Wikipedia talk:Avoid self-references

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[edit] Self-ref external links

What about external links that discuss the Wikipedia article? For example for Seth Finkelstein there is this Guardian article "I'm on Wikipedia get me out of it". Would this be ok in an article or self-referential? -- Stbalbach 05:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally speaking (at least for people), it depends on whether Wikipedia has had a major effect on the person's public life, or if the person is notable due to their experiences with Wikipedia (in addition to any notability they may have through other methods). For non-bio articles, it depends on how much the thing being described depends on Wikipedia (for instance, it's OK to mention Wikipedia in Wikimedia Foundation but not in Elephant (contrast Talk:Elephant). --ais523 07:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Think about it this way: if you were writing this article for an unrelated site, and you yourself had no connection to Wikipedia, would you mention Wikipedia? - Jmabel | Talk 17:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig tags

I've ran into this problem on the policy page: I put up a disambig tag to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, and yet it has been removed 3 times. Disambig tags are very commonly used for this purpose - and I find it very useful. Examples: delete, guideline. I find it utterly stupid that people are deleting useful and unobtrusive disambig tags. Fresheneesz 19:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I've corrected it. It should at least have been in {{selfref}} tags, and I've tried to make the wording slightly more standard. --ais523 13:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Think about print

Quote from project page Don't forget, we want to make the creation of a print version of Wikipedia as easy as possible, so try to use terms such as "this article" as opposed to "this website", and certainly don't use terms such as "click here" (which make no sense when using a screen reader, for instance). You may also find it helpful to imagine you're reading the article in another encyclopedia. End Quote

I am kind of new but have run across this statement and simular ones a couple times. I understand the wiki pages are subject to printing and inclusion in school project and stuff. I have a couple of questions Jeepday 14:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Question - Who is the we that wants to make a print version of wikipedia?
  • Question - Are statements about "print versions" of wikipedia referening to a single page or hard copy multiple volume editions?
  • Question - How would a print version of wikipedia be a wiki?
  • Question - Why would you want to make a print version of wikipedia?
  • Question - Who would finance (and profit?) from a print version of wikipedia?
  • Question - How would you keep a print version of wikipedia updated?
There was a print version of some of the pages of the German Wikipedia a while back IIRC. As Wikipedia is GFDL, companies can created printed versions of Wikipedia and sell them if they wish, even making profit (the GFDL has no restrictions on commercial use.) I think they checked all the pages for vandalism first, and I remember talk of including a postcard so that readers could submit improvements (although I have no idea whether that was done on the German version or whether it was a proposal for the future). I don't think they intended to keep the print version updated. WP:1.0 may also be of interest if you're thinking about print. --ais523 15:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
So as I understand it from the answer above and the answer about Version 1.0 Who profits the Wikipedia community feels the very first entry on the page Wikipedia:Avoid self-references should be "Think about print" so a group of individuals with an intent to profit on the sale of millions of copies "I'd expect Version 1.0 (on DVD) to sell in the millions. Walkerma 15:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)" can more easily profit on donated labor to a free information source. Is that a fairly accurate statement of why this article should encourage editors to “think about print”? Jeepday 03:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your opposition. Wikipedia is about trying to spread free-content knowledge to everyone; bear in mind that any sold CDs, DVDs, or even printed encyclopaedias would still be GFDL and so could be redistributed freely. (For instance, I could make a CD of my favourite Wikipedia pages and sell it now if I like, but whoever bought it could make copies and give them to their friends without having to pay me anything). Not everyone in the world owns a computer, and violating WP:ASR would just make it considerably more difficult to give them this information. Besides, even on the Internet companies are already profiting from Wikipedia's content under the GFDL (see Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks); Wikipedia is more popular than them because people don't have to pay or to see adverts to access the same content. Some wikis use a non-commercial licence, but commercial use on Wikipedia is explicitly allowed (see {{db-noncom}} for an example). --ais523 11:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A new way of handling self references?

To me it seems there are two groups. Group 1 wants to have a small note at the top of all articles in the Main namespace that share the same name as an article in the Wikipedia namespace. Group A wants to remove all self references from all of wikipedia because of how they appear on websites that mirror wikipedia, as well as in publications that may contain a printed version of a wikipedia article. The two groups will always be set against each other with neither willing to comprimise. What I propose is adding new functionality to MediaWiki that will handle self references in a novel fashion. For all articles that share the same name as an article in another namespace, for example Neutral point of view, instead of having a Self Reference in the article, add a new tab to the right of Watch at the top of the page. This tab would be a link to the article in the other namespace. This method should also support some kind of markup within the article source so that articles with unique but similar names can be linked, such as Template and Template Messages. I have created a mockup that demonstrates the concept, however the final design of such a tab will be up to the community. Each namespace may have its own image, or the tab may have no image at all, that can be decided much farther on.

Image:Wp_tab.png

Please consider this as a viable alternative to the self-references that are on many wikipedia articles. --Carterhawk 07:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That couldn't handle something like the dablink to WP:POINT from Gaming the system (which is a redirect to Rules lawyer). Likewise, you wouldn't want a link from about to Wikipedia:About. --ais523 09:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems there is a dablink from about to Wikipedia:About. Oh well... --ais523 09:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
1) Why couldnt it handle it? and 2)This idea does not require total automation and probably shouldnt use it. A new type of wikimarkup for handling this would be the prefered method. --Carterhawk 10:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I've written a script (User:ais523/selfreftab.js) that makes {{selfref}}s into a tab marked 'wp' at the top of the screen, which you can use if you like. This is a bad idea to put sitewide, though, because new users (who could most use the link) are less likely to notice it. --ais523 13:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Super cool, I love it and will use it from now on, thankyou so much. I suppose now the question is, how to make it as noticable as the existing selfref template, without making it obtrusive. --Carterhawk 13:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eric Goldman

