Talk:Augusto Pinochet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basque Portal This article is within the scope of the Basque WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Basque people, Basque Country, Basque language, history and culture. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute. Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles.

Contents 1 Heart attack 2 Pinochet's 91st birthday statement to the World 3 London, England, The United Kingdom 4 England. 5 Eliminating Information in Order to Create Consensus 6 Edit War 7 Presidency table 8 Cocaine Business 9 Vatican not Pope urged Pinochet release 10 Sweeping the CoD's Resolution under the rug 11 Copper 12 Double spaces? 13 The header/ intro is too long 14 Recent edits by POV-pushing anon 15 Article quality and cleanup 16 Lies About "Expanded Economy" 17 Deleted text 18 Potential Reversion 19 Pronunciation of "Augusto" 20 School of the Americas/WHISC 21 Clogs popped 22 SProtect 23 Augusto Pinochet official portrait in Commons 24 Vandalism 25 Arrest and traial 26 Dictator 27 Thank You 28 Freemason? 29 External Links 30 Please Observe Proper Flag Etiquette in Articles 31 Neutrality of Library Of Congress Country Report 32 Freemason 33 Strange sentence 34 Pronunciation of Pinochet 35 "President de facto" or "dictator"? 36 POV tag 37 POV editors 38 Quotes 39 The grandson 40 "to save the country from communism" 41 Concentration camps? 42 What political ideology was he? 43 New constitution in 1980 44 Dissolution of Congress in September 1973 after the coup 45 THE OPENING SENTENCE SHOULD BE MORE ACCURATE, TRUE 45.1 Newspapers of record 46 Why WikiProject France?!? 47 Arhuement over the term dictator 48 Dictatorship 49 President 50 Removed links 51 Introduction 52 Economic Policy 53 NPOV introduction? 54 Neo-Nazi 55 Pinochet's Legacy

[edit] Heart attack

link "AUGUSTO PINOCHET has been given the last rites after a massive heart attack left the former Chilean strongman clinging to life.

“His fate is in the hands of God and his doctors,” the former dictator’s son Marco Antonio Pinochet Hiriart said yesterday as his father remained conscious and in a stable condition.

Juan Ignacio Vergara, a doctor treating the retired general, said 91-year-old Pinochet’s life was “in danger”. State television later reported that doctors had decided to carry out heart bypass surgery."

someone should add a mention of this in the article and add the 'current event' tag.

I'm Catholic, and I suppose I should hope that God forgave Gen. Pinochet, despite the bad things he did. I guess none of us believers will ever know. The man caused so much pain though, on so many innocent people simply because they were not right wing. So sad to have lived his life that way.

[edit] Pinochet's 91st birthday statement to the World

Why did Pinochet take full responsibility for his actions now at 91, its as if his offsprings made him write that so as to absolve all of them of their complicity in his crimes. What about that 3cubic meters of gold that was supposedly deposited in Hong Kong? How many tons of Gold did Pinochet deposit there? What was he trying to do? What is this guy doing writing statements now at 91 wasn't he declared unfit to stand trial about 6 years; didn't he have dementia.

[edit] London, England, The United Kingdom

Come on, this just looks silly: "London, England, the United Kingdom" Apologies to Americans who dont know where London and/or England are, but can we not just say "London"? It's not like it's ambiguous as to what it could be referring to. Praetonia 08:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] England.

Does anyone have cites for where Pinochet was held in the UK, and the clinic he attended? Rich Farmbrough 14:27 6 May 2006 (UTC).

he spent a lot of time in a rented mansion somehwere in the home counties, SqueakBox 17:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eliminating Information in Order to Create Consensus

The latests edit, made by CieloEstrellado eliminating huge swathes of pertinent information about the Pinochet dictatorship, are clearly passive POV edits.

CieloEstrellado has systematically eliminated any and all statements of fact about the Pinochet Dictatorship that s/he considers either positive of the regime, non-negative of the regime, or which cast any negative light on the preceding regime, that of Salvador Allende.

Note that CieloEstrellado's edits have cut out unindisputed statements of fact, not opinion. For instance, the AFP private pension fund system in fact was implemented by the Pinochet dictatorship, it is in effect today, was considered the model for Social Security reform in the US, and is widely considered to have been the most important measure in terms of increasing the Chilean capital markets, minimizing foreign debt and creating the conditions of economic growth that have held over the past twenty years.

This issue — used here only as an example to show the scope of CieloEstrellado's cuts — is undisputed fact, key to understanding the Pinochet dictatorship, and worthy of future development. I had planned on creating an article specifically devoted to the AFP pension system, which is a topic not only worthy of knowing, but vital, considering the havoc currently involving the US Social Security system. Yet CieloEstrellado is wont to cut it, for reason best known to herself or himself.

Pinochet clearly raises tremendous passions. However, by narrowing and eliminating facts so as to paint as dark a picture of the Pinochet dictatorship as possible, CieloEstrellado is doing THE supreme disserviceto the Wikipedia community — creating consensus by eliminating information.

One may not like the Devil, one may in fact hate him — but the Devil still has to get his due. And one has to know all facets of the Devil, however distasteful, in order to fully understand him.

I invite members of the community to compare the last versions of the Pinochet article and discuss it on this page.

--MILH 12:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The AFP system has been so successful in Chile, that the first thing president Bachelet has done is to set up a commission to reform it. You edits are so lacking of any neutrality that it is almost impossible to rescue anything worthwhile out of them. It really is frustrating to remove everything you have contributed because of this reason. I advise that you don't make such sweeping edits to this article. As you can see from the Talk archives it has been very difficult to achieve some sort of concensus for the current version of the article. Please try making smaller edits so it is easier to de-POV them. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I hate it when people straddle fences when discussing history. Pinochet KIDNAPPED AND KILLED THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. If you want to discuss Pinochet's place in world systems theory then that's fine. You can use Adam Smith and Sam Huntington and I'll use Gramsci and Wallerstein. However, don't ever attempt to sugarcoat Pinochet's deeds and couch it in this bullshit "I'm just telling it like it is" attitude. History is political and will always be political, if you can't handle it then get a new profession. I don't know where you studied, but where I come from there is no straddling of fences... ---Matt R.

It is true that Pinochet killed some 3.000 people and tortured many others but what must be considered is that a very big part of the Chilean society supported him. Maybe instead of blaming just one man we should blame half a country, but then what's the point of doing that? The fact that Pinochet killed all these people doesn't mean that everything he did was bad. His dictatorship also brought stability to a country which, according to some, was on the verge of experiencing a leftist revolution. Things are just not black or white. ---Santiago Aldecoa Avellaneda, San Sebastián, Spain

Absolutely right. If we buy into the arguments of either side we merely display POV, our duty as an encyclopedia is to remain neutral given Pinochet is far from universally hated, SqueakBox 21:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's the fact be presented. Just the facts. Your hatress is understandable but are not facts. Pinochet was not a devil but a man who took control of a country unwillingly under special circunstances. One should be afraid that what happened to Pinochet (became a dictator) can again happen to many men driven by hate and fear. Please show that one can learn, understand from the errors of the others. Please learn... Let's the facts show us the way. (Thucydides100 17:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Edit War

Unfortunately, and irrespective of my best efforts at arriving at a modus vivendi, CieloEstrellado and I are involved in an edit war.

From my point of view, these are the issues at stake:

1. Objecting to information because it does not square with one's preconceptions.
2. Eliminating facts in order to passively cement a particular POV.
3. Calling someone's facts biased when they are accurate.
4. Calling someone's conclusions biased even when they are arrived at by sound logic, and are deduced or inferred from undisputed fact.

The Pinochet article has been improved in terms of providing greater context, more information, and better organization. Yet CieloEstrellado has repeatedly blanket reverted it.

It is unfortunate that Allende commited suicide. But though that fact is unfortunate, it is undisputed. To call something disputed — or to outright negate it — when it is known to be true by all concerned, is morally wrong. This goes not only for the Allende suicide issue, but for every other fact that CielEstrellado so cavalierly negates, reverts and discounts as "biased" just because he doesn't like it.

I have researched CieloEstrellado's attitude in other articles: He has a habit of flagging things he doesn't like, or eliminating undisputed facts he doesn't happen to agree with. See the history pages of HIV, Machuca, Juntas de Abastecimientos y Precios or Michelle Bachelet to see what I mean. The Bachelet example is the most egregious case — deleting the fact that Bachelet speaks some Russian and reads Cyrillic, and calling such information "irrelevant for an encyclopedia article" (see his edit summary for his deletion and this statement).

I for one will not accept the elimination of information in order to advance a POV. Clearly users such as CieloEstrella are worse than vandals: Vandals are just an annoyance. Eliminating information to advance an agenda is an attack on us all.

--MILH 03:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't have a agenda too??? It seems like you have, and with a stronger bias than StarrySky... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.133.25 (talk) 02:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Presidency table

In the final table he is named president from 1974 to 1990. That's false, first, there is still controversy in the country and history books about the 1980 plebiscite validity. Well, I don't want to enter in a edit war. So for the supporters, who claims him president, if you want to keep that table it must say from 1980 to 1990, before that he was dictator, after that... also, but with another title. I'm going to edit it keeping the president table, but from 1980.

NOt true. He had the "President" tittle before the constitution (NOT sure, but I think that it was in 1976)

YES but he was self declared president, he was never elected, the article is misleading if it says he came to power in a coup detat and that he had a regime and there was return to democracy in 1990 if he was really president all along, he is widely regarded as a dictator except by his cronies and supporters. he was never elected. stop the misleading.qrc2006/email 23:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cocaine Business

The latest news is that Pinochet has been accused of dealing with black cocaine, also known as Russian cocain, which is difficult to detect. Apearently the origin's of his secret fortune are in the drug trade as was reported by The New York Times: Former Aide Says Pinochet and a Son Dealt in Drugs.--tequendamia 10:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That link is not working, but try this one: [1]

By the way the famous gold never existed see what the HKB has to say about it. But I do believe that he stole the Chritsmas once. Didn't He?

• Of course that's what the bank said; that way THEY get to keep the gold. Use your head! Ghost of starman 22:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vatican not Pope urged Pinochet release

This article names John Paul II as urging the release of Pinochet, however it was a senior vatican official not the pope. BBC article--155.198.63.111 17:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Vatican can't make such annoucements, without the Pope's consent. The senior official was acting on the Pope instructions. GoodDay 14:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That is very ironic, too, because Pope John Paul II and Gen. Pinochet did not exactly see eye to eye.

[edit] Sweeping the CoD's Resolution under the rug

Mingus ah um, if you had wanted to discuss something in Talk and actually had a credible reason for removing reference to the CoD Resolution, you might have taken it upon yourself to get in the first word rather than issuing threats in article comments. -- I earnestly await your logical explanation as to why a few sentences detailing a stage-setting landmark event are not appropriate to a Wiki article concerning a (in)famous person who expediently capitalized upon said event.--01:25, 20 July 2006 Mike18xx

Mike, I stated early on that I had no problem with this paragraph being reinstated in another section of the article, but that it did not belong as the second paragraph of a biography. Introductions are supposed to be concise. You know that... We all know that. Instead of focusing on the fact that Pinochet violated the Consititution of Chile with his violent (you tried to play that down too) coup, you are attempting to somehow justify his actions by referencing a failed resolution (we've been over this, it failed in the senate) which had nothing to do with Pinochet or his decision to break the law and instill a rightwing totalitarian government. Wiki is a collaboration, and, yes, sometimes you do have to negotiate over how an article should be properly built. Both suggestions (either reinstate the article somewhere or discuss here) were merely intended to promote a democratic atmosphere. Please abandon your autocratic additude towards wiki and try to work toward a consensus. --(Mingus ah um 07:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Your earnest obsession over Pinochet's "violation(s) of the Constitution of Chile", "violen(ce)" and "totalitarianism" stand in stark contrast to your indifference to the Chilean Legislature's condemnation of Allende for precisely those things. The Resolution belongs exactly where I've placed it, because regardless of it failing to pass Allende's stuffed Senate (an event I gather the curious impression that you're pleased to equate with an exoneration of Allende), its overwhelming passage in the CoD was a pivotal moment in Chilean history with the Army capitalizing upon it within weeks as implored to. Regards "autocracy" and "consensus" on Wiki: (1) You were the one who threatened to run off crying to the moderators; (2) you and I are the only two people talking right now; and (3), Regardless of the structure of Wiki, I intensely dislike the assumption that history must properly be subject to a vote of the ignorant then buried in "fine print" when it is begrudgingly choked down with a held nose -- and will never entertain such arguments to that regard as logical rejoinders. Lastly, (4) Allende was a Leninist crumb who turned the MIR loose to bully and murder the countryside, and you should get over it.--Mike18xx 09:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Mike, I have never encountered an history (that is, a secondary source published in English--the only language I can read quickly and comfortably) which has argued that Allende was the source of any violence during his short rule. If you have a single source (which falls into both of these categories, i.e., English and secondary) to recommend, I would be interested to know the title and author. Indeed, it is well known that Allende's Marxists were the most conservative of the broad MIR lead leftist coallition; the socialist and anarchist unions were allegedly involvedin local level violence after they (the socialists and the anarchists) expropriated private land/factories ahead of schedule (without Allende's directive or consent). However, this violence would have been essentially defensive, for the expropriations took place peacefully, if only for the fact that they were not considered imminent by the land owners themselves. On the other hand, over three thousand people dissapeared in the first decade of Pinochet's rule, over a thousand of them immediately after the coup. Your attempts to equate Pinochet and Allende are simply baffling.

