Talk:Aurora aircraft

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This article deals with a military black project.
Because of the nature of such projects, the most authoritative sources (any involved governments and defense contractors) may not even acknowledge its existence. The most reliable sources may be highly speculative.

Please ensure that the article is well and reliably sourced and does not contain unverifiable information or vague predictions.


Contents

[edit] Graphic

The graphic is the most rediculous thing I've ever seen. It looks like a flying killer whale. 22:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

None of the graphics in the article convey the shape of the airplane. If there is any shape that is. -broodlinger 24.184.67.122 22:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General discussion

I want to add some reference to what many say Aurora really was ( the codename for the B-2 fly-off), I figure a separate section of the article would be more appropriate?

PPGMD


The 'fireball' video looks quite like sunlight reflecting off a contrail at sunset. 67.187.48.82 20:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Or swamp gas from Venus reflecting off a weather balloon. Joffeloff 12:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Added new information from Popular Science's new issue. Feel free to refute it. Jerr 01:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a competition. PPGMD 01:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gibson Sighting - how could a KC-135 offload methane fuel to an Aurora

I want to add something to the Gibson sighting section that poses a serious question to this formation. How would a KC-135 Stratotanker offload fuel in liquid methane form to the Aurora? This puts serious holes in the Gibson sighting. The Gibson sighting needs to be subjected to heavy censure.

--Mickrussom 16:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Who says this vehicle used liquid methane? You seem to forget that everything about this vehicle is pure speculation.

--Kelly Bushings 10:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In order to go mach 6+ you would not be using a turbofan, and higher speed scram/ramjets cannot be run easily on kerosene.

What I'm saying is that the "Spotting" of the wedge is dubious. On one hand he claims to see a KC-135 with the old engines, on the other hand we get a nebulous description of a flying wedge. I think casting doubt with regards to how the types of fuel required to fuel scram/ram jets and the fact this unlikely offload able from a KC-135 is warranted.

The other possibility is that a KC-135Q which can offload JP7 fuel for the P&W J58 engines could be what is involved here. I believe most Q's were turned into KC-135T after a re-engining.

I just get the sense from all the talk here that this was probably an SR-71 under a KC-135Q or KC-135T. Even though the SR-71 had been retired by April 1989 and by some other reports "The United States Air Force retired its fleet of SR-71s on January 26, 1990", the SR-71 was clearly restorable as it was revived from 1995 to 1998.

To me this article should focus more on facts, like the line item on the budget - not "sightings." Much has been done in the article to boost the sightings credibility, something should be done to deconsruct the speculation as well.

--mickrussom 17:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Ramjets will happily run on kerosene, so your JP7 (a triple-distilled kerosene with teflon additive) speculation is more than plausible, but you are assuming (again) that this vehicle, as described, does Mach 6+. Check out a Handley Page HP.115: same planform, very subsonic. You also assume ram /scram jets in use. This is again speculation. You could also speculate that it could just be boring old J58s (a bypass turbojet) or an over/under combination engine as planned for the XF-103.

It was not an SR-71. Nor was the tanker a re-engined model. In the sighting situation as described the formation was silhouetted against high level cloud, essentially an aircraft recognition gift, but with no detail visible. Also, a Q was at Mildenhall around the same time.

