Talk:Augusto Pinochet/Archive 5

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Contents

Should this page be unprotected?

  • Unprotect Augusto Pinochet - See Talk:Augusto Pinochet. Veriverily isn't explaining his objections to text he keeps reverting over and over again. 172 03:59, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
    • The page is already protected. Is this a request for unprotection? --Michael Snow 14:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
      • Yes, please unprotect this page. 172 21:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
        • Sorry, but in spite of your efforts I don't think the discussion has reached enough of a resolution right now to avoid a resumption of the revert war as soon as the page is unprotected. --Michael Snow 21:54, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
          • Veriverily only chooses to lodge personal attacks against me as long as he manages to censor any facts that he feels might reflect negatively on the U.S. by means of a page protection. There cannot be a discussion unless the page protection is lifted. If we have to wait for Veriverily, the page might as well be protected permanently. 172 22:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
          • Refer to the large number of people who have put effort into this article - Ed Poor, Cadr, Cantus, Eloquence - while 172 seeks to sabotage our efforts at working together and impose his own agenda. The Talk pages are available, so one can see 172 is lying. Although I have aired my frustration with 172 several times there, the issues have also been much discussed by me and others (i.e., "only" yeah right). As Cadr said on this very page [1], "Agree with VV. A lot of constructive work was being done on the page; the problems are almost enitrely down to the user he mentions." (in ref to 172) As soon as the protection is off, 172 will continue his activities. -- VV

Unprotect Augusto Pinochet. Cadr and Veriverily refuse to back down one inch, and no one else seems to be paying any attention. Is this page just going to be protected indefinitely? 172 19:05, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

  • See brief discussion below and, for the patient, that at Talk:Augusto Pinochet. It tells a very different story. - VV 22:28, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
  • To summarize, it is 172 who refuses to budge and alter one word of the intro he wrote. All other parties have written several draft intros each to try to accommodate objections and concerns. 172 dismisses these efforts as "partisan bickering" and "bullshit". - VV 22:30, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
    • Veriverily's comments are misleading at best. "All other parties," according to Veriverily, are the users (Cadr, EdPoor, AstroNomer, and himself) voting in the minority in the most recent round of polling. His preferred version does not have a "consensus" behind it. This was really the winning position in the poll: "Yes, it should be asserted, in both the intro paragraph and the CIA role in coup section, and not marked as controversial." 172 02:25, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
      • Consensus had been reached before 172 started trolling; the poll was started afterwards and brought in random buddies of 172. The poll voters he cites consist mostly of users who had no role in editing or contributing to the page and visibly no understanding of the issues and were voting ideologically. Even so, the margin was only 8-5, far from overpowering. Furthermore, one does not vote on whether to be neutral. - VV 06:44, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't "brought in" to vote. Nor was I voting "ideologically", rather my vote was determined by my familiarity with the issues. Perhaps instead of attacking anyone who voted differently from him V V should present more compelling arguments AndyL 10:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Who am I attacking? And saying I "should present more compelling arguments" supports my supposition that you were not aware of the talk of these issues, because if so you would have seen the thousands and thousands of words arguing these very points. - VV 23:20, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't "brought in" to vote, I wasn't voting "ideologically" and I have made (minor) contributions to the article. Ericd 12:31, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of who the poll may have "brought in", I think part of the purpose of listing this page at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, where it has appeared quite regularly for a while, is to "bring in" opinions from members of the community. Regardless of whose "random buddies" they are. Nor do I see why the fact that people have had little or no previous role in contributing to the page disqualifies their opinions, or shows that they have no understanding of the issues.

With that in mind, I don't see anything approaching a consensus for either version.

There is no consensus behind Veriverily's intro? So I am not a liar when I state otherwise? Veriverily stated, "Refer to the large number of people who have put effort into this article - Ed Poor, Cadr, Cantus, Eloquence - while 172 seeks to sabotage our efforts at working together and impose his own agenda. The Talk pages are available, so one can see 172 is lying." Can you ask this user to stop slandering me and giving misleading summaries of developments on the page so as to instill prejudice among other users against my comments? 172 07:05, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Even assuming that a consensus was ever "reached" (before or after the poll), the debates and revert wars prove that the consensus was never maintained. About the poll specifically, I note that the results as currently presented are heavily refactored, because the poll itself led to a revert war on this talk page. I don't question the validity of any individual user's vote, but I can't see a disputed poll, among a small sampling of Wikipedia users, as a permanently binding determination of consensus.