Is he independently notable? -- Zanimum 14:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. The current content suggests that he is at least marginally so. It would probably take some research on his other work to know. I'd say that, at worst, the article is harmless. - Jmabel | Talk 04:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

What about disambiguations at the top of articles which point to useful Wikipedia space pages - are these permitted? For instance a disambig to WP:DRV at the top of DRV was recently taken off? I personally think such links are helpful to newbies or generally to people who don't want to fiddle around with Wikipedia's search engine. When I was less experienced, I found searching for wikipedia policies or special pages like WP:DRV through the Wikipedia search engine a bit of a pain. What was really helpful was when there were disambig lines at the top of mainspace articles to similarly named Wikipedia special pages. (eventually I worked out that using google 10 times more effective than the wikipedia search engine, but i still look for disambigs occasionally) Bwithh 02:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Point Of View =?= biased

  • Quote:do not use specialized Wikipedia jargon (e.g. "POV" in place of "biased"),
    • biased should read bias. POV is a noun.
    • POV is the abbreviation for point of view. I have seen wikipedians using the term POV when they really mean bias. But it is not accurate. And we should not encourage it.--129.49.88.64 15:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In the Template and Category namespaces (new template message proposed)

I created a template message supposed to be used at the top of categories belonging to the Wikipedia project (see Category:Wikipedia administration for the first exemple). The aim of this template is to allow readers to clearly see at first sight that a Wikipedia project category does belong to this kind of category and what is its aim (thanks to a description given in parameter). 16@r 23:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Add a section?

Could someone add a section about referring to Wikipedia when it isn't notable. For example, On the Straight outta Lynwood page their was a mention about White and Nerdy mentioning Wikipedia when it was only one line in the song. The Placebo Effect 02:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] situations where self-references are okay

There are rare situations where an article will actually need to mention Wikipedia, or even its own Wikipedia article. This is sort of covered in this page already, in the line "Articles where Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article, for example: John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy". But "major role" is a bit too limiting, consider the recent Fuzzy Zoeller thing. It is a stretch to say Wikipedia played a major role in his life, but nevertheless his recent actions were covered by the mainstream press and I think should be mentioned in the article on him. I would propose changing the word "major" to "notable", notable in the literal sense that the article would do well to make a note of it. --W.marsh 18:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject's Collaberation of the Month/Week

Some Wikiproject's COTM have banners added to the article space. I really dislike these and would much prefer them to be added to the talk , rather than the article space. See The Maltese Falcon (1941 film), Mormon pioneers for examples. Note: the main COTM does add it's tag to the talk page. I tried to change this for the tax wiki project Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Taxation#Taxation Collaboration of the Month but the projects members still wished to keep this on the main article space. I still disagree. Can we build some concensus on this. GameKeeper 22:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm one of the project members at WikiProject Taxation that disagrees with moving the banner to the talk space. I think it falls under the area of "Limited use of self-references are sometimes found in the Template namespace" as "Use of templates in the article namespace that self-reference because they link to articles in the user, talk, or Wikipedia namespace or that are special articles." The COTM is just like any other cleanup, expand, NPOV, etc banner. I prefer it on the article mainspace as it draws more attention and helps promote the collaboration. However, I feel the banner should be small (examples Tax, Muhammad Ali, Mormon pioneers, List of United States Representatives from California). Collaborations are difficult enough as it is without hiding them on the talk space. As a discussion for this group, I'd suggest we look at this from the point of - Does it violate Avoid self-reference policy? If it does not (which I believe), then I would leave the decision of this template placement standard to the WikiProject Council. Such a policy would effect many WikiProjects. Morphh (talk) 01:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I would also agree that current collaboration banners should be on the article page and not the talk page. Such a banner serves a similar purpose to {{current}}, indicating that the article is currently undergoing a period of heavier editing than normal and that the contents of the article may change quickly. However, once the collaboration period is over, the banner should be removed from the article page. Slambo (Speak) 11:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm getting sick of this

Can we please put in big letters somewhere on this page that this policy does not prevent us from having articles that are related to Wikipedia like Wikipedia and Jimbo Wales? People seem to keep not realizing that this is just a MOS issue. JoshuaZ 02:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the letters in Wikipedia:Avoid_self-references#Writing_about_Wikipedia_itself are big enough. If someone is misciting the policy, just calmly link that. I'm not sure I'd categorise it as "just an MoS issue" - it's important for a number of reasons besides writing style. Deco 19:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion, maybe...

Before I make my suggestion, let me first explain how I believe this guideline works. (This way you won't have to waste time reading a suggestion based on a faulty premise.)

  • Unacceptable entry to [[WP:X]] : "As it says in [[WP:Y]] the values of..." Directly sourcing another Wikipedia article would be wrong.
  • Acceptable same situation: "See also: [[WP:y]]" Providing a link to another Wikipedia article is acceptable.

If I'm correct, I'd propose changing this guideline's name to WP:NWC or WP:No Wikipedia Citations in the interest of clarity. I've found myself wondering, from some comments I've read, if some people assume no self references means "don't reference yourself". Anynobody 06:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Almost, but not quite. The 'acceptable same situation should be' "{{selfref|See also: [[WP:Y]]}}", which means that mirrors can automatically remove the link if they don't copy WP:-space pages. --ais523 09:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sudden Additions?

Am I just noticing this...but it seems {{selfref}} is getting thrown at the top of a lot more articles than it used to...I mean, I happened to notice RFA. ^demon[omg plz] 11:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

To some extent, it's due to a common solution for cross-namespace redirects; redirecting them to a related article and putting {{selfref}} on the article aids navigation but doesn't land people in projectspace by accident. --ais523 09:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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