Your believe that the resolutions "overwhelming passage in the CoD was a pivotal moment in Chilean history with the Army capitalizing upon it within weeks as implored to" ignores the fact that René Schneider's (the Commander in Chief of the Chilean army) virulent oppositon to military coups would have stopped any rebellion if the US endorsed and financed assassination had not allowed a right wing thug like Pinochet to breed insurrection within the army's ranks. You and I both know that contemporary histories state that the two monumental events of the age, the two which destroyed a democracy, were the assassination of the Commander in Chief of of the Chilean army and the violation of the Constitution by a would-be Caudillo, not a resolution which failed to make its way through half of the nation's legislative body.

Regarding your four points:

"(1) You were the one who threatened to run off crying to the moderators;" Of course I did; the moderators exist to keep wiki healthy and functioning; at times, this means keeping the peace. Knowing your wiki rep., it is clear that you have knocked heads with a moderator or two in your day.

"(2) you and I are the only two people talking right now;" We're the only people talking, but there is another user reverting your edits on the Allende page...

"3), Regardless of the structure of Wiki, I intensely dislike the assumption that history must properly be subject to a vote of the ignorant then buried in "fine print" when it is begrudgingly choked down with a held nose -- and will never entertain such arguments to that regard as logical rejoinders." If you were as superior an historian as you clearly believe yourself to be, you wouldn't waste your time on an open source form of media. Drop the elitist shtick. If you want to play on wiki, you have to deal with people who actually disagree with you. If you do not want to do that... Get off the internet and write a book.

(4) Allende was a Leninist crumb who turned the MIR loose to bully and murder the countryside, and you should get over it. Actually, no. 1) He was not a Leninist; he pursued Marxism democratically; 2) he was not a crumb, he was democratically elected; 3) he never "turned the MIR loose," and he never endorsed or advocated bullying or murder.

I don't care how long you are willing to dedicate to this attempt to recast history; at some point, you will give up and another individual will revert your edit (if only to reinstate it in the body of the article, as I have repeatedly suggested). --(Mingus ah um 20:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Mingus: I have never encountered an history (that is, a secondary source published in English--the only language I can read quickly and comfortably) which has argued that Allende was the source of any violence during his short rule.

-- That wouldn't surprise me in the least, especially given that most published material on the subject written in English is the product of American socialist academics. (E.g., movie critic Roger Ebert is still under the impression that the CIA murdered Allende, a tidbit he imparted in email to me last year after I critiqued his moronic review of the propaganda film "The Motorcycle Diaries".) Nevertheless, cyberspace is overflowing with information now, and you'd do well to brush up. You may even encounter wonderful quotations like this one: "Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President!" -- Salvadore Allende. Say, I really ought to find room in his Wiki entry for that...whaddya you think? ;-) --Mike18xx 20:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry? There are plenty of conservative critics of leftist politics in Latin America; just look at the volume of material which has been produced to challenge the Sandinistas, the Zapitistas and Chavez's Bolivarian revolution. If you truly believe that "most published material on the subject written in English is the product of American socialist academics" (emphasis mine), than you clearly have spent too much time watching Fox news and too little time on an actual campus. The History department, is, by and large, the second most conservative social science department on a public school campus (far to the right of Anthropology, Sociology, Political Science, International Studies, etc, etc), and, I hate to break it to you, but there are less socialists in America than there are in any other Western nation. If such a small cadre of ideologues are able to dominate the discussion, what does that say about the rest of the English speaking world? Furthermore, what does Roger Ebert have to do with anything!?!? The man sits on his ass all day and watches films; why on earth is he your reference point? Furthermore, do you really suggest that I abandon histories which cite the primary sources that they reference and trust the bloody internet? Is your quote ("Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President!" -- Salvadore Allende.) intended to be controversial? Would anyone remotely familiar with Latin American politics be shocked to hear such a statement from a politician who was: a) democratically elected; and b) keenly aware that, as the conservative face of the left, the more radical factions of the MIR lead coallition (the socialists, the anarchists) would take action into their own hands if he was denied the office he legally won? Your quote is not just irrelevant, it is certifiably banal.

Let's leave it to posterity to judge whether or not a threat of civil war and terrorism issued by the candidate who let the MIR do all the dirty work for him once elected is in fact "irrelevant" and "banal".--Mike18xx 06:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is it so hard for you to work with other contributors?--(Mingus ah um 21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

"Work" is just your euphemism for "concede".--Mike18xx 06:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copper

President Allende's economic policy had involved nationalizations of many key companies, notably U.S.-owned copper mines. This had been a significant reason behind the United States opposition to Allende's reformist socialist government, in addition to his establishing diplomatic relations and cooperation agreements with Cuba and the Soviet Union. Much of the internal opposition to Allende's policies came from business sector, and recently-released U.S. government documents confirm that the U.S. funded the lorry drivers' strike, that had exacerbated the already chaotic economic situation prior to the coup.

Did Pinochet actually "denationalize" the copper mines to U.S. companies? If so, it should be clarified, if not then this seems unrelated to Pinochet's economic policies and should be removed from that section. CJK 15:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. Vast, heaping mounds of all these Chile-related entries are just desperate excuses to indulge in Marxist class-warfare propaganda (eg., claiming the "business sector" constituted "much" of Allende's oppostion, as opposed to, one wonders, the Chamber of Deputes asking the military to kick him in the nads) and yammer on about the US & CIA (and basically bloat out the piece in the hope that the few sentences mentioning the CoD Resolution are overlooked).--Mike18xx 10:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Double spaces?

This edit summary says that the article is filled with double spaces. I've scanned through the article using my eyes and a software tool and didn't find any- has anyone found any of these double spaces? Captainktainer * Talk 10:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I nailed out several just in one paragraph I was working on. I submit it's possible those were the only in the entire article, in which case it's a fluke of coincidence.--Mike18xx 11:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The header/ intro is too long

The header/ intro is too long, this reduces usability, the table of contents buried deep into the article. I suggest reorganizing so that the table of contents is above the fold. Most of the contents should be moved into different sections of the article.

Additionally the economic transformation of Chile from one of Latin America's poorest countries to one of it's richest (GDP-PPP per capita), during his rule deserves a mention.

Also for an article about such an important and controvertial historical figure, it is stangely lacking sources.VirafPatel 05:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Go for it, baby; I hate doing all the work around here! ;-P --Mike18xx 09:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits by POV-pushing anon

This edit broke a reference; I'm going to have to revert and try to incorporate whatever is not blatant POV-pushing from the anon's edits.Captainktainer * Talk 17:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article quality and cleanup

This article is generally pretty bad. Because of a very strong desire to crucify Pinochet within this article it has become long and bloated. A lot of the material should be moved to separate articles. For instance the article on the election is way too detailed and should just be put in a separate article. A lot of the article consists of unfounded opinions which are not attributed to anyone e.g. 1) Pinochet coup was done so he could implement neoliberal reforms, 2) All doubts about human right abuses have been stilled due to detailed reports etc. These types of things are stated in such a way that they have become opinions. Opinions cannot be original in an encyclopedia. They must be attributed to someone.

Ok I think Melromero has basically fixed this article up. It is very nice now. Thanks Melromero!

[edit] Lies About "Expanded Economy"

Pinochet did not a thing for the economy. Chile already had good living standards relative to other Latin American countries before 1973. Just go to undp.org to look at Chilean (and other) statistics. Pinochet policies resulted in massive impoverishment. By 1987, 40% of Chilean population lived in poverty. Economic growth in Pinochet years was also mediocre (alternating periods of strong growth with the devastating recession of early 80´s). Chile had the second worse levels of unequality in LA (first is Brazil). Much of the gains in Human development actually happened AFTER Pinochet, under the coalition of Christian democrats and socialists (this was really a period of strong growth and improvement in living conditions, althought unequality remained untouched). On the other hand, it could be said that Pinochet´s economic policies were kept by those parties. Nowadays, Chile still is growing, but at relatively small rates, while unemployment is growing and the absence of a public social security system threatens the future of many people (social security in Chile was privatized, and has universal coverage, but only 50% of the population is adding money to their individual accounts.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm

Shouldn't the reference to "disastrous" unemployment be eliminated nonetheless? Isn't that an inherently POV term in that regard? I'm no fan of Pinochet in that I believe that an objective study of his time in office shows plenty of wrongdoing, but doesn't his record nonetheless need to be described in as neutral of a langauge as possible? Rlquall 15:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted text

In this edit [2] by anonymous user 200.27.31.129 (talk • contribs), much text was deleted. Maybe it should be reverted. Vints 07:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Another text problem is in the section about the plebiscite. Whoever wrote this keeps changing between calling it a plebiscite and a referendum. It's either one or the other, it can't be both. Some one should change it so it doesn't wrongly keep changing between the two. Owen214 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potential Reversion

IMO this article has deteriorated very significantly in the last six months. I remember reading it early this year and getting a lot of good content out of it. Now there is just very little left; it's like the skeleton of a good article.

I'd like to revert to the way the page was six months back and see if we can't work from that basis, because right now this article is really in terrible shape and tweaks aren't what is necessary.

Thoughts? --WillMagic 11:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Augusto"

The correct IPA representation of the "au" of Augusto in Spanish is "aʊ" not "aw" or "a". This should be rectified. AussieBoy 08:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• how that sound is pronouned in spanish is irrelvant, in chile they say Awwgusto Pino-chett

The fact that his last name is pronounced "pee-no-CHETT", and not "pee-no-SHAY" as is commonly believed should be noted.

[edit] School of the Americas/WHISC

There is evidence of Pinochet's spending time at the school of the America's. Many who oppose the school cite his involvement as a reason to be against the school. I believe therefore that something should be mentioned.----georgiew

[edit] Clogs popped

BBC News are reporting his death. I suggest the article is locked down until it's confirmed. Wikipedia isn't a news service and there will be loads of idiots swarming all over this page trying to have it updated as soon as possible, which in my experience results in a terrible mess of an article. On another matter, why does the first footnote take the reader to information about pronunciation that claims his name is pronounced /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/, only to follow it immediately with "i.e. 'Pih-noh-CHET' is correct rather than the common mispronunciation 'Pih-noh-SHAY'." This is contradictory. Is the /pino'ʧε/ pronunciation acceptable or not? 89.240.193.45 17:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a link to that effect in the article at the moment, only problem is that it's in spanish. Anyone got an english language link we can replace it with. --Charlesknight 17:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Not yet; the English-language sources are still catching up.Mackensen (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SProtect

Please sprotect. This is going to be chaotic. ☆ CieloEstrellado 18:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It has already been protected. I am not sure we should protect as a preventive measure for future changes when nothing serious has happened in the near past, so it may be unprotected soon. Also, note that the article is in the Main Page right now, which would be a reason for unprotecting (to invite new users to edit here). -- ReyBrujo 18:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Augusto Pinochet official portrait in Commons

Please place that image in Commons to avoid the other wikipedia to each upload it. thx. 216.86.113.16 19:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I have just removed abusive trash from "Early Career" section. If such edits occur more often. IMO this page should be locked to prevent it.--Volphy 21:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course it should, but sadly that is not the Wikipedia way. This community would rather have its most viewed articles messed about with by multiple editors working at odds with each other and submitting changes seconds apart while vandalism and POV-pushing slips under the radar. Why the article can't be locked for a few days while a few knowledgeable editors work in collaboration to produce something of genuine value which can go live after a slight delay I don't understand. There is no need for this encyclopaedia to turn itself into a poor parody of a 24-hour news channel doing an anything goes phone-in slot. Wikipedia is growing much faster than it is maturing. 89.240.193.45 22:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It should absolutely not be locked, now is the time when people want to edit and to prevent them is to weaken the article and wikipedia as a whole, SqueakBox 23:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This article really should be locked for several days until media frenzy about Pinochet's death washes out a bit. In the meantime it can be cleared out and stabilized a bit. It's almost impossible to track good edits if there are four bad edits and one good and still unsourced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pethr (talk • contribs) 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Arrest and traial