I do note that AndyL and Ericd were "brought in" (that is, specifically notified by 172 of this discussion) to validate their votes. Not that anybody should object to that, but I do hope that since they are now aware the debate rages on, they might stick around with the discussion to help us move toward a consensus. --Michael Snow 16:39, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Michael Snow, just to clarify the points I made which you disputed: Bringing in members is one thing, but campaigning specifically for one view does taint the results (you seem aware of this). As for the "no understanding of the issues", I was referring to the fact that some who voted in the poll gave reasons for their vote which showed they were wholly unaware of the ongoing discussion. For instance, giving the GWU link (which has already been cited and rebutted), claiming the US acknowledges that the CIA instigated the coup (which had been specifically contradicted by citing a CIA briefing), and saying that there is "no controversy" over it, when there clearly is. - VV 23:20, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Veriverily, you know very well that the intro does not refer to the coup as 'U.S.-instigated,' something about which there would really be controversy. The issue here is an intro that refers to U.S. backing, something about which there is no controversy. Your comments are addressing a non-issue. 172 07:09, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Once again, 172 ignores the fact that "US-backed" is ambiguous and misleading. See the discussion above...Cadr
And (for those who just tuned in) "US-backed" being one of the few things said in the first sentence strongly suggests the US's role was rather significant (merely "wanting it to happen" would not warrant such placement). VV 11:14, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Another poll

Is the assertion of U.S. backing for the coup misleading or controversial in Augusto Pinochet/intro (succinct version), even in the presence of the footnote?

This is loaded phrasing. I do not consider it misleading, but the simple fact that this discussion is taking place is proof that it is controversial. Eclecticology 17:07, 2004 May 19 (UTC)
Ec, this is asking whether or not the assertion is controversial, as opposed to an undisputable fact, not whether U.S. actions were 'controversial'. 172

[IMO "even in the presence of a footnote" should not be in the question, because some of us do not want a footnote even if we think it goes some way towards clearing up the NPOV issue. Cadr ]

Yes:

  1. By 172's own definition (see the discussion in section 10) the possible meanings of "backed" include "aided", so the word is misleading. 172 should also note that readers of this article are unlikley to look up every word they read in a dictionary, and should take the context of the word into account (as VV points out in his previous comment). Cadr
    My own definition to "back" (v) is American Heritage's, which is to provide support, assistance, or encouragement for (a contending force). It does not necessarily entail the provision of "aid." Cadr is putting words in my mouth; I said "or" as opposed to "and" when I has written the word "aid" once (very hastily). 172 11:49, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    The fact that you said "and" instead of "or" is of no significance, as I've pointed out already. If one possible meaning of "US-backed" is "US-supported" or "US-assisted" or "US-aided" (going on 172's earlier, different definition), the word is misleading. (There is no conclusive evidence that the US assisted/aided the actual 1973 coup). Cadr
  2. The US didn't back the coup. Am I missing something here? Why would we say they backed it if they didn't? POV perhaps? Sam [Spade] 12:21, 19 May 2004 (UTC)


No:

  1. I recommend that respondents look up the dictionary definition for backing (n) or to back (v). 172 11:31, 19 May 2004 (UTC) "Backing" does not mean "instigated," "initiated," "orchestrated," "engineered," etc. 172 11:31, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  2. This entire debate is utter nonsense. The historical record is clear: Nixon and Kissinger wanted Allende out and the CIA went about engineering it by funding the opposition, spreading FUD, and the like. The day of the coup, the American reporter Charles Horman was in Viña del Mar, near the port of Valparaíso, which was a key base for both the Chilean coup plotters and US military and intelligence personnel who were supporting them. He spoke with several US operatives and took notes documenting the role of the United States in overthrowing the Allende government. Several days later he was arrested and executed by the Chilean armed forces. His family believes this was because he (accidently) bore witnesss the US role in the affair. 'Backing'? Yep, I'd call it backing, although perhaps we could debate how active a role the CIA et al played in the coup, but nobody is claiming that the CIA itself bombed La Moneda -- Viajero 16:03, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    OK, so where is all the evidence for this? (I expect it's all correct, but so far no-one has linked to any hard evidence.) Cadr
    Cadr, this is a poll, not a debate. Please allow other users to chime in. 172 18:17, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    Erm yes...and this is not an argument ;) Other users are free to chime in, anyway. Cadr
    cf: Missing by Thomas Hauser (1982) ISBN 01400.64532 (Sorry, not everything in the world is online) -- Viajero 19:57, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    OK, so is there any evidence in it more concrete than the beliefs of a reporter's family? (Again, I would not be at all surprised if it does contain such evidence, but no-one has yet explained what it is, even vaguely.) Cadr
  3. I thought that the U.S. (unofficial but institutional) support for the coup in Chile was widely known and uncontroversial. Are people disputing the facts or the choice of words? Certainly this issue must be in the article. Slrubenstein 15:27, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    • See the discussion if you want to know what the controversy is. (That is, you should have already.) VV 21:31, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
    • It deals with the wording in this version of the intro, which VeryVerily and Cadr deem "controversial" and "misleading," regardless of the footnote and the definition of 'backing'. 172 15:50, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
      I don't find it particularly misleading with the footnote, but I don't like the footnote for independent reasons (i.e. that it would be far better to replace it with a proper explanation of US involvement, rather than trying to clarify single vague adjective). Cadr
  4. Wik 15:33, May 19, 2004 (UTC)
  5. Hephaestos|§ 15:35, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  6. Infrogmation 15:48, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  7. Like Slrubenstein, I'd never thought this was controversial until I saw the argument here. john 16:06, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  8. Ruhrjung 16:32, 19 May 2004 (UTC) No, it's the other way around. It's an issue of Wikipedia's credibility outside of the US. (Inside the US I recognize that not so few citizens, ignorant of US foreign politics, could deem this issue controversial – I know such people myself.)
    • Yes, yes, more about us dumb ignorant Puritan Americans and how we lack the sophistication and wisdom of you European intellectuals. Now, any substantive counterarguments, perchance? (P.s. You acknowledge "not so few"; see how that connects to NPOV policy?) VV 21:31, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
      • Puritan yes – dumb no, not except for in your rhetoric above. Since I was 17 and started full-time apprenticeship, I admit to have studied the foreign language of the country where I live in any way resembling school. "Intellectual" - just the right accusation to throw at me! Common Americans being more ignorant of their country's foreign politics than the electorates of other democracies, that's a fact. The arguments are very well presented by plenty of others. There is no need to repeat those. I added what I hold for the most important, i.e. that of Wikipedia's credibility (outside of the US). Ruhrjung 17:41, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
        • Supposed credibility over neutrality? Once again, I think you confuse your own personal opinions with those of the "rest of the world" (i.e., not the US). Which electorates of other democracies do you refer to, anyway? India? Nigeria? Oh no, wait, I know which you mean. P.s. I can't make head or tail of the "I admit..." sentence. VV 07:42, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
  9. AndyL 16:36, 19 May 2004 (UTC) Even conservative analysts admit the US was involved in the coup. The only reason for claiming this question hasn't been settled is POV.
  10. Eclecticology 17:07, 2004 May 19 (UTC) Not misleading. Under protest against using polls as a way to establish facts.
  11. Everyking 19:11, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  12. –Hajor 20:18, 19 May 2004 (UTC) Not misleading; certainly not controversial in my neck of the woods. But not particularly happy about voting to establish facts, or about call-outs to footnotes in articles. Uncle Ed's suggestion below would be useful, if only we could get the right quotes (doubtful).
  13. Secretlondon - I had no idea people still disputed this.
    • Welcome to the outside of the box. VV 21:31, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
  14. I wasn't going to vote on this, because I thought the poll question missed the mark. The issue isn't whether a particular wording is misleading, etc., but rather what's the best way to present the subject. I don't like the footnote. I thought the best approach was an in-text summary in the introduction, avoiding the word "backed," even though living with some nuance made for a longer intro. To that end I essayed a revision of the first-created sandbox. I tried to meet Cadr's objection to my initial version. Now, however, I find that VeryVerily has edited it so as to eviscerate any discussion of this issue in the intro.
    It seems, then, that each side has its own sandbox and the two sides continue to talk past each other. With regard to the intro, 172 wants a flat statement of "backed," somewhat qualified in a footnote, while VV wants a mere allusion to what "many believe," with no indication in the intro that they have any factual basis for their beliefs. As between those two extremes (CIA role stated as fact versus CIA role stated as mere unsupported opinion, albeit opinion of "many"), I prefer the former, although the specific wording of the footnote would need some work.
    I still think the footnote is, by its nature, an inelegant solution. It would be better for the text of the intro to state a few key evidentiary points, including the CIA's denial, rather than present the conclusion as an established fact. If other people agree with me, and say so and/or restore key data to the original intro sandbox, then perhaps we have a chance of reaching consensus on that approach. Until then, I'm going to turn my attention to editing the "succinct version" of the intro.
    Finally, on the issue of recruitment: 172 did urge me to vote in this poll. I ignored his urging for the reasons stated above. I have now been "recruited" to vote by VV's edit, not by 172's electioneering. JamesMLane 00:13, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
    • It's your vote, but puzzling reasoning: you're not voting on the question asked in the poll. Anyway, the whole point of the sandbox is to experiment. I gave my reasons (several times) for my edits, which (perhaps ironically) largely come to succintness: the intro does not need to lay out the evidence, that's what the article for. The intro serves to summarize. Fercrissakes, look at the article, nearly half of which is now about the CIA. VV 00:36, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
      • My vote is that the wording being polled is not misleading (the question asked in the poll) but that the wording also isn't good. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I agree that the intro should summarize, not present the whole discussion, but it involves striking a balance between, on the one hand, going into too much detail about the facts, and, on the other hand, simply saying "many believe" with no allusion whatsoever to the facts until later on. I don't think your edit version makes any attempt to strike that balance. Your version isn't a summary, it's a reference. My idea was that something taking up nearly half the article, as you put it, deserves a bit more space in the intro. I tried to put in a few critical points that would, for example, in response to SamSpade's inquiry, show that there are indeed references available, while also noting the CIA's denial and leaving the full elaboration for later in the article. My hope was that we could work out a consensus summary. Perhaps I was unduly optimistic. JamesMLane 02:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Backing