--Kelly Bushings 16:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Minor point - how do we know there was a KC-135Q at Mildenhall? This being an encyclopaedia, does anyone have a verifiable reference for that? --Nickj69 17:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually that whole section (last three points on Gibson sighting) are pure supposition. I'm going to remove them. The Gibson sighting is notable because it was reported in the press and am happy to leave the factual bulk of it (i.e. what he was reported to have seen). --Nickj69 18:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I followed discussions on this subject since the nineties, when speculations about the existence of Aurora came up. Although I appreciated any attempts from aerospace-buffs to make sense of all these sonic booms and sightings and found it sensible to assume the existence of a secret hypersonic reserach program, there was one thing I never understood. Usually, in all these discussions the retirement of the SR-71 was used as a major argument for the existence of a hypersonic follow-up. However, from a purely operational point of view, it would have been much more sensible for the US military in the eighties to develop a SR-71 follow-up with the same top-speed but much more stealth capability. According to infos reported in Bill Sweetman's "Aurora". back in the eighties the soviets were developing anti-aircraft-missiles with the capability to intercept the SR-71. As the F-117 was in development at the same time it would have been logically for the US military to lean on this stealth technology as the most promising option for a SR-71 follow-up. That doesn't exclude that they were also starting programs for Hypersonic technology, SSTO or TSTO concepts. It makes sense that the USAF gave these concepts a serious priority after the challenger desaster. But as these concepts were still at their very beginnings at this time, and as aircraft development usually takes a decade or so, it would have been unresonably to see them as the only realistic option for a new recon aircraft that would have been needed until the end of the eighties.
Therefore, if a follow-up was in service at the time when the SR-71s were mothballed in 1991, it would have probably been a very stealthy Mach 3+, not a more or less still experimental hypersonic whatsoever. And to my opinion, this non-hypersonic but highly stealthy SR-71-follow-up was the plane that Chris Gibson observed in 1989 over the North Sea and that was mentioned - but censored - in the UAP-Study of the British MoD. 141.2.22.211 13:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pure speculation

The article is self-admittedly pure speculation, and is in desperate need of references and weeding out of weasel words. Sentences such as There is a recent report that it may use a pulse detonation wave engine. are just laughable without a link to the report. I can only spot one solid fact in this article: namely, that an item marked "Aurora" appeared on a Pentagon budget. Could some knowledgeable aircraft buff mark all the other claims with links to who is doing the claiming? jmstylr 12:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


I took out some of the wilder claims and toned down some of the language. Basically this is an urban myth story. John

It also bears stating that the speeds attained by this alleged aircraft are approximate to those of the X-15. At a certain point the altitude required to attain a certain speed with reasonable efficiency and heat control becomes so high that the craft becomes a spacecraft. The whole idea of this Aurora nonsense is flawed.


The basic problem is clearly visible: this article (like others about black projects, i.e. Blackstar, TR-3 Manta) is not refering to real entities but to hypothesis. Concepts like Blackstar, Aurora, et al., are conceptual constructions, not observations. They are constructed by airplane-buffs to make sense out of a bundle of rumours, hearsay, sightings (alleged or real) and a very small number of hard facts (budget lines, sonic booms, retirement of SR-71, etc.). The hypothetical status is indicated in the introduction, and that's ok so far.
However, what's still missing in the rest of the article, is this: The available "data" (I will call it so just for the argument) is not really conclusive. Especially, there is no evident pattern in the data, as the single observations and statements are not in a way empirically interrelated which is independent from the hypothesis one uses to interpret them. For example, if psychiatrists are detecting a new syndrom, they are describing a pattern of symptoms which are associated by causal relations and which can be observed in this special pattern. The validity of such a hypothetical pattern can be empirically tested by statistical methods, i.e. Cluster analysis. But this is not the case for the data we're speaking about in the field of black projects.
As I just wanted to demonstrate in my posting to the section above, Aurora is for example not the only possible explanation for the Gibson-sighting. One can easily make a case of it's own from the Gibson-sighting. And there's no way to decide which classification is true or false. The same is true for the UAP-report of the british MoD. It's sensible to interpret a certain, censored part of this report as evidence for the existence of two "black" US-planes and for the assumption, that these planes could have been visble to observers in the UK at one time or another. But this evidence does in no way deliver any further informations. As it was censored, it is absolutely unclear which planes they had exactly mentioned in their report. So one could use it as "support" for Aurora, or for Blackstar, or for any other hypothetical plane, or for any combination.
And that's what's - in my humble opinion - still wrong with this article. It's not only explaining the meaning of a concept that has relevance for understanding certain discussions in the subcultures of airplane-buffs and others. That's something the wikipedia should do. But I have the impression, that this article as a whole (with the exception of the introduction) suggests a level of empirical validity for the Aurora-hypothesis that is simply not justified. There should a least be a "Final conclusion" underlining again the inconclusiveness of the "data". It would be even better, if "data" and "interpretations" or "Interpretations proposed by different authors" would be described in different sections. 141.2.22.211 14:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
In other words, the Aurora doesn't exist?
When I was a kid, the F-19 "Aurora" was a constant subject in aircraft magazines, but the F-19 never made an appearance in real life. The most interesting words in this Aurora article are the words "$2.3 billion". -broodlinger 24.184.67.122 22:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blackstar