The lack of any info about this is POV and I have thus added the tag, we need to treat this issue here, SqueakBox 23:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

See Augusto Pinochet#Arrest and trial --Yakoo 23:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dictator

We dont generally call anyone a dictator here and Pinochet is no different. Why remove the info about his arrest from the opening? And no, that article is not an acceptabl;e alternative, we must treat it somewhat here, SqueakBox 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It is unacceptable that the introduction notes him as "a general and President of Chile", later "President of the Republic", with no mentioning of his dictatorship, countless human rights abuses and mass murder committed under his regime. These facts, above else, define the man and his legacy. I am stunned to find an article like this on Wikipedia. 81.1.99.200 01:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

See my above comment, it ius unacceptable to just reflect the views of the anti Pinochet side in the debate, and what is undeniable is that here are 2 sides to this argument. see WP:NPOV SqueakBox 01:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want to call him a dictator in Wikipedia, then you should call scumbags like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez dictators as well in their respective Wikipedia pages. Lenineleal 05:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Fidel Castro is a dictator so was Pinochet, now Hugo Chávez is not, the former two were never elected, chavez was elected several times now, even the opposition admits the a fair loss, so does the carter center, the eu, the u.n. CNN the BBC all media around the world announced 'FORMER DICTATOR AUGUSTO PINOCHET DIES" last week, i wonder why... maybe cuz he was a DICTATOR!!!qrc2006/email 23:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This man is being called a dictator by newspapers, so why is Wikipedia calling him a president? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/world/americas/11pinochet.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin http://www.nydailynews.com/front/covers/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/10/AR2006121000302.html

This is to name of a few. These guy was in fact a dictator - this has nothing to do with point of view. It is fact. He was not elected. He came to power through a coup.

Wikipedia itself says that "Dictator was the title of a magistrate in ancient Rome appointed by the Senate to rule the state in times of emergency." Isn´t this an accurate description of what Pinochet was after Allende was expelled from the government? Please watch the documentary "The Battle of Chile" for more info.

Wikipedia's definition of "dictator" seems to preclude the term's use in any situation but the description of ancient Rome. As I read it, Wikipedia's "dictator" can never take power in countries that do not have a "Senate", perhaps either because the word doesn't exist in the language of the country, or perhaps because they have a unicameral legislative body. <begin sarcasm>"I don't have to worry about living in 1920s Germany. A dictatorship can never occur here because we have a Reichstag and not a Senate."<end sarcasm> I refer to the very well-sourced and therefore in my opinion also very authoritative (not, however, on pronunciation) full version of the Oxford English Dictionary which lists as its primary definition as 1. A ruler or governor whose word is law; an absolute ruler of a state. a. orig. The appellation of a chief magistrate invested with absolute authority, elected in seasons of emergency by the Romans, and by other Italian states. b. A person exercising similar authority in a mediæval or modern state; esp. one who attains to such a position in a republic. By this definition: Castro is a Dictator, So was Hitler, and Pinochet and Mao and Saddam Hussein and so is Kim Jong-Il. Hugo Chávez is a populist and also in my opinion not doing very well for his country, but he was elected and re-elected. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also doesn't likely fit the definition in what is probably more properly termed an oligarchy--Damon Erickson

The reason we dont use dictator is it is not impartial and especially in the case of someone like Pinochet who has supporters as well as detractors. it is wrong to side with either faction, and calling him a dictator would be to side with the anti pinochet faction, SqueakBox 17:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Surely the fact that someone has supporters does not mean he cannot be a dictator by definition. When it is consensus amongst historians that Pinochet was a dictator (do I have to give sources?), not using this description here is clear POV. 81.1.107.12 16:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I know that you have probably been through this a million times, but by not mentioning the facts of the style of Chile's government during the 17 years of the regime, i.e. calling a spade a spade and a dictatorship a dictatorship, aren't you siding with one of the factions, and in this case, the one that does not have either the truth or the English language on its side? Would a dictatorship by any other name smell as sour? 200.113.151.46 20:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Damon Erickson

Our duty as an encyclopedia is to remain impartial, and given we dont call Hitler a dictator or fidel a dictator it would clearly be siding with the opponent of Pinochet to label him with this. Your argument is essntially if you are not for us you are against us, which I dont at all agree with. We have to remain neutral, and as someone who has never been to Chile but lives in a country not my own I have learnt the importance of that respect and neutrality first hand, SqueakBox 03:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

CALLING HIM A PRESIDENT SIDES WITH THE PRO-PINOCHET SIDE, CALLING HIM A DICTATOR IS NEUTRAL, ITS REALISTIC, IT CAN BE WELL REFERANECD, IT IS WIDELY THE CONSESUS ON WHAT HIS TIME IN POWER WAS, A DICTATORSHIP, ITS THE TRUTH, ITS WHAT HE IS REPORTED AS ON THE OVERWEALMING CONSENSUS OF INTERNATION NEWS OUTLETS. HE IS WIDELY AND MOST NOTABLE AS "THE FORMER CHILEAN DICTATOR, GENERAL PINOCHET" CALLING HIM PRESIDENT SIDES WITH THE PRO PINOCHET SIDE AND IS UTTER AND TOTAL BULLSHIT, IT IS SIMPLY FALSE. CALLING HIM PRESIDENT OF THE MILITARY JUNTA IS NOT FALSE, THATS THE TRUTH, IT SHOULD BE MENTIONED AND IT SHOULD ALSO SAY HE WAS A GENERAL, AND THAT THE OVERWEALMING CONSENSUS HAS AGREED THAT HE WAS A DICTATOR ALLTHOUGH THE FEELING IS NOT UNIVERSAL AMOUNGST HIS SUPPORTERS, I THINK SUCH A DESCRIPTION IS FAR MORE WELL ROUNDED, TRUE, AND NEUTRAL, ITS ALSO EASYLY CITEABLE, NOT MANY OUTLETS OUTSIDE OF CHILE SAY THE FORMER PRESIDENT DIED OF.... IN FACT IN CHILE THEY DIDNT EVEN SAY THAT THEY AVOID CALLING HIM A DICTATOR IN FAVOR OR NATIONAL RECONCILIATION AND ALSO DO NOT MENTION HE WAS A PRESIDENT EITHER IN ORDER NOT TO OFFEND THE SURVIVORS OF HIS BRUTAL GENOCIDE. PRESIDENTS DONT KILL AND TORTURE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. EVEN IF YOU LOVE PINOCHET HE WAS A DICTATOR, YOU LOVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE JUNTA NOT THE PRESIDENT OF CHILE, YOU LOVE A GENERAL, AND A DICTATOR, ITS OK, THATS THE TRUTH, IF YOU LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM ITS SIMPLY WHAT HE IS/WAS AND WHAT/WHO YOU LOVE OR HATE, OR MOST IMPORTANTLY ARE TRYING TO IMPARTIALLY READ ABOUT FROM AN ACADEMIC SOURCE, A ENCYCLOPEDIA. LETS FIND A BETTER OPENING, MORE REALISTIC AND TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE OPENING SENTANCE, PARAGRAPH. qrc2006/email 01:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You

Don't know if I can do this on this page but I would like to thank the administrator for doing a good job being impartial. Such as by not labelling Pinochet as a dictator but a head of military junta. If left wing strongmen like Castro are not labelled dictators than neither should right wing strongmen. Previously I noticed this trend (which was biased) in wikipedia but now it seems to have improved.

Comment: According to the Wikipedia definition of a dictator, Fidel Castro shouldn´t be called so because he wasn´t appointed by the senate or other government institution to take the place of head of state during a crisis. He actually took over the government and dissolved its institutions.

I went to the dictator page and Castro is listed as a benevolent dictator. Most dictators come to power due to putches and revolutions. Saddam Hussein came to power in this way and everyone calls him a dictator. So are Pinochet and Castro. But since the word, 'dictator' is so taboo better not to label anyone a dictator rather than just labeling right wing strongmen as such.

[edit] Freemason?

The article claims that Pinochet was a Freemason. As I remember, he was a practicing Catholic, which makes Masonic affiliation unlikely, IMO. Can anybody provide a source? David Cannon 23:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Does someone want to pare down the external links section? Drcwright 04:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please Observe Proper Flag Etiquette in Articles

Flag Etiquette:

A flag is flown on a STAFF when on land.

A flag is flown on a MAST when on a ship.

When a flag is lowered in mourning on land, it is flown at HALF STAFF.

When a flag is lowered in mourning on a ship, it is flown at HALF MAST.

Thank you . . .

[edit] Neutrality of Library Of Congress Country Report

This report: [3] is cited as a source. I question whether it is neutral. Can anyone with a better knowledge of the commissioning and authorship processes of such reports comment on whether it can be considered objective? I fully appreciate that given the subject matter, it may be near impossible to achieve neutrality. DavidFarmbrough 12:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freemason

According to this Pinochet was a member of a freemason logia (for a very short time)--Dolichocephalus 12:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange sentence

"Some political scientists have ascribed the relative bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn." Seems to contraict itself. Rich Farmbrough, 13:48 11 December 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Pronunciation of Pinochet

^ Pronunciation (IPA): /aw'gusto/ or a'gusto/, /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/. (i.e. "Pih-noh-CHET" is correct rather than the common mispronunciation "Pih-noh-SHAY").

On NPR this morning they played a recording of Pinochet's supporters singing where they were pronouncing it Pih-noh-SHAY. Also, the reporter specifically talked about the pronouciation and said that most everyone in Chile says Pih-noh-SHAY and that only English speakers say Pih-nih-CHET. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.134.136.5 (talk) 16:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Can we have a written source for that. The English mispronunciation of Pinochet is one of the first things I learnt in Spanish (equal to the mispronunciation of Chavez) and I have never heard any Spanish speakers pronounce it in the French way, either with Pinochet or Chavez, and it strikes me as English imperialism/ignorance, not knowing the difference between Spanish and French, SqueakBox 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Oh please, get a life. ^^^^What the heck does this have to do with anything? So easy to blame the English/French Imperialism for everything? People ahev different wasy of pronouncing things that are the same, its the way of humans, not "ignorance". My girlfriend is from Peru and she pronounces it "Pinochè" Remember they have Chilean TV in Peru. 74.101.223.160 04:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we get a written source for Pih-noh-CHET? If not, the unsourced assertation that Pih-noh-CHET should be deleted.

Absolutely not, it is the French pronunciation that needs a written source. Pih-noh-CHET merely follows Spanish pronunciation rules and thus doesnt need sourcing. Given that sh doesnt exist in Spanish and that according to Spanish written rules the lasty bit would be pronounced Pinochey it is clearly for those who argue the Spanish in Chile ignore the basic rules of pronunciation who need to source their claims, SqueakBox 19:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice. You need no source because you know you are right despite a resounding lack of evidence. Pinochet is a French surname. Surely you wouldn't default the pronounciation of all words to that of the country they are used in despite their origin? Or do I need to tell my friend with the surname Pimont to start pronouncing the "nt" in his name since he lives in America? I invite you to listen to the NPR story at: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6607666. In particular pay attention to the Chilean chant at 0:17 to 0:22 and the discussion from 2:00 - 2:15 and note that Nathan Crooks actually lives in Chile and presumably knows much better that you how the Chileans pronunce the word.

Please sign your comments with ~~~~ oir thety are in danger of being ignored, thanks, SqueakBox 20:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why assume I dont live there? I will listen this evening (working right now) and feedback, I will also look for an internet radio/tv for the pronunciation in the non french style, SqueakBox 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

another reference: http://www.slate.com/id/1001989/ looks like Pih-noh-CHAY is the actual pronounciation in Chile (which jibes with the audio chant). I assumed you are a British ex-pat living on the edge of a Caribbean city in Latin America. My point isn't that I know definitively how it is pronounced. My point is simply that the assertation that Pih-noh-CHET is correct has no factual basis. ~~~~ whatever that means. I find it humorous that someone would ignore rational thought simply because some trival rule wasn't followed.