Backing suggests strong support, implying aid, financial, military, what-have-you. Anyone got any references showing anything like that? Sam [Spade] 12:24, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

There is evidence both ways and no consensus, which makes it hard to be both neutral and succinct. In addition, as the discussion above shows, people with different opinions can see different shades of meaning in a term like "backing." Therefore, I think we're stuck with having to go into somewhat more detail about what's known. Two specific points: (1) The heavy emphasis on the CIA could give the misleading impression that the CIA was running a rogue operation; the important issue is the role of the United States in Pinochet's accession, not the role of the CIA, so I've added the Nixon statement. (2) My response to Cadr's edit summary: The CIA has admitted advance knowledge of the coup. From CBS's report on the documents declassified during the Clinton Administration: "The CIA had prior knowledge of the plot that overthrew Allende three years later but denies any direct involvement. CIA spokeswoman Anya Guilsher said, 'We were aware of coup plotting in 1973, but we did not instigate it.'" (CBS News story and, to the same effect, CNN's story) Do we need to insert a citation into the text? That seems a little clunky given that this point, at least, is no longer seriously disputed even by the right-wingers now that the CIA has admitted it. JamesMLane 13:48, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Secretary Powell evidently agrees. - Hephaestos|§ 16:22, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
That's only the nine-hundredth time (approx) Powell has been cited. He was discussed recently above. To summarize, he doesn't "admit" anything specific, and he wasn't part of the coup anyway, so his opinion is his own. VV 21:39, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't see this on the talk page. How about just saying that the CIA has stated/admitted that it planned for a coup, rather than giving it as a plain fact? Cadr
Ah, you've added the cites. Thanks for the compromise :) If you like, I'd have no objection if you removed the actual links to the sources (if you feel these are a bit too in-depth for the intro). All I was really pushing for was an indication that the CIA had admitted to plotting a coup — this just makes the intro sound less POV, since it shows that the assertion of CIA plotting is strongly justified. Cadr

"Backing" is a very broad term. At one extreme it can be direct military involvement; at the other it can be nothing more than a speech expressing agreement with the coup. Anything in between can also be "backing". Eclecticology 17:35, 2004 May 19 (UTC)

Don't be silly

All this talk of settling the editing issues by polling and declaring "winners" is silly. As Michael pointed out (more politely!), that's not what polls are for. Well, I'm telling you that the official policy of this website is NPOV.

