Talk:Auckland Grammar School

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"Only students in lower streams are permitted to attempt NCEA" This is incorrect. All students may, if they so decide, attempt NCEA, however it is not recommended, and students are told if they can pass in CIE they will be better off with those qualifications (This is quite probably true). Unless somebody disagrees I'm going to change it to something along the lines of what I explained here. --vierstein^talk08:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

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Because I'm not sure what it means (and it isn't explained) I removed the second sentence of this article, namely: It, along with Nelson College, Wellington College, Christchurch Boy's High School and others use different terminology from other state schools due to historical reasons. Can easily be replaced if someone shows exactly what different terminology it uses. Moriori 03:26, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

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To some Aucklanders, AGS has to reputation of spending more time and money onto sports than academics and thus its attendees are stereotypical seen as good at sport but less bright. This does not seem necessary as that would be a minority viewpoint. Indeed the school is far more widely reveered for its academic achievements. --vierstein 14:19, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

While it's true that AGS does spend a lot of money in the sporting arena, it also tends to excell academically, and indeed ranks boys on their academic placing within the school. This is part of the reason they offer the Cambridge exam system rather than the NCEA curriculum: NCEA doesn't qualify the results beyond a broad 'achieved', 'merit', 'excellent'.

Grammar boys may not be perceived as particularly suave or refined, but with classes ranked from A (who are academically excellent boys working above their form level) to (in some years) P, to suggest that they are 'good at sport but academically less bright' is disingenuous: those who are good at sport can be less academic than their peers, but this is a trend in most high schools; Grammar is no exception. --(unsigned contribution by Luckycat 18:47, 29 May 2005)

>so you agree? I will edit out the offending sentence. --vierstein 08:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV-ish

I've had a (relatively brutal) go at cleaning this article. Firstly, from reading the prior version, it was unclear that AGS was actually a state school, and while being old and having more traditions, funded on the same basis as any other less prestigious school. This impression was further bolstered by mentioning it along with Christs and Collegiate (both private, both originally affiliated with Universities) in addition to schools which do have similar history, such as Nelson & Wellington Colleges. Thus, the reference to UK public schooling didn't ring true.

The overtly political aspect also seemed unbalanced. I may have slightly unbalanced it in the reverse direction, but Auckland Grammar and (to an extent) similar schools in Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin, and Nelson) are some of the very few in state schools able to have some sort of selection element to their student population, enhancing their status. All of these old schools have (or have had) stunning heritage buildings, and in every case, have nastier recent additions. Any expanding school gets pre-fabs, it's not some political agenda. Limegreen 10:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tuition

Is there any tuition? It isn't clear whether its free or requires tuition.Kiwidude 03:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

It is a state school, so no there is no "tuition", because state schools are, by defintion, funded by the state. However, the voluntary "donation"/"activity fee" is around $600, at least five times the national average. So it is expensive to go there, but there's not tuitionLimegreen 03:52, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

60.234.202.46 (talk • contribs) amended the above statement to $750. I've reverted.-gadfium 05:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Secondary school students in Hong Kong from Form 4 onwards require school fees to attend, and the fees as set by government far exceeds NZ$350 (Forms 4 and 5 are around NZ$1,100 while Forms 6 and 7 would be at around NZ$1,800). In addition, textbooks must be purchased by each student on their own (unlike Grammar). As a perspective, education at Grammar could be said to be "bargain" across international levels.--JNZ 02:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

But then, any New Zealand state school would be a "bargain" by that logic. However, students from overseas have to pay international student fees, which would far exceed NZD1800, I suspect. The point is that Grammar's "donation" is absurdly high by New Zealand standards.--Limegreen 03:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] revisions

I've been going along adding infoboxes to NZ schools, and trying to tidy their pages up a bit. Mostly this means getting rid of vague and unsupported peacock terms - you have no idea how many leading prestigous shools NZ has which are famous for the academic successes of their students. I had a field day here. That's a pity as the facts speak for themselves. I also tried to clarify some of the details surrounding the operation of the enrollment scheme (although the school administers it, they have little or no choice in it), without removing the schools objections to it. Enjoy. Neil Leslie 11:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boarding school?

I removed the Boarding school category. While AGS has boarders (as do several other NZ schools, like Mt Albert Grammar) it is not predominantly or significantly composed of boarders (unlike, say, Ampleforth College, Gordonstoun, Mt. Edgecumbe High School, Sekolah Tuanku Abdul Rahman), hence I think it is misleading (especially to non-NZ readers) to list AGS as a boarding school. If you revert this please also add the other NZ schools which have boarding facilites to the boarding school category, and add an explanation to Boarding school.