(edit conflict) Yes okay, Chile isnt on the Caribbean coast, so fair assumption. I will lopok into this one, I know I pronounce my surname in the german nopt the English way so I cant discount what you say, SqueakBox 20:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have lived in Chile for 11 years now and can vouch for the fact that the pronounciation is certainly Pih-noh-CHET. The "SHAY" pronounciation used in foreign non-Spanish media is often a source of amusement to Chileans. The name certainly has French origins but it is common for names that are passed down to the descendants of immigrants to adapt to the norms of the new homeland's language. GringoInChile 20:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting and certainly confirms what I have been told and what I hear myself in the admittedly non-Chilean Latin American tv (telesur, CNN etc), SqueakBox 20:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/how_to_say/ It seems within Chile there is a variation in pronounciation. Unless someone can find a reference as to how Augusto Pinochet pronounced it himself any reference what is the correct pronounciation is bogus. Perhaps a note that Pinochet is pronounced in various ways even within Chile is apppropriate.

Well you definitely cant say "Pinochet is pronounced in various ways even within Chile is apppropriate" without sourcing it. I didnt think much of the BBC article, I am afraid. Why she would think ch (originally an es leter) is difficult for Spanish speakers to pronounce and not Sh is beyond me, and while it is on a bbc site its clearly very bloggy and so doesnt merit being a source, SqueakBox 21:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Then simply remove the unsourced "(i.e. "Pih-noh-CHET" is correct rather than the common mispronunciation "Pih-noh-SHAY"

The common "English" mispronunciation you mean? SqueakBox 21:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No, footnote one should simply say ^ Pronunciation (IPA): /aw'gusto/ or a'gusto/, /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/"

I'm chilean. I think both IPA transcriptions are correct... Well, maybe I'd put a voiced velar fricative instead of an occlusive, so It should look like /aw'ɣusto/ or a'ɣusto/. It doesn't matter if the guy's name is french, Pinochet himself pronounced his name as the average chilean does.. Who are you to tell the man how to pronounce his own name?--Dolichocephalus 01:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this could work as a source... you can listen to the chilean reporter saying /a'ɣusto pino'ʧεt/ --Dolichocephalus 01:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the vast majority of the country says -Chet, but a large minority especially those with a great deal of formal education say -Shay. So both pronunctiations would be correct. TheDeadlyShoe 09:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

On tv last night (telesur and cnn) nobody said shay and everyone, Chilean or otherwise, said chet or che, so no problem sourcing that this is used, SqueakBox 17:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The assertation that CHET is the only correct pronounciation was challenged. No citiation has been made which supports it. Indeed, several sources have been cited to indicate that within Chile both CHET and CHAY are common. Please do not re-add the challenged information unless a source can be added. Bcostley 17:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Totally untrue. I just gave a source, ie telesur, it may not be a written source but it is a verifiable source. Even the daughter of Pinochet referred to him as Pinoche, and it looks to me like English language POV pushing to claim it was shay, SqueakBox 18:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a source making it clear how to and not to pronounce his name, SqueakBox 18:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

which is contridicted by the same source: [4] plus you just said his daughter uses CHAY, why assert that she is incorrect? To be very clear - I am not pushing to say shay is correct, only that CHET and CHAY are commonly used. Bcostley 18:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No I said his daughter said che not chay (chey in spanish to rhyme with ley or rey), the difference being there is not dipthong in che, so I argue that che and chet are correct but chey is incorrect (this dipthong is quite subtle but very clear), SqueakBox 18:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you put che, chet, and chey into IPA so we can be clear on what you mean by each? Bcostley 19:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm reluctant as I dont read IPA but it should be done, if you need more clarity from me as to exactly what I mean I am happy to do that, listening to Spanish is one thing, IPA is another, SqueakBox 19:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

chet is probably pretty clear. I suspect what you call che is what I've been calling chay which is why the IPA would help. But it isn't necessary as long as the footnote doesn't identify the chet as the only one correct pronounciation.

The most comprehensive source appears to be this one, and it includes a video of Pinochet pronouncing his own name. Apparently, there's dispute as to how it's pronounced in his family as well. And it's clear that no one form predominates in Chile. I'll change the footnote soon. --Xiaopo (Talk) 08:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a blogsite, and so is unacceptable as a source. The sound on the video is of very poor quality, as is noted on the site. There are many other videos on YouTube/Google Video where Pinochet can be heard (use "Pinochet" as the search term) spoken by a large variety of speakers with varying degrees of clarity. Most educated South American (including Chilean) Spanish speakers I have met say pino'ʧεt, although other variants certainly exist, particularly in lower speech registers. My own Spanish teacher, a Chilean, says pino'ʧεt, as do all of the many South American expatriates (including Chileans) my daughter has met in Geneva. My daughter speaks South American Spanish at essentially native level, interacts extensively with South American expatriates and is doing a Master of Applied Linguistics degree. The current form of the footnote is, in my view, a reasonable representation of the situation. In Australia, where I live, most English speakers say pino'ʃe. As pointed out by others, the IPA transcription of Augusto should be au'ɣusto/a'ɣusto rather than au'gusto/a'gusto, and I would support this change being made, with an indication of the value of ɣ for those unfamiliar with the IPA/Spanish phonetics. AussieBoy 02:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I was born in Chile, and lived here all my live, I've always heard /pino'ʧεt/ in the media, at home, at school, in the street... and no, there's no reputable source because here the pronunciation is not an issue, you just read it as it is spelt. In chilean spanish the [ʃ] sound is an allophone of the phoneme /ʧ/ and there's a lot of people who can't even tell the difference between those two (mainly the uneducated who tend to use [ʃ]). Also, many people ommit final plosives(in this case, the final t), just because it's easier to pronunce. Many wikipedians seem to seek verification instead of truth. It's like not being able to write that water is wet unless you can cite a reputable source which has expressed this. Too much tacit knowledge is lost because some people in the community take the verification requirement to an unproductive extreme. --Dolichocephalus 20:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is a trend that needs challenging, SqueakBox 20:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "President de facto" or "dictator"?

Which of these is better, "President de facto" or "Dictator"? First, it was written "President de facto" but -afterwards- somebody changed it to "Dictator". Both mean basically the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.33.91.50 (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

That's easy. Try editing tha article on Fidel Castro and state that he is (or was?) a dictator. Such statement will be reversed in five (5) minutes at most. The truth is obviously secondary to personal beliefs. AVM 13:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The truth is we must remain impartial recognising both Fidel and Pinochet have detractors and supporters, SqueakBox 23:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC) [ After the ratification of the 1980 constitution, he was the President of Chile. Before, we has just the president of the Junta. You can call it a dictator. Not after 1980, however.

Best to just call it the president of the Junta, SqueakBox 03:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC) ]All major news agencies, AFP , AP (and White House spokesman), Reuters (CNN), call him dictator. Vints 07:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

What you mean is all major US news agencies which isnt the same thing at all when we are dealiong with a non US citizen but even if all news agencies everywhere were to call him that we still dont because we are an encyclopedia with a duty to fulfill WP:NPOV and not a news agency, SqueakBox 16:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"all major US news agencies"!? Reuters and AFP are not american news agencies. History books also call him dictator. You need to find a reliable source which explicitly says he was not a dictator.Vints 07:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The status of the Fidel Castro article is irrelevant to whether Pinochet should be described as a "dictator"; that should be taken up at Talk:Fidel Castro. List of military dictators by rank includes Pinochet; Military dictatorship includes Chile (1973-1990); List of dictators includes Pinochet (and Castro, incidentally).. Despite its frequent use as a polemical term, the word "dictator" does in fact have an NPOV definition, which clearly applies to Pinochet and his rule. Kwertii 04:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes but wikipedia policy on weasel words is relevant. "Dictator", like "terrorist", needs to be used carefully as in a case like this it will just provoke long and drawn out edit wars, SqueakBox 04:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have long since noted my objections to the "weasel words" policy in great detail on that policy article's talk page, and many other editors agreed with me. He was not elected; he seized and maintained control through the use of military force; and there was no meaningful opposition permitted under his rule. His word was law. This is a perfectly NPOV instance of a "dictator" - and, as noted, many other Wikipedia articles describe him as such. Even Pinochet's supporters don't generally deny that he was a dictator, they rationalize his actions as being necessary to halt the spread of Communism. Kwertii 04:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If describing someone as a "dictator" is forbidden, then List of dictators and List of military dictators by rank and all of the content of military dictatorship that makes reference to specific countries, among many other articles, need to be deleted in order to be consistent. I don't think you're seriously suggesting that that should be done. Kwertii 04:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I much prefer "He was not elected; he seized and maintained control through the use of military force; and there was no meaningful opposition permitted under his rule. His word was law." to Military dictator as it actually gives readers an idea of his rule (assuming you source it) whereas the oproblem with a word like dictator is that it is very vague and generalised, part of its weasel quality, and I personally would rather not call any modern or controversial politician a dictator on wikipedia, arguing that to an extent the weasel word policy is to prevent edit warring in ana open source encyclopedia, SqueakBox 04:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe you are seriously arguing that Pinochet was not a dictator. Even his supporters don't argue that point. Point me to one published source where an academic or other authority, even a major news agency, from anywhere in the world, makes the case that Pinochet was not a dictator. Kwertii 04:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Or rather, you aren't even arguing that Pinochet wasn't a dictator, since you support including the definition of a dictator attached to Pinochet's name. You are arguing that someone out there might argue that Pinochet was not a dictator, and so we have to accomodate them proactively. As I said, let's see one reputable source that argues that he was not a dictator (in contrast to the mountain of reputable sources, along with his own supporters, who don't dispute that point.) Kwertii 04:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a BBC (very leftist public service broadcasting) profile of Pinochet that doesnt mention the word dictator, so this is a reputable source that doesnt argue that he was a dictator. Clearly we dont have to find a source that argues he is not a dictator in order to not call him a dictator, sourcing and citing doesnt work like that and the fact that reliable sources are not all labelling him a dictator is in itself sufficient, SqueakBox 15:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

And here are some BBC articles that call him a dictator. With your way of arguing, if we find an article that doesn't explicitly mentions e.g. that he was Army Commander in Chief then we can't write in Wikipedia that he was Army Commander in Chief. Vints 18:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I am arguing that we should stick to policy and not use weasel words like dictator. Kwertii implied that everyone is calling him a dictator and I gave that ref to show that this is not true. What I dont need to do is find an article saying he wasnt a dictator, that misunmderstands what sourcing is all about, SqueakBox 18:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Firstly, I didn't say "show me a reputable source that does not specifically use the word 'dictator' to describe Pinochet", I said "show me a reputable source that argues (actively) that Pinochet was not a dictator." I am pretty sure you won't find one, as even his supporters don't seriously argue that point.
• Secondly there is not, and has never been, consensus around the so-called "weasel words" policy; see Wikipedia talk:Avoid weasel words.
• Thirdly, the "weasel words" policy is not even applicable in this case. As the opening sentence of Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words says, "Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources." There are plenty of reputable and verifiable sources that describe Pinochet as a "dictator" (and none that I have seen that argue that he is not.) Go read Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words again. Kwertii 23:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I certainly dont need to provide a source actively saying he isnt a dictator in order to justify not calling him one, as I said before that isnt how sourcing works, one uses sourcing to prove something not to disprove it. The WP:AWW also says "The main problem with weasel words is that they interfere with Wikipedia's neutral point of view." which is where I am coming from with this, it just shows an anti Pinochet viewpoint and that must be avoided at all costs, ie taking sides around a highly contrioversial figure, SqueakBox 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to grasp what a "weasel word" is. The "weasel word" policy refers to making unsourced statements such as "Many people say that Pinochet is a dictator". The "weasel words" are "many people say...", not "is a dictator." It is meant to encourage people to source the statements that they use, not to prevent people from using unpleasant, yet accurate, descriptions. We already have tons of reputable and verifiable sources that say Pinochet was a dictator. Kwertii 04:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I also dont think we should call Allende a marxist even though this is also true, SqueakBox 22:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

That is patently absurd. Kwertii 23:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Marxist" is not a perjorative term outside the context of right-wing politics. Allende was a self-described Marxist. He was head of the Socialist Party of Chile. I'm not sure at this point if you actually believe this or if you're simply trolling. Kwertii 23:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Its the wikipedia way, avoid contention and make WP:NPOV along with verifiability as the guiiding lights of the project, SqueakBox 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Wikipedia way" also entails using the talk page to discuss disputes, rather than using it to hide behind policy. So far, you have not responded to any of the points I raised. He was verifiably and in a perfectly NPOV sense of the word a "dictator". Kwertii 04:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt he was president, he self appointed himself to that position. It's hard to argue otherwise. I came up with compromise wording:

(November 25, 1915 – December 10, 2006) was a general and President of Chile. He led a military junta to power in 1973 through a U.S.-backed^[1] coup d'état, deposing the democratically elected president Salvador Allende. In 1974, Pinochet appointed himself president [5][6] and assumed power for 17 years without elections. He implemented economic reforms which his supporters credit with the development of the robust modern Chilean economy^[2][3]. Pinochet's government also implemented the anti-dissident campaign called "Operation Condor", during which around 3,000 suspects were murdered and around 30,000 more were tortured. He stepped down from power in 1990, after losing a national plebiscite in 1988. At the time of his death in 2006, Pinochet was facing around 300 criminal charges in Chile for human rights abuses committed under his rule and embezzlement.^{[citation needed]}

I will improve it if some form of consensus is reached.--Pethr 02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, there were elections, three in fact. They were referendums on his presidency and were held on 1978, 1981, and 1988. There is of course doubt about the fairness of the first two, in which Pinochet won overwhelmingly, but still I don't think it is correct to say there were no elections. The 1981 plebiscite is particularly important because it also approved the current Chilean Constitution. Marmaduque 16:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

One reason why I'd rather just call him by the most succinct and accurate English word available to describe what Pinochet was - a "dictator" - than muddling around with "unelected" vs. "elected in rigged elections" vs. whatever other bizarre and indirect way some of our editors would have him described. The Economist, incidentally a pretty far right magazine, has the subheadline "Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, dictator of Chile, died on December 10th, aged 91" in his obituary in the Dec 16th issue. Kwertii 20:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The Economist is FAR-RIGHT??!!! They are centrists for goodness sake. They even supported Kerry in the 2004 US elections. They oppose the right-wing former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi. It SUPPORTS gay marriage, gun control, and the abolition of gay marriage. See The Economist editorial stance. Marmaduque 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Here in Chile, members of the Communist Party call him a Tyrant (El tirano Pinochet) or a Murderer, right wing supporters call him Former president of the Republic and in the media and those who try to sound neutral just say dictator or former ruler. --Dolichocephalus 20:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The two most important serios newspapers in Chile, El Mercurio and La Tercera, both refer to him as former president or at least former ruler, but I've yet to see dictator. Marmaduque 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you explain this, this? Look at this one--Dolichocephalus 06:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

If you put the pov tag back on the article this is the place to give your reasons. if you dont give any rerasons here I will remove it as we cant make this article more NPOV unless we know what is POV. It doesnt appear POV but instead balanced to me, SqueakBox 23:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV editors

Please be familiar with WP:NPOV before editing. I dont particularly like Pinochet but find myself defending him against editors who are filled with hatred towards him and appear not to care about our POV policy but only about putting their own anti Pinochet views in the article, SqueakBox 16:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I'd like to see references on all Pinochet's quotes. I didn't search for every single one of them but I couldn't find those I searched for. I don't think it's appropriete to have unsourced quotes here, not to mention there is Wikiquote for those things!--Pethr 01:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed and removed, SqueakBox 01:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it's the right thing to do. I would copy it to wikiquotes if it had any sense of credibility but I rather think that someone completely made it up to cast negative light on A.P. Well if the light can be any more negative - Pinochet is one of the creatures where I have really hard time reverting edits which reflect more the bad side. Anyway, it survived too long! We have to be more careful about additions to this article.--Pethr 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they were made up, I recognized a few of them. The quote about Human Rights being a Marxist invention was given in a CNN en Español interview in 90s, for example. They're probably hard to find because they were given in Spanish originally. However, I also agree with their removal. Maybe a link to WikiQuotes should be included instead; I havent checked but I'm sure there will be some quotes of his there. GringoInChile 02:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

They seem to be a translated version of a selection of quotes from this page in the Spanish Wikiquote. GringoInChile 02:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Great work, It would still be good to source them and then put them on Wikiquotes. I don't understand a word in Spanish, so may be someone else will volunteer. May be it will be pretty easy to find sources to most of them in Spanish language media.--Pethr 02:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I was the editor who added the quotes. They were all from one source: La Nación newspaper. A single reference for every quote was added after the last quote, because I didn't want to clutter the article with "a,b,c,d,e,f,g,,,etc [reference]." I will put them on Wikiquote. It brings a smile to my face to know that some of you thought they were fake. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I didnt think they were fake, just inappropriate to have so many though one or 2 would do no harm, SqueakBox 15:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The grandson

Is Augusto Pinochet Molina, a grandson, not relevant to be included in the See also section? -- Zorro CX 12:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "to save the country from communism"

It does not advance NPOV to present this claim as base fact, particularly when it is done by misrepresenting a source.

• The cited article does not say that the purpose of Condor was to save the country from communism
• It does not explain how Condor might have advanced that goal.
• With regard to what the article says, it is the opinion of one reporter.
• If people want to learn about Condor and whom it targeted, they can follow the link to its Wikipedia article.

Gazpacho 18:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the opening isnt POV, by all means remove this if you replace it with other pro Pinochet POV but we cannot just have lots of criticism anmd no positive stuff as that violates the WP:NPOV which is at the heart of our work. Please address the issue of POV, SqueakBox 19:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Condor was only added to the opening lately and if we are incapable of describing it from an NPOV point of view we need to not mention it in the opening, SqueakBox 19:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Please stop just adding anti Pinochet material without any balance. That breaks POV, if you want to add lots of negative stuff do a POV check (your responsibility) or it will look like POV pushing, SqueakBox 20:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with leaving Condor out of the intro. However, there is no more obligation under WP:NPOV to say that Pinochet had people killed and tortured to save the nation, than there is to say that Hitler killed Jews to save the nation. If Pinochet said it, then quote him. It's far too controversial to present as an uncontested fact. Gazpacho 20:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We would have to be careful to NPOV Hitler too, however unpleasant that may be. This isnt the most pleasant article to work on but we must stick to NPOV. By sticking to NPOV we can create a credible article and what we say in the opening is critical, SqueakBox 20:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"Sticking to NPOV" does not mean presenting controversial claims as if they were uncontroversial. The NPOV policy page and the NPOV tutorial both discuss this in detail. Gazpacho 20:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I second that. "NPOV" does not mean "uncontroversial", and it doesn't mean "avoid unpleasant details" either. We are not writing an encyclopedia for kindergarteners who need to be shielded from unpleasantness. Pinochet is best known for the well-attested Operation Condor, mass killings, and mass torture in most of the world. This is not even particularly controversial. There are plenty of sources on this cited already, and there are plenty more available if you type "augusto pinochet" into Google. The intro needs to reflect this rather than try to whitewash his reputation. As I said before, SqueakBox, present just one reputable source that argues that Pinochet was not a dictator or that his regime did not conduct mass murder and torture. (But you won't find any, because even his staunchest supporters don't argue those points; they try to justify his actions as unpleasant but necessary instead, which the intro does mention, in the interests of NPOV.) Also, you keep referencing other articles as though their content was somehow directly relevant to what we ought to include in this article. If you have an issue with Adolf Hitler, take it up at Talk:Adolf Hitler, not here. Kwertii 21:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Why would I wish to take issues about Pinochet to Adolf Hitler? Remeber we are writing an encyclopedia not an isolated article on Pinochet and mentioning other articles is normal practice in wikipedia. NPOV means presenting both sides of the argument and just before my recent edit that clearly was not happening in the opening, it came across as being written by some POV pushing Pinochet haters who are happy to source his every bad act but delete good things said about him. That is the recipe for a POV article, SqueakBox 22:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SqueakBox. Walton monarchist89 16:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concentration camps?

The unsourced statement that Pinochet left behind...concentration camps seems to me to be POV, unless a source for it can be obtained. Although it can obviously be proven that Pinochet had detention camps/prisons for political prisoners, the phrase "concentration camps" is specific and pejorative, due to its associations with Nazism and genocide. For all his faults, Pinochet did not commit genocide - his regime executed less than 3,000, and did not single out any specific ethnic group. So it seems to be left-wing POV to deliberately use a phrase with Nazi connotations in relation to Pinochet. If no one comes up with a citation for the statement, I will delete it outright. Walton monarchist89 16:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Marmaduque 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Sadly, some user seems to think it's OK for them to revert this edit without discussing it on the talk page. I will continue to change "concentration camps" to "prison camps" until they provide explanation and/or a source. Walton monarchist89 18:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree too. This article has persistent problems from lefty POV pushers and this appears to be another example. Some people seem unable to aaccept that the rules of sourcing and NPOV also ap[ply here, SqueakBox 18:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What political ideology was he?

Daft question to most probably, but anyone?

Right-wing, anti-communist, SqueakBox 16:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hard to say. Pinochet was a soldier who did not care much for politics right until the coup. He can be considered anti-communist. In the end he was an economic libertarian, but during the economic crisis in 1981 he briefly employed Keynesian economics. His governemnt was definitely authoritarian at first in the sense that it restricted some personal liberties, bu by the end of his government I'd say 1987-1990, there gradually was more free speech and other such liberties. Pinochet manained he supported democracy but that the economic ruin brought about by Allende's government meant that it had to be suspended until the country could recover. So, yes, in the end, he was a right-winger. Marmaduque 17:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The definitive answer would have to come from Spanish-language sources, but what is in English suggests that he was a Chilean nationalist and determined not to have Chile depend entirely on either superpower. It was typical throughout the Cold War for the left to describe any anti-communist leader as a fascist (e.g. Chomsky, The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism). However Pinochet himself didn't come from any ideology of national supremacy akin to Nazism or Italian Fascism, even if he made use of people like Paul Schäfer and Alfredo Stroessner. Gazpacho 18:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New constitution in 1980

Who approved this new constitution? I don't understand why Pinochet, alleged dictator would allow a new constitution which would threaten his continued control of power. The article doesn't seem to explain this bit well.. --Rebroad 20:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

One possibility is that international parties demanded that he demonstrate his intent to restore civilian rule before they would deal with him. Another possibility is that he wasn't lying about his reasons for taking power in the first place.

Also see Gustavo Leigh. Gazpacho 07:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dissolution of Congress in September 1973 after the coup

The congress WAS dissolved in 1973 immediately after the coup. This is history, you can see http://www.bcn.cl/pags/legislacion/leyes/resena_const.htm (National Congress Library) a brief history of the congress, where you can see:

"el 11 de septiembre de 1973, se produce un golpe de estado que significa el quiebre institucional de Chile, estableciéndose una Junta Militar encabezada por el general Augusto Pinochet, quién suspende las garantías individuales contenidas en la Constitución del 25, aún cuando se declara que ésta continua vigente, por otra parte, se disuelve el Congreso Nacional."

(im working on a translation)

Specifically, under the decree number 27 dated september 21 1973 (published officially september 24 1973), the congress was dissolved.

Only one more thing: According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator, "[...]In modern usage, the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly[...]". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.73.59.100 (talk) 03:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

• I agree with Pethr. Also, if we go according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator, "[...]In modern usage, the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly[...]". In that case then he was NOT a dictator, since he DID NOT hold ANY power to make laws, because that power was radicated into the Military Junta, of which he was not a member. Granted, he could influence the outcome of the Junta's resolutions, he held extraordinary amount of personal power, etc, etc, but then that would not agree with the definition. I don't see a point in making an edit war over this AGAIN. Mel Romero 04:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• The dissolution of the congress must be mentioned in the article because is not a minor fact under the regime on Mr. Pinochet. Why edit war?