The article needs to be removed and/or revised based upon the revelations provided by Avaition Week. [1] The plane sighted in 1989 is probably the Blackstar "carrier" plane. Matt V

We have an article about Blackstar based on the Aviation Week story. While SR-3 and Aurora sound, in some respects similar, we've no way of knowing that they are the same, or whether both or either actually exists. A lot said about Aurora doesn't match SR-3 (the former reportedly being an airbreathing hypersonic recon plane with exotic engines, the latter a fairly conventional supersonic aircraft used only (seemingly) to lift a spaceplane. Merging the two based on the incredibly scant evidence would be like merging yeti with bigfoot. I've put in a mention of Aurora into Blackstar, mentioning that they might really be the same; I think this artcle should have a (similarly equivocal) mention of Blackstar. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 15:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North Sea "seismic" activity

"3) Something in the air was triggering seismic sensors in the south-west United States."

What has this to do with something happening in the North Sea (halfway around the world)? If the mystery plane was causing shock waves that registered on seismographs, then I'm thinking it would shake the hell out of the eastern UK and Norway, or at least reach the local papers, before the faintest remnants reached seismic sensors in the US. I'm cutting this. Hasty Fool 17:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Not so hasty there... A quick surf will show up that such seismic activity has been registered in the North Sea area. One such event was over Texel Island off the Dutch coast. Also an unidentified sonic boom was blamed for the deaths of Norwegian soldiers in an avalanche. Cut away, keeps me amused.

--Kelly Bushings 10:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK MoD report

I'm an interested agnostic on Aurora but I've added in a section on the newly released UK MoD report because unusually in this rumour-filled area it is an official report which deals with sightings of "Black" projects. I am asking the MoD to consider releasing the blanked out sections. I've also tweaked the line saying "no conclusive evidence supporting the existence of a hypersonic plane has ever reached the public domain" in case it came as a bit of a surprise to old X-15 pilots. Newsnightmeirion

Very interesting news article. Also, I've linked some of the words & expressions in your text. Some of them, such as "transatmospheric", remains to be defined or have their articles created on Wikipedia. --Henrickson 09:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Egyptian Aircraft?

I am not sure why, under the video game section, it describes and "Islamic" aircraft. I do not believe that aircraft can become Islamic, any more than the Aurora is christian...

Here, "Islamic" refers to Fundamental/Extremist Islam, and members of insurgent militias following to such ideology (which most likely fights to remove foreign armed presence from their country and topple the government to replace it with a theocracy). The interceptor aircraft the insurgents use are probably stolen or captured from the Egyptian Air Force (where such a feat, if happening in real life, would be considered very spectacular, formidable and terrifying — can you imagine dozens of fighter jets (fully armed with guns, bombs & missiles) in the hands of terrorists?), or leased from another country's air force. (Whether the insurgents are trained in combat aircraft or not, or hired mercenary pilots, is another question.) --Henrickson 21:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have the game in question. The game was made in the mid-90s (pre War on Terror), and the scenario is a civil war between the radicalised Egyptian military ("Islamic Egyptian") and the secular Egyptian government ("Arab Egyptian"). FiggyBee 23:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] templates

This article currently has three templates trying to tell the reader that its a sack of bollocks - I believe one is sufficient. The 'black project' template is a new one I haven't seen before. We should decide which ones to keep. Joffeloff 15:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I like the black project one, but I don't believe it's strong enough. Also the clean up one would still hold true, this articles needs alot of work. PPGMD 15:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It is quite specific though - it states that the article does NOT contain speculation, it states that the article contains the only 'verifiable' information, in which case this one will need a lot of weeding. I think what it needs is citations, especially for all the aviationleak references, the oil worker spotting, the MoD report, and so on. Joffeloff 15:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm I might add something to the effect, that any information here may be found as false in the future, and should not be relied on as the sole source for future research. PPGMD 15:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shortened the Intro