[edit] Revisions of Bakugeki

I am a current Auckland Grammar School student, and have made the following revisions.

"It is a mixed day and boarding school for boys aged 13 (Year 9 or Form III) to 18 (Year 13 or Form VII)." becomes "It is a secondary school for boys, from Year 9 (still referred to as its previous name, Form 3) to Year 13 (Form 7). The school also has a limited number of boarders, who live in a building adjacent to the school."

"Grammar Boys [2], a sixty minute documentary about the school was shown on New Zealand television." I seriously question both the relevance and location of this sentence, especially considering the quality or lack of it which that show exibited.

• Irrespective of what you think of that documentary, it is worth mentioning. Neil Leslie 05:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

"(Auckland Girls, Mount Albert Grammar School, Takapuna)." Became (far more professional) "(Auckland Girls Grammar School, Mount Albert Grammar School, Takapuna Grammar School)."

"The main block of the School was built in 1916 in the "Spanish Mission" style and has "A"-grade historical protection. Inside is The Great Hall which is used for assemblies. The hall has an innovative design, with a vaulted ceiling covering the central "court" of the building." becomes "The main block of the School was built in 1916 in the "Spanish Mission" style and has "A"-grade historical protection. The main feature of this building is the hall, where assemblies are held on most ordinary school days. The hall has an innovative design, with a vaulted ceiling covering the central "court" of the building. There are 12 class rooms at ground level (A floor), 12 class rooms on the second level (B floor), 2 class rooms at either end of the hall on the third floor (C floor), and four class rooms beneath the hall (D floor). The offices of the headmaster and deputy headmasters are on the first floor, as well as the offices of the administration and secreterial staff. The staff room is on the second floor."

"The School is located on a 152,000 m² estate in central Auckland. The grounds feature a War Memorial, which is a large obelisk standing on a plinth commemorating the Old Boys of the school who fought in various Wars." becomes "The School is located on a 152,000 m² estate in central Auckland.

The at the very front of the school, there is a War Memorial, comprising a large obelisk standing on a plinth commemorating the Old Boys of the school who fought in various Wars. There is the main block (discussed below), a library and information centre, the Centennial Theatre (which is available for public use), a pool, a music block attached to the theatre, a science block, a specialist block, a multimedia theatre ("MMT", currently under repairs), a technology block that includes to computer labs with 40 computers in each, a gymnasium and weights room, a sports pavilion (due to be replaced in 2006), and the "O Block", a group of prefabricated class rooms that have become semipermanent. A stadium to replace the current gym is in construction currently, and a sand-based turf was recently completed."

In the "Scholars, and Rugby players" (which I renamed Scholars and Rugby Players (extraneous ",")), I added this: "The school celebrates and remembers its top scholars by recording there names on boards surrounding the main hall. Any student who meets a certain standard in their external examinations is placed on these boards. The standard is high, and is adjusted as examinations change. The conversion from the Bursary examinations to the Cambridge International Examinations was successful, and the first group of Cambridge scholars was recorded in 2005." I am on that scholars board, look for I. R. Dunning! Hoping to get on twice, of course :D

"Curent academic issues" was tidied up, based on information from the frontlines. For one thing, it didn't actually have any issues! Much better now I think. The stuff about NCEA vs CIE was poorly written as well. Everything I can think of I have put in, but I image I will be coming back to this one.

I am also going to work on that info box, and add many hyperlinks and images.

• I'm not sure what you mean "work on that info box" remeber that if you edit the template itself this will affect all pages that use the template, and so you are committed to editing every one of those too. Neil Leslie 05:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• * Put in a logo? --BakugekiNZ 07:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• * * If you have one (and it is GPL'ed) please add it. I havn't had time to locate and upload all the NZ school crests (I though I was doing pretty well to get most of the foundation dates!). It would be great if you could add one as it would improve the page a lot. Cheers Neil Leslie 09:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

--BakugekiNZ 11:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

New: added link Sports complex link - http://www.ags.school.nz/community/development/commitment/sportcomplex.html

Thanks for adding all that material. I would ask you to consider whether you think that most of it is `encyclopedic' however. Some of it seems rather ephemeral, and some of only local interest. Neil Leslie 05:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

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Added sublevels to "Curent academic issues" plus some small corrections of syntax and grammar --BakugekiNZ 22:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The link to Mt Albert Grammar School goes to a Canadian school, not the Auckland one.