I agree on this one. Usually it goes like this: 1) Find credible source preferably at least one in English 2) write paragraph about your subject in appropriate section of the article 3) if it is important enough mention it in article summary/introduction. Thank you.--Pethr 04:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] THE OPENING SENTENCE SHOULD BE MORE ACCURATE, TRUE

CALLING HIM A PRESIDENT SIDES WITH THE PRO-PINOCHET SIDE, CALLING HIM A DICTATOR IS NEUTRAL, ITS REALISTIC, IT CAN BE WELL REFERANECD, IT IS WIDELY THE CONSESUS ON WHAT HIS TIME IN POWER WAS, A DICTATORSHIP, ITS THE TRUTH, ITS WHAT HE IS REPORTED AS ON THE OVERWEALMING CONSENSUS OF INTERNATION NEWS OUTLETS. HE IS WIDELY AND MOST NOTABLE AS "THE FORMER CHILEAN DICTATOR, GENERAL PINOCHET" CALLING HIM PRESIDENT SIDES WITH THE PRO PINOCHET SIDE AND IS UTTER AND TOTAL BULLSHIT, IT IS SIMPLY FALSE. CALLING HIM PRESIDENT OF THE MILITARY JUNTA IS NOT FALSE, THATS THE TRUTH, IT SHOULD BE MENTIONED AND IT SHOULD ALSO SAY HE WAS A GENERAL, AND THAT THE OVERWEALMING CONSENSUS HAS AGREED THAT HE WAS A DICTATOR ALLTHOUGH THE FEELING IS NOT UNIVERSAL AMOUNGST HIS SUPPORTERS, I THINK SUCH A DESCRIPTION IS FAR MORE WELL ROUNDED, TRUE, AND NEUTRAL, ITS ALSO EASYLY CITEABLE, NOT MANY OUTLETS OUTSIDE OF CHILE SAY THE FORMER PRESIDENT DIED OF.... IN FACT IN CHILE THEY DIDNT EVEN SAY THAT THEY AVOID CALLING HIM A DICTATOR IN FAVOR OR NATIONAL RECONCILIATION AND ALSO DO NOT MENTION HE WAS A PRESIDENT EITHER IN ORDER NOT TO OFFEND THE SURVIVORS OF HIS BRUTAL GENOCIDE. PRESIDENTS DONT KILL AND TORTURE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. EVEN IF YOU LOVE PINOCHET HE WAS A DICTATOR, YOU LOVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE JUNTA NOT THE PRESIDENT OF CHILE, YOU LOVE A GENERAL, AND A DICTATOR, ITS OK, THATS THE TRUTH, IF YOU LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM ITS SIMPLY WHAT HE IS/WAS AND WHAT/WHO YOU LOVE OR HATE, OR MOST IMPORTANTLY ARE TRYING TO IMPARTIALLY READ ABOUT FROM AN ACADEMIC SOURCE, A ENCYCLOPEDIA. LETS FIND A BETTER OPENING, MORE REALISTIC AND TRUTHFUL AND ACCURATE OPENING SENTANCE, PARAGRAPH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Qrc2006 (talk • contribs) 01:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

sssh... could you please tone your voice down?--CSTAR 19:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dictator is a POV term, due to its negative connotations. As you say, the most accurate term for Pinochet is 'President of the Military Junta' as this was his official title, and he also held the rank of General in the Chilean armed forces. Calling him 'President' signifies that he was the de facto head of state of Chile, but I agree that 'President of the Military Junta' is more accurate. Although it may be true that many people consider him a 'dictator', this doesn't mean that the article can reject the point of view of his supporters. The fact is that the word 'dictator' is, in modern English usage, usually used as a pejorative label by a leader's political opponents. See the discussion at Josef Stalin for further dispute on the use of the term. (Not that I'm comparing Pinochet to Stalin - they were opposites - but in both cases, the term 'dictator' is subjective.) Walton monarchist89 09:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

So the BBC, ABC, the AP and Reuters are Pinochet Opponets and POV pushers? They call him a dictator when announcing his death. Its not POV its the prevailing assessment, its not favorable or neglagable its the truth. Calling Jack the Ripper a murderer is not a POV, just because the word murderer has a bad connotation since most people view murder negatively. Calling George W Bush a Conservative is not POV either, even though many people find the term conservative to be perjorative as many people would find the word communist perjorative. Calling Jane Doe, who works for the IRS a tax collector is not POV, EVERYONE HATES THEM!, but its still descriptive, accurate and an honest potrayal of her profession. An article that mentions someone that "came to power" "wasnt elected" though a "coup detat" who had a "regime" rather than an administration and was sought to be tried for "human rights violations" and is reported as a dictator by the overwealming total of the world media should at least mention the word dictator or this prevailing opinion, it is notable-even if we dont say PINOCHET WAS A DICTATOR which is by no means a strech, it should definatly say PINOCHET IS WIDELY REGARDED AS A DICTATOR BY THE WORLD MEDIA AND PUBLIC ALLTHOUGH THIS IS CONTROVERSIAL AMOUNSGT SOME and lets put this silly discussion to a rest. this is embarassing for an encyclopediaqrc2006/email 23:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling him President reflects the truth. Calling him dictator is whta is taking sides, besides it is a weasel word andf should be avoided everywhere other than dictator on wikipedia, SqueakBox 00:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The main problems with "dictator" are:

• It's not very informative, because it means different things in different contexts. We can't just label someone and expect readers to understand what the person did to earn that label. The current intro explains: he came to power in a coup, made himself president, ruled without elections, and had people killed. That's more informative than label.
• While some instances are easy, others are widely questioned, and allowing the term in the easy cases would encourage people to fight over the others. Examples of questionable cases: Chavez, Mugabe, leaders of communist China, Fujimori, Musharraf, Ali Khamenei, etc., etc. The only stable way to resolve the question of dictatorship is to let the readers answer it themselves.

Gazpacho 00:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it goes without saying, that I'm with SqueakBox and Gazpacho on this one. Wikipedia doesn't call anyone names but rather carefully describes what happened letting every individual reader to make his own mind. Fabrication of ready-to-consume opinions is domain of mass media (POV). There'd be no reason of having Wikipedia if we were unable to enforce WP:NPOV, it's core policy.--Pethr 01:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

calling him president is truth!!!!??? cite that! what truth, when was he elected? what party was he a member of? what percentage of the vote did he receieve. in this case dictator is not a point of view. its the truth, no one denies he was a dictator besides pinochets cronies. the word president is inaccurate, false, and misleading. if it cant say dictator is shouldnt say president, thats taking the pinochetistas' side its a point of view. Pinochet and the word dictator and the term "PINOCHET DICTATORSHIP" go hand in hand, they are always mentioned together. i dont care about ahmadinejad or chavez or mugabe, this is about this article. it should at least be mentioned. someone with no knowledge of the subject wrongfully think he was never a dictator, and that he was elected. this is a place or learning, all viewpoints need to be included. especially an overwealming position such as him being a dictator. A dictator is an asshole who seizes power and doesnt let go and rules with an iron fist and silences the opposition with violance and fear. hows that for a definition?qrc2006/email 03:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia cannot take a point of view on whether or not he is a dictator, the reader must, if it is a point of view as you say, why is the only point of view being used is that of his so-called presidency?qrc2006/email 03:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

pinochet tortured and killed and had my family beaten and raped! hes an asshole, but thats my point of view. he IS a former dictator. thats neautral, he simply is, look up dictator in the dictionary, or in the wiktionary for crying outloud, you know exactly what it means!!

this one is pure logic if the chile coup article says "General Augusto Pinochet exploited the situation to seize total power and establish an anti-communist military dictatorship which lasted until 1990." why is it that during a dictatorship, the dictatorships leader isnt called a dictator?

iran venezuela and zibabwe all have functioning assemblies so does cuba, pinochet dissolved this, his rule was autocratic, how bout that autocratic leader, instead of dictator?

OPENING SENTANCE OF THE SPANISH WIKIPEDIA

Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (Valparaíso, Chile, 25 de noviembre de 1915 - Santiago, Chile, 10 de diciembre de 2006) fue un militar y dictador chileno.

Augusto Jose Ramon Pinochet Ugarte (Valaprais, Chile, 25, November, 1915 - Santiago, Chile 10, December 2006) was a military-person and Chilean dictator.

there is no such debate there.

Spanish wikipedia is different. Here the consensus is to remove the word. Why ignore that? SqueakBox 04:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Chile was governed by military junta not just by Pinochet
• 1980 plebiscite (however disputatious) gave some legal framework to Pinochet's presidency
• President doesn't necessarily need to be elected (can be appointed or assume power illigaly)
• Everyone can judge for himself since facts about his presidency are included.--Pethr 04:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

it was not govered my the junta, just as the army is not goverened by liuetenants or colornels its goverened by the generals and highest ranking officer. what legal framework, if Dictator is hard to define, calling this a presidency and using the word president is making the definition of president hard to define by your bastardizing of it. pinochet was not appointed. he took power, people who do coups are dictators, why cant you see that? people cant judge whether or not he is a dictator since those arguements are being excluded.

Perhaps because we dont want many bios to be a point of feuding between pro and anti brigades all because of a charged word like dictator. A President is one who presides, not one who has been democratically elected, SqueakBox 05:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

presides over what? is my dad the president of my house since he presides over my family? was margaret thatcher president since she presided over england is chancellor angela merkel president of germany? is god president of the universe since he presides over everything, should i add that to the god article, God: Former, Current and Future president of the universe and all people since he presides over us.

Well a murderer is someone who kills people. pinochet killed people can we call him that? can we use the word genocide? or man? lets just call him an antity as not to be POV about whether he was a living thing or not.

1 a : a person granted absolute emergency power; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b : one holding complete autocratic control c : one ruling absolutely and often oppressively

from Mirriam webster

1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

Jacket image of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary

dictator

 • noun a ruler with total power over a country. 

from oxford

from dictionary.com

My 2 cents

Although dictator does have a negative connotation, it is accurate in this case. President is also accurate, and both should be used.

(JoeCarson 12:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC))

There's no way back, once you start such labeling. Mark him "dictator" and his supporters will come and replace it with "benevolent dictator" since, in their view, he governed for the benefit of people rather of himself. Isn't it more balanced to describe how he came to power, what he did wrong and why he thought it was right thing to do? Important facts are presented in the article, they're are not explanatory enough?--Pethr 18:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. We want an informative, educational article not a controversial one nad certainly not one that takes sides (the good encyclopedia writer may hate Pinochet or love him but neither would show up in the article itself. That is WP:NPOV, SqueakBox 19:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

All that matters is that president and dictator are both accurate terms to describe Pinochet. "Pinochet was benevolent" is a normative statement. A comparison between Pinochet and other dictators would be appropriate, and most readers may judge him relatively benevolent. However, the editor clearly should not include that adjective in his description.

(JoeCarson 20:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC))

These arguments over definitions and which one should apply are exactly why the word "dictator" is taboo in English Wikipedia. User:172 can tell you more about the background if you really want to know. Gazpacho 20:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newspapers of record

By refusing to use the word dictator to describe Mr Pinochet, describing him instead as General and President, WP does take an unusual position vis-a-vis at least three newspapers who reported on Pinochet's death. Other examples abound. The editors of WP apparently then have decided, on their own, to sanitize Pinochet's image in the guise of neutrality, when most papers of record have actually referred to him as dicator (In the 4th example, Pinochet is not referred to as president in the Obit)

• The New York Times

Gen Augusto Pinochet Ugarte dies at age of 91; brutal dictator repressed and reshaped Chile for nearly two decades and became notorious symbol of human rights abuse and corruption; he seized power in bloody military coup in 1973 that toppled Marxist government of Pres Salvador Allende

• London Times Online

Thousands of Chileans have taken to the streets in demonstrations following the death last night of Augusto Pinochet, 91, the Chilean dictator who ruled his country with an iron fist from 1973 to 1990.

• El Mercurio This article doen't refer to him as dictator, but does not use the title "Presidente", only general to refer to him. Note that El Mercurio was supportive of Pinochet and the Coup against Allende.
• Folha de Sao Paulo The largest circulation daily in Latin America:

Após uma cerimônia de funeral abalada por discursos de defesa do golpe militar no Chile, proferidos por familiares do ditador Augusto Pinochet (morto no último domingo, 10), os restos mortais do general foram cremados na noite desta terça-feira (12) no cemitério Parque del Mar, na cidade costeira de Concón, segundo funcionários locais. Após a cremação em Concón, 130 km ao noroeste de Santiago, uma comitiva militar de oito automóveis levou as cinzas do ditador. —The preceding

unsigned comment was added by CSTAR (talk • contribs) 06:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Yeah forgot to sign, sorry. That was quick. --CSTAR 06:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

That's the difference between mass media and Wikipedia. Add BBC to the not-calling-names side of the list.[7]--Pethr 07:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that really true? How about here [8]?--CSTAR 07:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia does seek to be more inclusive of views than major newspapers (and certainly more than the New York Times). Gazpacho 10:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

If we interpret Wikipedia policy strictly, particularly no WP:OR, WP:RS, there is a basis for the exact opposite claim, that it is to say, that it shouldn't be more inclusive and should stickto what's in major publications worldwise. Particularly this clause:

It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;

Notice that I produced three examples from major newspapers; It's not clear what you mean by certainly more than the New York Times but there is a truly overwhelming number of papers and journals that refer to Pinochet as a dictator.

At the very least, the article should note Pinochet's claim to fame in the very first sentence: A chilean general who siezed power in Chile in a Coup d'état against Salvador Allende on September 11, 1973.