If a fact or value (or anything else important) is in dispute in an article, the Wikipedia is not supposed to settle the issue. Rather, it REPORTS WHAT THE VARIOUS SIDES SAY. Sorry for shouting, but some contributors on this page just don't get it.

Including a phrase like "US-backed coup" implies that Wikipedia endorses the view that the coup was backed by the US (whatever that means or entails). Since there is CLEARLY a dispute among us contributors about whether (or how much) the US "backed the coup", the Wikipedia cannot come out and say flatly that the US backed the coup.

Rather, the article must report what various historians and other observers have said. I'd be happy to see something like:

  • All historians, except for a few right-wing wackos, agree that the US backed the coup.

(Okay, wackos is a bit extreme, but you know what I mean: we attribute every point of view (POV) to the advocated of that POV.)

It might be a bit more polished to say:

  • Historians and others disagree over how much support the US gave to Pinochet. Joe Schmoe says the US "backed the coup by supplying arms, intelligence, money, and assurances of friendly future relations." Sam Shady, a known CIA operative, claims that the US had no part in the coup, aside from making public statements amounting to a claim that Allende was destroying the Chilean economy and driving the country toward dictatorship. (Note that these are made-up examples of the kinds of quotations we need to find and put into the article, so that all POV is properly attributed.) --Uncle Ed 14:06, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Ed. This exactly the way I see it. Sadly my limited English doesn't allow me to write this kind of balanced prose. Ericd 18:57, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

However, there is an inherent hard-to-solve problem with the NPOV-policy that many times has shown up when it comes to prioritizing things to put in the introductory paragraph and other prominent locations.
--Ruhrjung 17:45, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Poll results and their significance

Is everyone in agreement that 172 has won (oops, musn't use that word...) the poll? He has been quite active in canvasing voters, but I think it's unlikely that a comparable number of people could be convinced to vote in the other direction, and this is basically a repeat of a previous poll with a similar result. I think we should now decide whether the results of this poll have any implications for the content of the intro, which is doubtful in my opinion. If some of the voters would join in the actual discussion on this page, we might really get somewhere, but so far the pattern has been that only a small number of people have participated in discussion, while a much larger number has voted (and we have no way of knowing how well informed these people are with regard to the preceding dicussion — an important issue). Surely, if Wikipedia is discussion and consensus based, the views of people who have not (yet) entered into discussion are of dubious significance. Let's finish with the poll and get some more people involved in forming a consensus.

(Obviously a lot of the sentiment here comes straight from Ed Poor's post, but my additional suggestion is that we close the poll now, with the results archived as they currently stand.)