I removed alot of the junk from the Intro, just way too much information, much of it contradictory, and confusing. Intros should be short and to the point. PPGMD 11:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro better for removing specualtion but key elements are hypothesis and the only two bits of evidence from official sources especially as MoD 2006 relates to 2000 not 1986 and shows controversy is not just ancient history.(I'm an Aurora agnostic) Newsnightmeirion 13:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Just keep the intro short and sweet IMO, and about what people themselves believe the aircraft to believe, evidence, or the lack there of should be in the article itself. PPGMD 20:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The claimed Mach numbers for Aurora (if it exists) change every day on this site. Can we just agree on Mach 4+? I have also changed United Kingdom air defence area back to UK air defence area because it has a specific - unambiguous - military meaning and that's what it says in the report. Newsnightmeirion 07:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Falcon Project

In the section on the UK MoD report there is the sentence, "The Mach 8-12 aircraft may refer to what the USAF announced as the Falcon Project in 2003 but this is the first official mention of a USAF plan for an Aurora-like Mach 4-6 vehicle." However, there is nothing about this 'Falcon Project' that I can find on Wikipedia or the internet. Can somebody provide a link for some information about it? If there is info about it, and it's a real project, it should have its own Wikipedia article. Grant 09:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

If you just Google Falcon USAF hypersonic or go the DARPA site you'll find plenty.

[edit] Aurora/SR71 image ?????

Image is not Aurora or SR71 but X48B - the scaled down Blended Wing Body built at Cranfield UK for Boeing Shadow Works - being wind-tunnel tested at Langley before flight trials. X48B is 8.5% model of giant 90 metre wingspan proposed military transport/airliner. Newsnightmeirion 11:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BBC paper

I think the BBC paper is laughable. Who drew all this little crosses? It looks like a hoax from a 12-year-old. -- 790 12:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

In this case 790 you have misread the article. Read it again and you will see that this is not a BBC paper but a British Ministry of Defence secret document which has recently been declassified in response to a Freedom of Information request from the academic David Clarke. The first reference in the article takes you directly to the MoD website where you can pore through the hundreds of pages of the UAP report. The little crosses were drawn by someone in MoD - presumably someone with a very high security clearance - before the rest of the report was declassified. The idea of some Defence Intelligence spook sitting there with a ruler drawing lines of crosses by hand is comical but nonetheless it is exactly what happened. I have asked MoD to reveal what is in those lines but of course they have declined to do so. The Americans usually white out text which they want to redact before declassifying reports, The British usually put marker lines through the text before release - although that sometimes can leave clues which allow us to work out the original meaning. None of this tells us whether Aurora or anything similar exists - all it tells us is that the British MoD discussed whether two covert American projects might be mistaken for UFOs - and they still do not want to reveal their speculation about those projects. Newsnightmeirion 14:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok you're right I misread the source. Still, this whole thing just doesn't look proper. There's no use in drawing this little crosses after blanking the text. Furthermore, at least one of the documents ([2], p5) has handwritten notes saying "not ralevant" (sic!). What could be the relevance of a document they would leave to such a dork to prepare it before publication? -- 790 17:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm always right but seriously "ralevant" is a surprisingly common mistake. You'll find it in printed documents issued by Harvard University, World Bank and US Department of Defense let alone handwritten notes which are more like quick email comments often full of mistakes as I'm sure you would acknowledge - your use of "this" instead of "these" twice for instance. As a veteran of many an FOI request I can tell you that the "not relevant" applies to the names of officers which are redacted on the grounds that they are irrelevant not to the relevance of the document. Defence Intelligence spent a long time putting together this report. Whether you or I think that was a worthwhile expenditure of British taxpayers money is neither here nor there. It is a proper report which aimed to settle the question of the UFO question to the satisfaction of the UK MoD.Newsnightmeirion 22:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

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