--CSTAR 18:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You argument would be helpful if there were any facts omitted from this article but there are not or at least nobody argues about that. Media has it's own agenda and often it's more suitable for them to categorize rather than discribe what happened. Once more, facts are presented in the article. May be some scholar/academic paper or scientific research on the subject would make the case. May be some sentence about world media calling him dictator but i don't think it will help the article to be any better. The article describes who he was even without words charged with undesirable conotations.--Pethr 19:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Pethr, it seems to me that whether or media has its own agenda or does not, is irrelevant as per WP:RS and WP:OR. I think the discussion really should center around these wikipeida policy/guidelines. --CSTAR 19:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

If we do that we must forget about inserting the weasel word dictator, SqueakBox 19:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is dictator a weasel word? We could say "Pinochet was a chilean male who wore dark glasses in public appearances early in his career". True statement. No words there that anybody could call "weasel".--CSTAR 19:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

See WP:Weasel words for an explanation of my choice of word, SqueakBox 19:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it follows from that guideline page that use of dictator is a weasel word. As is illustrated by the above links, the description dictator for Pinochet was certainly not invented here.

At the very least, what should come out of this discussion is how the defining first sentence of a person's WP article is formulated. For example Perry Smith clearly states why he was a notable person. Pinochet wasn't a notable person because he was a general or a president.--CSTAR 20:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont agree. I think being a President and also in the military are exactly what made him notable certainly until his arrest, and then his arrest on human rights charges was a third notable factor so I would mention that in the opening sentence before adding the word dictator. For me dictator conjures up Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin and its not a term I would particularly connect with any modern figure. We state clearly he wasnt democratically elected which IMO is sufficient, SqueakBox 20:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Imagine you asked someone (a student say) to describe Pinochet in a sentence. "He was a president of Chile and a general". Without stating that he was also responsible for the 193 coup d'etat, I would consider that a failing response, wouldn't you? I had thought the first sentence should answer the question of an individual's most notable characteristic. It seems to me that by failing to do this in this instance, you are establishing a different criterion from what is standard throughout most of Wikipedia.

Yes, it's clear we disagree. --CSTAR 21:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on, that is fully dealt with in the second sentence, which is again sufficient and currently given much more weight than his arrest in the UK and subsequent legal problenms in Chile so we are not neglecting this in any way, SqueakBox 21:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

"Oh come on" is not an argument, it is instead is a not very-subtle putdown of an interlocutor. This is an extremely important topic: the first sentence of any WIkipedia article. I'm sorry, you seem to act as the you owned this article, and refuse to discuss substantive issues of policy and guideline with regard to its structure and formulation. Further discussion seems to be pointless. --CSTAR 22:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Gazpacho. While Pinochet certainly fits most people's definition of a 'dictator', it is still coherently possible to argue that he was not (owing to the plebiscite, collective rule by the military junta etc.), and it is never the job of Wikipedia to make judgements. Fundamentally, it's always better to use the official title - for a similar situation check out the debate on Talk:North Korea as to the validity of the term "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". NPOV is the major principle to follow here. Walton monarchist89 17:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I was involved in a similar debate re Kim Jong-il a year or more back, sounds like it hasnt died down there either, and as in every bio or similar I oppose the use of the word dictator, SqueakBox 19:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a question of what one can argue coherently; that view is very close (if not indistinguishable from) original research. The responsability of WP editors is to accurately report what reliable sources actually say on the matter, not to introduce arguable "nuanced" positions. --CSTAR 19:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

No, by doing what you say we just report what his opponenets want and that is not acceptable given WP:NPOV, SqueakBox 21:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

no we report referanceable truth, he was a dictator, simple as that. and the junta did not govern, he did, the fact that a king has knights or that a prime minister has a parlament doesnt mean they are not king or president, the same is true that just because pinochet had subordinate does not mean he was not an autocrat. the generally undertood definition of president in modern times is that of an elected oficial, nothing else. "Someone who presides" is simply literal and technical, and too general. that definiton of president does not make sense here, because it is a broad generalization of anyone who is president of a commitee, club, political party, or nation. but the most frequent sense if i say someone is president-everyone first assumes, of where (where as in what country), if it is another type of presiding person, you say president... of the Model UN club, the University of California, etc. no news sources say he wasnt a dictator. the only people who say he wasnt a dictator are his cronies. and as for the whole benevolant debate, which you have imagined, that would be point of view, dictator is not. he was one by definition. every president/prime minister/chancelor in the world is elected by direct or indirect vote, was apointed by an elected body or line of succession during the 20th century. furthermore, you say calling him dictator is taking a side, why are you taking sides. this is wikipedia all points of view deserve mention, especially i would think a so widely held opinion. i mean wow the NY Times, BBC, CNN, TVchile, etc sure have some balls to be reporting their opinions, instead of news. the fact is this is not an opinion. and if you consider it to be, you still have to stop blocking it because all points-of-view should be included. i think it also deserves mention within the article that some sectors of chilean society regard him with very high esteem, a "benevolent dictator" as you put it. he's a cult personality for sure. he's also hated by many chileans, that also doesnt not appear in the article. DICTATOR DICTATOR, DICTAOR DICTATOR. look it up in the dictionary, and tell me why this is an opinion. does mirriam webster and oxford and dictionary.com all have opinions on what a dictator is now? get a grip with reality. wikipedia writing polycy should overide the weasol word ruling you seem to have. i think this should be brought up to a wider debate. and furthermore, you seem to be the only one reverting this. not people who think he is not a dictator, who cannot come up with any citations. but it should be mentioned if some people think that "plebicite" gave him legal standing.

[edit] Why WikiProject France?!?

I doubt very much that this article should be included in the France WikiProject; there's hardly any relevant connection apart from his surname. I propose that the tag be removed. GringoInChile 17:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

No idea what it was doing here but it has been removed, SqueakBox 17:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybr he does belong there, he is of Breton heritage, a region in France. Direct heritage actually. Just as im sure Madonna appears in the Italian wikiporject due to her ItalianAmerican heritage, it should be up to th France wikiproject if he is included not us.

[edit] Arhuement over the term dictator

Regardless if the word dictator is a weasal word i think it merritt includsion that there is an ongoing debate in Chile between the left and the right as into whether Pinochet was a dictator or president with the right (UDI RN) and with the left (Concertacion, Communist Party, Humanist Party) particularly the right saying he was never dictator and saying he was a legitimate president and the left saying that in modern times only presidents that are directly elected in free elections are presidents in the modern sense and that pinochet was a dictator. that last part was said by the head of the socialist party in an interview with TVChile.

I agree, in fact that's a perfect summary of my solution to the earlier debate. Rather than labelling him an unquestioned 'dictator', he should be described as 'President of the Military Junta', and it should also be said that there is a debate between his supporters and opponents over whether or not he was a dictator. As you say, sources can be provided for both sides. Walton monarchist89 12:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dictatorship

I think that the word "dictatorship" is very lacking in this article, i means who's ever heard of a coup d'etat that led to military rule which is not considered a "dictatorship" someone, a student for example may type in "Chilean Dictatorship" or "Pinochet Dictatorship" , the notable period where no presidents where elected nor did the congress convened between 1979 and 1990 when before 1979 and after 1990 things where handled much differantly, might be confused.

Well, if you have trouble finding examples, try reading about the Government Junta of Chile (1925), it may enlighten you. Mel Romero 02:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] President

Use of the word president should be removed from the first sentance, since Pinochet was a very differant president from Allende and his predicessors and Aylwin and his successors, before and after his rule presidents where elected in direct free elections Pinochet was not, in this way the article may wrongly imply to readers that Allende or OHiggens or Bachelet or Aylwin had the same kind of administration. Allende was a directly elected president, so was Aylwin, Pinochet was not and the differance should be codified in this article, especially in the uninformative opening. President is not enough, self-proclaimed president is better but needs elaboration, this article doesnt read well.

Pinochet was a Chilean general who seized power from Democratically elected Salvador Allende in 1979 in a US-backed military coup detat and was elected President of the Military Junta of Chile and estableshed himself as president after a plebicite in 1986 which is regarded as undemocratic, his regime is widely critized for human rights violations and is described as brutal by the media. In 1990 a second plebicite failed to extend his leadership into 1998 and fresh elecetons where held whom installed Patricio Aylwin with what is known in Chile as, "the return to democracy"

Okay hows that for a new introduction? Any comments? Corrections? Feedback?qrc2006/email 02:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

He was president of Chile and therefore this information must not be deleted. Comparing him to Allenede is completely irrelevant to this. Your introm is highly anti Pinochet and we cannot have that here because of WP:NPOV and just fairness and not taking sides, SqueakBox 02:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

he was not president of chile, he was president of a military junta after a coup d'etat and dont you forget it. I didnt compare him to allende, i compared him to his predicessor AND succesor, it doesnt matter who they were, but that they came to power much differantly. im not taking a side. what side? the only side im on is that of making this a better article, which says the truth, the whole truth, the verifiable truth, and where ALL points of view are included. and it is not irrelevant sir.

I agree with SqueakBox. The proposed intro also violates WP:WEASEL in using phrases such as "is regarded as undemocratic" (by who exactly?). Walton monarchist89 12:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Who exactly? hmm, the United Nations, the people of chile. the wording can be changed to "Widescale fraud was alleged" by no means were they widely welcomed as free elections. helf finding sources?

This is an incredible discussion. I wonder why people like QRC2006 try so hard to pass myths as history. Let's see, where to start? From previous contributions to this discussion I can see that by "democratically elected" there seems to be a consensus that an election must have taken place in some form for the elected person to be regarded as "validly elected". If so, the majority of the Presidents (or Supreme Directors) that ruled Chile before 1830 would not qualify (including O'Higgins, who was never elected by the way). Now, if by "election" we want to understand a "fair and free and representative" election, then none of the heads of state of Chile before 1920 would qualify, since study after study has proven that the buying and selling of votes and governmental intervention was the norm in those times, while more than 2 thirds of the population was simply disenfranchised (something not at all unusual in most of the world at the time either.) More to the point, if the election of 1980 was "regarded as undemocratic" (not by the UN, and definitely not by the people of Chile as a whole) then all the results from that vote would be spurious, and hence all subsequent actions stemming from that vote, totally void and null. Right? well, if we were to follow that argument that you seem to propound, then neither Aylwin nor any of the successors (including Bachelet) would be legal, since they are the legal defenders of the 1980 Constitution, and the 1980 election is the one that approved that constitution (still in place by the way), and Pinochet's election was just one of the "transitory articles" included in the text. Well, we could follow on and on... but I think you get my point. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, and that's definitely what you're trying to do with the recent Chilean history by swallowing whole all the anti-Pinochet propaganda. The man was no saint, but this is suppposed to be a balanced account of his actions, not political POVs. Mel Romero 02:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Mel Romero, who has expressed my point much more clearly than I could have done. Fundamentally, it's not the job of Wikipedia to make a judgement as to how "good" Pinochet was, or whether or not he was a "dictator" - both of these are subjective judgements which violate WP:NPOV. Walton monarchist89 13:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

how is citing the overwealimg body of mass media who all call him dictator a NPOV issue. also the very definition of the word. and the fact that he came to power very differantly from his predecessor and successor who were both elected by popular vote. he was not, that election by popular vote is the method of gaining the presidency of chile in modern times.

It is technically correct to include both president and dictator in the intro. (JoeCarson 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Removed links

If you find any of the following links necessary please discuss them here before readding them to the article. Please see WP:EL and WP:MOS-L. Also please remember that many of them are duplicates, some of them are in refs already (or should be in refs or nowhere) and one of them isn't link at all.:)--Pethr 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• TRAIL: Augusto Pinochet Ugarte
• Official Government Biography
• Pinochet's Chile (Washington Post)
• Augusto Pinochet Ugarte Foundation (Spanish)
• Pinochet Real – For Supporters of General Pinochet (Spanish)
• "The crimes of Augusto Pinochet" (History of the Human Rights abuses of the Military Dictatorship)
• Spartacus Educational Biography
• Timeline of Pinochet Prosecution (Amnesty International)
• Article: "Doubts Remain over Pinochet's Fate: Chile's 'antiquated penal code' could be his undoing"
• Reconcile Chile
• Valech report on political imprisonment and torture, November 2004 (Spanish)
• BBC News report: "Banks accused over Pinochet cash"
• Remember Chile Begins
• George Washington University article
• Pinochet and Me by Allende's US translator Marc Cooper, ISBN 1-85984-360-3
• "Killer File" entry on Pinochet includes timeline and links
• Genealogy of Augusto Pinochet
• Guardian Obituary
• The Pinochet Precedent by Transnational Institute
• Pinochet - Dead, Never Convicted Reports and features by the news agency Inter Press Service
• Augusto Pinochet: Obituary. The Economist (2006-12-13). Retrieved on January 9, 2007.
• Augusto Pinochet: The Passing of a Tyrant. The Economist (2006-12-13). Retrieved on January 9, 2007. “No ifs or buts. Whatever the general did for the economy, he was a bad man.”
• Londregan, John (2006-12-25). Don't Cry for Pinochet: Chile Succeeded Despite Him. New Weekly Standard. Retrieved on January 9, 2007. “We should not make the mistake of giving Pinochet credit for the economic achievements of millions of hard-working and enterprising Chileans, nor for the policies that got out of their way.”
• Christopher, John (2006-12-11). Augusto Pinochet, 1915–2006: Farewell to the Perpetrator of One of the Most Shocking Crimes of the 20th Century. Slate. Retrieved on January 9, 2007.