Cadr

The poll is utterly meaningless, which is why I did not even take part. 172 recruited his ideological allies to vote, and they did. (With similar canvassing we could garner votes of our own, but no matter.) There are only one or two users I find it sad to see caring so little about NPOV, but the results change nothing. I already know about Wikipedia's strong political bias and don't need a poll to remind me. As has been pointed out, a similar poll on whether to include Criticisms of Mother Teresa would also probably go the wrong way. And Cadr is quite correct that most of those people have not participated in the discussion; statements such as "I didn't even know this was disputed" indicate, uh..., unawareness of what is going on here. VV 21:21, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Don't get your hopes up, VV. A similar poll had a binding effect at Talk:Fascism/_archive8#Poll:_Should_the_Soviet_Union_and_other_communist_states_be_listed_as_fascist_regimes_in_this_article? This means you'll have to tone down your personal attacks against me and anyone who disagrees with you, give up your canard assertion that the wording in my intro is misleading, and give up your claims that your version has a 'consensus' behind it. 172 21:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC) this comment was deleted by VeryVerily in reverting 172's deletion of other comments, and restored by Michael Snow
To recap, we the then-editors of this page did reach a delicate consensus before the swarming started (first 172, then his friends). And 172 is the king of personal attacks; just look around. VV 22:53, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I get mad at being called 172's friend. :-(
He is one of the editors of Wikipedia I find the most damageing. I think VV is shooting himself in the foot.
--Ruhrjung 17:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not saying you're 172's friend. I'm saying his friends started swarming. As an intellectual you should recognize this as the affirming the consequent logical fallacy. I'm aware of your general feelings about 172 and me, although I still don't feel I understand them completely despite our first conversation. VV 20:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd rather not get involved in personal disputes, but the idea that Wikipedia has a systematic left-wing bias is silly. There are lots of users who are on the left, and lots on the right. Different pages, and different disputes, might tilt one way or another, but the fact that pretty much everybody seems to feel that Wikipedia is biased against their POV suggests that we've got things about right, at least in terms of the big picture. As to this page as a whole, I'll have to read through the talk archives to see what points have been made, but I've really never seen it seriously disputed before that the US backed the coup. john 21:33, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, if I may say, you seem to have a bit of a left tilt yourself, which may be why things seem "about right" :). The main complaints about systematic "right-wing bias" come from those who want to see Wikipedia look like Mao's Red Book. There are, to be sure, other strains of thought here - though outnumbered sometimes persistent - and lesser articles often reflect the bias of the last to edit them. Still, I feel conservatives "stand out" here, and the more modest even half-apologize for their views (I recall User:Ark30inf's old user page). Anyway, if any good comes of this mess it'll be that a few may learn that their dogmas about the US turn out to not be so straightforward as they thought. VV 22:51, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I wouldn't deny having something of a left tilt. At the same time, I think it is deeply unfair to say that those who complain of a right tilt want to see Wikipedia look like Mao's Little Red Book, just as it would be unfair to say that those who complain about systematic left-wing bias want Wikipedia to look like Fox News. Probably more unfair, since Fox News is more within the realm of acceptable political beliefs than Maoism. At any rate, I'd add that the left bias (such as it exists) on Wikipedia is a rather intellectual, academic leftism, for the most part, and not very similar to the agitprop of Soviet-style communism. john 00:26, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm merely reporting my observations: people who talk of right-wing bias are often also quite interested in whitewashing Pol Pot and Josef Stalin. I don't doubt there is FOX News influence, but (as you note) FOX News is hardly extreme, and those who make specific accusations of such influence have largely ruined their credibility with me by accusing me of also being a FOX partisan (even the non-"Maoists", which also reflects poorly on them). Yes, "academic" leftism may more predominate here, but that's still a healthy tilt. VV 00:43, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Sure, but there's also people here who'd like to whitewash Nixon and Pinochet. FOX news certainly is extreme, so far as I can see; I suppose anyone who saw it as mainstream would probably perceive a left-wing bias in any serious political commentary. Being pretty left-wing myself, I've always perceived a right-wing bias to Wikipedia (at least on any issue involving America). I would say that there's very little "academic Xism" on Wikipedia, and a definite majority of underinformed Yism and Zism. Anyway, given that we all perceive different biases, it's probably fair to say that Wikipedia as a whole is fairly neutral, as John points out. Cadr
The point is is that "backed" is a vague word. Everyone thinks the US backed the coup in some sense, but it would be easy to read the intro and get the wrong idea (e.g. that there was direct US military involvement, at one extreme). The footnote helps with this, but I don't like it because the main body of the text should be clear in the first place. Cadr

Voting on POV/NPOV issues isn't very productive in my experience. I think we should continue to work towards a solution that is acceptable to all parties. In my opinion, writing that Pinochet's government was backed by the US is far less ambiguous than the assertion that the coup itself was backed (which is likely correct in virtually all possible interpretations, but still to some extent unproven). Then we can do away with the footnote and discuss the details of the coup in the appropriate section in the article.--Eloquence* 22:09, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

