an excellent account of the use of Vulcans in the Falklands War in the 1980s (it's called Vulcan 607, by Rowland White) which should provide some quotes I could add, and give the reference for. I'll suggest some on here once I've picked a few out :) – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 18:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Seeing one do low level aerobatics over the airfield at about chimney height one Christmas standby (strictly forbidden really!) was something not easily forgotten. Chevin 19:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I read Vulcan 607 recently. It's very good, despite its endorsement by Jeremy Clarkson! --Guinnog 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How many built?

Some confusion here about how many were built. The infobox says 134. Near the bottom of the article it says 138. Adding up the article's figures for each mark (and ignoring conversions) I get 110. Can someone clarify and correct please. Emeraude 11:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• I will check the figures again and then update. I suspect I have put the B.2A as conversions instead of builds. Unfortunately the total number built does vary dependiing on source. This is due to nobody apparrently being sure how many fatigue test-rig airframes were built. Gawthorpe Dave 10:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• Have checked the numbers again and updated. Was only able to find serial numbers for 44 B.1's but have left as 45 as this is the most quoted number. Removed B.2A number of conversions as there is a discrepancy in numbers between sources - 28 and 33 being given.

• Prototypes VX 770 777 (2), B1/B1A XA889-913, XH475-483, 497-506, 532 (45), B2 XH533-539, XH554-563, XJ780-784, XJ823-825, XL317-320, XL359-361, XL384-392, XL425-427, XL443-446, XM569-576, 594, 595, [596 fatigue test] 597-612, 645-657 (87+1 fts). Total 134 (135). Other FTSs without a serial may have existed. The Mk2A Vulcan is a myth. The designations B.Mk2 (Blue Steel) and B.Mk.2 (Free Fall) were sometimes adopted. XH539 was used for Blue Steel trials. XL317-320, 359-361, 392, XL425-427, XL443-446, XM569-576, 594 & 595 (25) were delivered to Scampton as B2(BS). The remainder were delivered free fall. XL384-390 (7) were converted from FF to BS and replaced XL445, 446, XM569-573 (7) which were converted to FF. Total number of B2 aircraft that could carry Blue Steel at one time or another = 33. After Blue Steel was phased out, all surviving B2(BS) converted to FF. B2(BS) XM574-576, 594, 595 were delivered with Olympus 301s. XL384-390 were re-engined with Olympus 301 on conversion to B2(BS). Remainder of B2(BS) fitted with Olympus 201 or 202. (XJ784 11:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] You Tube Videos

Several people, including me, have psoted video clips of Vulcans on You Tube and Veoh. One of mine can be found at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lcEov55rd4

Some help required for this - which engine is being tested here? I have said it is the Olympus but it could be the Tornado RB1999 because of the twin intakes. But the clip is in B&W so it suggest an earlier test, maybe even the Conway. Just love the afterburner coming on as the beastie flies past.

PS What about the rumour that the Argentine AF was to buy surplus RAF Vulcans?

Royzee 10:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Feb 24 07

Vulcan XA894 flight testing BOl22R (Olympus 320) for TSR2 at Farnborough in 1962. http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/other_photographers/894_farnborough_1.htm XJ784 13:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)