[edit] Introduction

The current opening sentence reads like this:

'Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte^[4] (November 25, 1915-December 10, 2006) was a general and President of Chile. Pinochet led a military junta to power in 1973, through a coup d'état, deposing the democratically-elected Socialist President Salvador Allende and establishing a military government. In 1974, Pinochet appointed himself President and remained in power until 1990.^[5][6]

Stating that Chile was under siege by communist subversives, Pinochet implemented a series of security operations, with support from the United States and other South American military governments, in which (according to the Rettig Report) around 3,000 suspected or known dissidents and leftists were killed, and (according to the Valech Report) around 30,000 more were tortured.^[7][8] He later implemented economic reforms which his supporters credit with the development of the robust modern Chilean economy and his opponents identify with large increases in unemployment, poverty and decline in real wages, with little effect on longterm economic performance.^[9][10][11]

At the time of his death in 2006, around 300 criminal charges in Chile were still pending against Pinochet for human rights abuses and embezzlement during his rule.^[12] Pinochet remains a polarizing figure in many parts of the world, dividing people who condemn him for human rights abuses and for taking power from a democratically elected government, from those who credit him with stabilizing Chile and preventing a Communist takeover.^[13][14]

Undoubtedly this needs to be cleaned up, to eliminate all POVs and falsehoods. I would like to point out just the most blatant ones to pave the way to a common ground:

a) Pinochet led a military junta to power in 1973, through a coup d'état. All credible sources agree that Pinochet (notwithstanding his own memoirs) was not a leader of the coup. If there were any real leaders, they were Admiral Merino and General Leigh. He was just forced to join the conspiracy two days before it happened, under threat of being superseded and pushed aside.

b) In 1974, Pinochet appointed himself President. That is not so. He was appointed by the Military Junta as a whole, under a joint decree. True, he participated of the junta, and true he may have forced the issue, but from that to appointing himself, there's a long way.

c) Stating that Chile was under siege by communist subversives, Pinochet implemented a series of security operations, with support from the United States and other South American military governments, in which (according to the Rettig Report) around 3,000 suspected or known dissidents and leftists were killed, and (according to the Valech Report) around 30,000 more were tortured. This definitely needs to be rewriten. It is mixing the events of the Condor Plan (supported by the US) with the internal crack-down on leftists within Chile (who was home-brew). This is disinformation at its best.

d) He later implemented economic reforms which his supporters credit with the development of the robust modern Chilean economy and his opponents identify with large increases in unemployment, poverty and decline in real wages, with little effect on longterm economic performance. Again, the man was no saint, but the supporters and opponents points of view on a technical matter is really irrelevant. What it should point out is the point of view of the international economic studies (of a technical nature) on the topic. On those studies, the consensus is that the present Chilean Economy is a direct result of the measures implemented during his tenure, and that overall, his economic management was sound. Mel Romero 02:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd encourage you to go on and write some draft here on the talk page of a) and b). However I think that c) and d) is sourced pretty well - Condor Plan was implemented in the Chile with some int. involvement and economic success is disputed. Please remember that you need good sources, otherwise others won't approve intro change.--Pethr 02:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

To User: Pethr. I think you missed the correction that I was trying to make in relation with point 3 (it was badly written anyway, so no surprise there.) I am NOT saying that there were no killings or tortures during the military government, or that the same happened under the Condor plan. What I am saying is that (at least for Chile) the figures indicated in the text are representative of the internal represion of leftist parties by the military, NOT to be confused with the people who suffered under Condor Plan, who in Chile were in the range of maybe 500. There is a need to be precise and separate both figures, because while Condor plan most certainly (though not conclusively) was supported by the US, the internal repression may have been condoned but was not supported. You may think this a moot point, but the objectives of both repressions were quite different. Condor plan was primarily an effort to stop leftist parties for undermining the status quo in Latin America, while Chile's internal repression was aimed at securing the military government AND expunging leftist ideologies from the country. One point that most everyone who handles this article seems willing to highlight is probably the single most controversial one: whether there was or not US support for the 1973 coup. As someone pointed out before, there's abundant information on how the US tried to bring down Allende and failed, but not a single document has emerged so far to even indicate that the 1973 coup had US (or foreign) support prior to its happening. That is why these differences must be kept in sight. On the economy I am sorry to be totally in disagreement with you. The only ones who dispute the economic success do so on political terms and not on technical ones. The best proof is that after 18 years of democratic governments (former opposition to Pinochet) his economic model continues to function virtually intact. Mel Romero 05:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Mel for elaborating more on this. As far as I know, internal crack down on leftish activists etc. was indeed part of Operation Condor. I've never read anything drawing line between those two. Condor was plan that was executed in some Latin American countries sometimes with international cooperation involved. This needs to be sourced well. I think that cited reports somewhat support my view but I don't want to study that right now. U.S. involvement is different matter. There is great doubt about U.S. involvement in the coup and this information has been repeatedly removed from article because of this. On the other hand there is evidence that U.S. contributed at least technically to the OC. There was also onetime payment to the Chilean chief of inteligence service which was downplayed as mistake and there are other things like Kissinger's (DOS/WH) approval of OC while slightly warning about human rights abuses at the same time. I agree that the U.S. role is sometimes exagerated but not in this case. The U.S. are implicated only when they should be. I don't know much about Chilean economic policy but please be careful with this. Generally I agree with you but there is a little more to all of it.--Pethr 22:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I entirely agree with Mel Romero's points. This article is on a very controversial topic, and he should try to keep the introduction as POV-free and factual as possible. I propose the following:

Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (25 November 1915–10 December 2006) was a general and President of Chile.

In 1973, Pinochet particioated in a coup d'état that deposed the democratically-elected Socialist President Salvador Allende and established a military junta. In 1974, the junta appointed Pinochet president by a joint decree. He remained in power until 1990.

Stating that Chile was under siege by communist subversives, Pinochet implemented a series of security operations in which (according to the Rettig Report) around 3,000 suspected or known dissidents and leftists were killed, and (according to the Valech Report) around 30,000 more were tortured. He later implemented economic reforms which are credited with the recovery from the hyperinflation which came during Allende's presidency and the development of the robust modern Chilean economy, although this is disputed by his opponents.

At the time of his death in 2006, around 300 criminal charges in Chile were still pending against Pinochet for alleged human rights abuses and embezzlement during his rule. Pinochet remains a polarizing figure in many parts of the world, dividing people who condemn him for human rights abuses and for taking power from a democratically elected government, from those who credit him with stabilizing Chile and preventing a Communist takeover.

Alright, now 5 questions:

1-why does it justify Pinochet in every bad action? (or reports such as Valech or Rettig recieve the bias treatment: "according to...", almost questionning the reports, when no one in Chile has ever dared questioning any of them seriously).

2-why are bad actions minimized to basic footnotes? (the rigg bank scandal, for example).

3-why is the united states not mentioned?, they provided much aid through the CIA.

4-what is this myth about the "communist takeover", the cold ended more than a decade ago, there is huge evidence that clearly shows that Allende at no point of his goverment ever planned any take over, with "Plan Z" now widely being regarded as a forgery (the document itself is just one page long).

5-pinochet was president?, its nice to see wikipedia siding with every pinochet supporter out there (nazis included), when it was all too clear that although the constitution he created, for the elections he rigged, sayd "president", he was a dictator.

The answer of course its as simple as that the article is not NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.215.168.240 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Au contraire. What you are trying to do is give this article a pro-Allende and anti-Pinochet bias. The article is very neutral as it is. I will answer your objections one by one:

1. The only way to be NPOV is to write "according to" when we refer to any source, including the Valech and Rettig reports. It is a flat-out lie that nobody has questions the report, I can name more than a few people of the top of my head (of course, you'll dismiss them as crazy Nazi pinochetists). That people think the Valech and Rettig reports are not the complete truth means Wikipedia must, because of its NPOV policy, add "according to" when refering to the reports.

2. What you call "bad actions" are not minimized; there is ample coverage of the financial scandals and allegations throughout the article, including the introduction. Overexpanding on these "bad actions" is giving the article an anti-Pinochet bias.

3. The United States is mentioned extensively, even more so in the individual articles on the coup. What you are trying to do again is to give the article your own bias against Pinochet. I must point out the coup would've occured with or without CIA complicity given the widespread anger against Allende's policies.

4. The "myth" about the communist takeover is a legitimate point of view that many Chileans adhere to, including myself. Given the terrorist acts of far left groups such as the MIR, the declarations of the Socialist Party conventions which called for an armed struggle, the support by Castro for a takeover, the supprot by many left-wingers for a coup is good proof to me. One of the most important Chilean historians today, Gonzalo Vial, has compared the text of Plan Z (which is not one page long at all, more like 10 pages) to be most likely authentic, given that its strategies are very similar to the plans for a takeover by the Socialist Party, the MAPU, and the MIR.

5. Yes, Pinochet was a Chilean president whether you like it or not. The current government recognizes him as such, as we will go down in history as such. Wikipedia MUST be NPOV, so if we call Fidel Castro president we must call Pinochet president. Castro has never been democratically elected either. There is also no proof whatsoever that the 1980 plebiscite was rigged except for "nobody could support a dictator like Pinochet, he couldn't possibly have won, so it must be rigged". The polling agency CEP took surveys in the late 1980's where people were asked how they had voted in the 1980 plebiscite. The majority said they voted for the "Yes" option, and the survey results were very close to the official results of the plebiscite. Marmaduque 19:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Policy

It's bad style to continue writing Chicago Boys when the government, Pinochet, etc. could also be used. Also, the language of this section was heavily biased against Pinochet and misleading. We should avoid POV terms and phrases like "devastated" and "horrible economic policy" for example. Also, economic indicators and benchmarks mean nothing out of context. Understanding the economy of Chile before Pinochet is a prerequisite for understanding it under Pinochet. (JoeCarson 13:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC))

This is especially true, because of the ongoing controversy over the propriety of Pinochet's CIA-backed coup rests to a great degree on the economic performance of Allende's socialism vs. Pinochet's reforms. Cuba's health system is a similar benchmark, with fans and foes making contradictory claims. (See Healthcare in Cuba). --Uncle Ed 11:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV introduction?

In reading the introduction, I get the feeling that this article is very POV. Phrases like "saving Chile from the hands of international communism" and "communist subversives" could be considered subversive. I get the feeling that these are perhaps quotes and should be indicated as such. Due to the activity around this article, I have not added the {{NPOV}} tag. Should someone?

128.42.157.209 04:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, that part of the intro sounds POV. We could just qualify it with, "Pinochet and his supporters believed Chile was under siege..."

(JoeCarson 14:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC))

In case you guys didn't notice someone rewrote the entire article in a specifically POV way. I've reverted it. - DNewhall 21:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I did not notice that. Thanks for pointing it out.—69.61.172.149 22:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC) (same as 128.42.157.209)

[edit] Neo-Nazi

Why wasn't this article included in the category of neo-Nazis? I read in the book "Is fascism dead of alive?" that Pinochet explicitly praised Hitler and Mein Kampf and other neo-fascist leaders like Le Pen are also fans of Pinochet.

He may have expressed praise for Hitler (I've never heard that) but his policies were quite different from the Nazis and other fascist groups.JoeCarson 14:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pinochet's Legacy

Not much credit is given to Pinochet on the economic level. The Economist which is no friend of Pinochet's has said that he was a brutal dictator but that many of his policies helped Chile's economy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.3.115.36 (talk • contribs).

Opinion on Pinochet's economic policies is split. Many think that he helped the Chilean economy by making it business-friendly and efficient but many others think he hurt it by helping widen the divide between rich and poor and causing unemployment. - DNewhall 04:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)