Encarta just mentions U.S.-backing in the intro with no footnote, but let's keep the footnote as a gesture of compromise [2]. We don't want an entire sentence or two on U.S. involvement, as this is an intro to a biographical article, not the 1973 coup. Please rewrite the footnote, though, if you want. 172 00:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Typical. Offer nothing and call it a "gesture of compromise". Who is 172 trying to fool? Well, my gesture of compromise is the wording I wrote. VV 00:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
No, I didn't write the contents of the footnote. Cadr wrote it (I think- but uncertain) and you can rewrite it. That's pretty significant. 172 00:48, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I didn't write the footnote (at least not originally; might have edited it sometime). Cadr
The footnote's pretty unpopular anyway, since it's an inelegant and not particularly effective solution. Several people who have voted no in the poll have said that they don't like it. It's certainly not the compromise to end all compromises, but you seem unwilling to consider any other compromise proposal. Cadr
Then, by all means, rewrite the footnote. BTW, it's a generous compromise compared to what TDC got when he was overwhelmingly defeated in this poll on Talk:Fascism (nothing). 172 11:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
You seem to have paid no attention that Cadr objected that "it's an inelegant and not particularly effective solution". The problems with the poll here have already been enumerated. VV 12:06, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Most of the people voting in the poll had no previous input to the page, and had not followed the previous discussion. The question was rather narrow, since it did not mention any alternatives to using "US-backed", so people could not object to your intro on grounds of style or clarity. I've explained inumerable times why the footnote is not a good idea, and even people who have voted no in the poll have said that they do not like it. All the poll does is verify that your intro is not especially misleading when the footnote is present; it is not a vote of confidence in your intro on any other grounds (i.e. style, clarity, etc.) If you wish to decide by poll which intro we should have, you need a new question (i.e. is this intro better than that intro?) Cadr
Give it up. If this goes to arbitration, you wouldn't even get the footnote. This will look like a deliberate stalling attempt to everyone else. I mean, the 14 users who voted "no" sure as hell aren't going to turn around and vote for an intro reading, "many people believe the CIA had a role in the coup." Please handle the poll results as honorably as TDC handled them on Talk:Fascism. That'll make things easier on all of us. 172 12:14, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Eloquence, I, and others have offered to drop mention of the alleged US/CIA role in the coup from the intro entirely, but you have scoffed at this generous compromise. VV 12:18, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
That's not necessarily the intro they'd be asked to vote for, 172. The idea that this poll is all that is required to get your intro into the article is farsical. For a start, it doesn't show that your intro is any good, all it shows is that it's not misleading. This side-steps the main issue — no-one has seriously suggested that the intro is especially misleading with the footnote, but plently have objected to the footnote as a means of avoiding ambiguity (why not just use unambiguous language is the first place?) It may well be the case that a majority of people would find VV's or mine or JamesMLane's intro not to be misleading if a poll were held to find out, and such polls would surely be necessary to give context to your poll. To decide on an intro for the article, we would have to have a poll between several competing intros. You poll is a pathetic attempt to get any kind of positive result in the hope that people will be mislead into believing it is significant. If this goes to arbitration, I expect people there will take as dim a view of your poll question and your canvasing as they have here (complaint has been quite prevalent, even amongst those who voted no). Cadr
I see 172 would rather have another edit war than respond to my arguments. Cadr
Your argument against the succinct version of the intro emphatically lost with 88% voting against it. I'm done hearing you say the same things over and over again. Backing is an indisputable fact and backing means backing! If you insist, we can have arbitration affirm that as well. 172 13:44, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
172, the poll did not ask if the "succinct version" should be used. One might almost as well have a poll about whether a particular intro was correct in using "CIA" rather than "C.I.A.," and then use the poll's approval of the form "CIA" to mean that that version of the intro had to be used. Cadr's interpretation of the vote is much more accurate. Please note my explanatory comment (as one of the "88%" you invoke): "My vote is that the wording being polled is not misleading (the question asked in the poll) but that the wording also isn't good." I believe I'm not the only one who feels that way. We need to continue the discussion, perhaps with yet a third (!) sandbox. The first sandbox, where VV deleted from the intro my citations to the CIA's admitted role, can be reserved for those who don't want anything in the intro that would give the slightest validation to the charges of U.S. culpability. The second sandbox, your "succinct" version, can be reserved for those who want to treat that charge as established fact and don't want anything in the text of the intro that would cast the slightest doubt on their position. The new (third) sandbox) would be for people genuinely interested in finding text that reasonably accommodates all points of view. Then, when each version had gone through some discussions and edits, we could have a comparative poll, eliciting preferences as among the three of them. Your alternative suggestion -- that we treat it as a done deal, archive the talk and move on -- is unrealistic, as we would immediately be back in another round of reverts. JamesMLane 14:29, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Again, 172 has not responded to my substantive point. As I said, the poll only established that 172's intro was not misleading, which I did not disagree with anyway. It did not establish that his intro has consensus or majority support, which is the key issue. Please respond to this point, 172. Cadr
Well, if you don't think that the new intro is misleading, we're in agreement. Let's move on and start archiving this 138 K talk page. 172 13:58, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
172 is now being deliberately evasive. He knows very well that although I do not find the intro misleading with the footnote, I do not like the footnote (and neither do a lot of other people). I repeat: the poll only established that 172's intro was not misleading, which I did not disagree with anyway. It did not establish that his intro has consensus or majority support, which is the key issue. Please respond to this point, 172. Cadr
as usual, Eloquence has an essential insight. Really, all I'd say we have to do is cite and verify who is saying what. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. Lets let them speak for themselves. Nobody is looking to censor anything, are they? Sam [Spade] 22:30, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with discussing the details in the appropriate section. At the same time, if it is "likely correct in virtually all possible interpretations" to say that the US backed the coup...well...john 00:26, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Re that last part: My impression is that Eloquence seems to basically agree with 172's interpretation of the Chile events, but is also aware of 172's obnoxious, recalcitrant, and anti-Wiki behavior, and does recognize the need for NPOV. VV 12:37, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Personal attacks, revert wars and ideological bias

  • I read quite a bit about Pinochet, Allende and Chile's economy in the 60s and 70s (and not just "opinions" but economic data and scientific analysis). People who say I have "visibly no understanding" and vote "ideologically" just because I happen not to agree with them, are making a productive discussion hard.
    • VV The "no understanding" was in reference to being aware of what we had been talking about on this Talk page.
  • I am not "buddy of 172", random or otherwise, nor was I "brought in" by him. Saying so without verification or proof reflects quite negatively on VeryVerily's way of argumentation in my opinion. If I understood the principles of Wikipedia correctly, everyone knowledgeable can try to contribute to the discussion...
    • VV I did not say this. I said that some were buddies of 172, and they were. You are falling for 172 smear tricks. VV 09:24, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Reverting an article more than two times when the issue is controversial is foolish; Engaging in revert wars shows ideological bias and narrow-mindedness more than anything else. Some people apparently have too much time on their hands (that seems to be true both for VV and 172).
  • I won't return to this article in the near future - personal attacks, revert warring and name-calling are not my idea of cooperating to create an encyclopedia. Marcika 03:44, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

The wrong version!!!!????

I agree with all of the above particulars, if not the conclusion. Sam [Spade] 04:23, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

As now all can see, 172 has adopted a new form of utter sleaze to get his way. VV 14:37, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about sleaze, but he certainly hasn't explained why the results of his poll have any implications for the intro to this article. Cadr
It doesn't. But he told Viajero that it did, and gently asked him to "facilitate the process of unprotecting the page and putting up the winning version of the intro". Viajero fell for it (because he wanted to?) and gave 172 his unprotection and new intro. Hence, sleaze. VV 14:52, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
Sure, every version that gets protected is the "wrong version." If you decide to make more and more enemies, you'll be paving the road toward your own banning. Watch out and stop with the personal attacks, for your own sake. 172 15:07, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
 ? The "wrong version" is nothing to do with this. VV's point (I think) was that your intro was put up after the page was unprotected, on the basis of an irrelavent poll. Cadr
A poll that established that there's nothing wrong with the intro. You yourself have now admitted that it's not misleading. I don't know why I'm still talking about this. I'm going to move on and get to more serious work now. 172 16:21, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
It did not establish that there was "nothing wrong" with the intro, it established that it was not misleading. See my comments above and JamesMLane's ("Cadr's interpretation of the vote is much more accurate"; "the poll did not ask if the 'succinct version' should be used") . The poll only established that 172's intro was not misleading, which (with the footnote) we all agreed on anyway. It did not establish that the intro had consensus or majority support, which is the key issue. 172's continuous avoidance of this crucial point (he has failed to respond to it in the discussion above several times, and now down here) is seriously undermining his position. Cadr
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