[edit] Recent Vandalism

Noted a surge of vandalism.

The names being employed are those of a group of boys in 7A whose names I recognise.

I have emailed the IT administrator at Grammar, who will hopefully be able to deal with these vandals. --BakugekiNZ 09:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new version

I've taken a look at the article and as it is at the moment it needs a major reorganisation. To that end I've gone through it and posted a proposed new version. My reasoning is outlined below.

Note: The following titles (Lead, Section 1, etc) refer to the new article.

Lead

• The Auckland College and Grammar School: Unless you can cite Grey's Royal Charter this will stay out. Having seen some other schools' RCs this is not unbelievable; but without a source this seems quite out-of-touch.
• Otherwise the lead (before the start of the section headers), which should be good as a stand-alone article, is all right.

Section 1 (Historical)

• The dating of Grey's deed to 1850 has been sourced and cited.
• One of the oldest: Probably true, but ideally this would need a cite, since comparisons to other schools by Wikipedia editors is original research.
• The motto: left alone, except for the word 'historic', which is unnecessary waffle.

Section 2 (Grounds)

• Metres squared to hectares.
• The decision was made to include only notable buildings. Prefabs and the Ministry of Education standard blocks are not by any standard worthy of inclusion.
• Information about facilities was cut. While I appreciate the fact that AGS has facilities not found at other state (let alone private) schools, minutiae about facilities probably does not belong in Wikipedia.
• Protection under Historic Places Act 1993: There is no 'A'-grade protection; there is only Cat. I and Cat. II.. Both the AGS and Historic Places Trust sources have been cited.

Section 3 (Zoning)

• This *is* a notable feature of the school, since issues about AGS zoning reach newspapers in other cities, and I've read a lot about AGS through the Dom.
• AGS preferring merit-based placements: I'm pretty sure this is true, but without a source it's been cut, since the original statment was conditional on the source webpage, which does not explicity state preference for merit-based placement (even if the general tone of that source indicates it).

-- Be careful about retaining the assertion that geographical zones mitigate against access from lower-socioeconomic groups. It seems like it would (and the school asserts this), but AFAIK one of the reasons that the current NZ zoning scheme was put in place was that the previous non-geographic scheme had a general trend of making the rich white schools richer and whiter. You'd need to dig into the NZ education research literature for full details. It is certainly the case that AGS argues that geographical zones mitigate against access from lower-socioeconomic groups. Neil Leslie 21:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the proposal to reflect that its the school's opinion. Mr Bluefin 22:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Section 4 (TV Show)

• It had its own TV show, enough said. Citation kept.

Section 5 (Academic etc)

• Entrance exams: Not strictly entrance exams but aptitude tests. Weasel words "Anecdotal evidence..." removed. Minutiae about subjects removed and class naming removed. Minutiae about exams wrt streaming mostly removed.
• Streaming: This bit needs citation. In the proposed article this has been removed. The temptation to include it with weasel terms ("There are some critics of the steaming system") has been avoided.
• GCE info notable feature because of the *well-publicised* adoption of A-levels. However, again, minutiae about which classes can do what has been cut.
• Scholarship: Kept, but needs citation.

Section 6 (Notable alumni etc)

• Info on honours boards removed, since almost every school has some similar system. The info on All Blacks etc seemed to be trophy cabinetting, though to AGS' credit they have a list of ABs (though I feel this should be removed). Info on Girdlers' Scholarships and Rhodes Scholarships cut since they have no cite.
• ABs: The official list gives only 50. This information if desired, should be cited. Cite code is provided:

<ref name="agsabs">{{cite web
| url = http://www.ags.school.nz/sport/rugby/blank_allblacks.html
| title = Grammar's All Blacks
| accessdate = 2006-07-02
| author = Auckland Grammar School
| year = ----
| work = Auckland Grammar School
| publisher = 
| pages = 
| language = English}}</ref>

• Cuts made, but you should compare the proposed list with what's there. Generally for a school of this scale some selectivity is appropriate. I've made this comment elsewhere---a smaller list of higher-prominence names is better than a large list of all and sundry, even if they have blue wikilinks. Since this particular school has the potential to attract international attention the list has been altered accordingly. Fortunately there is no shortage on the present list of internationally prominent alumni.
• Redlinked names removed.

So... I still don't get why notable people should not be included in the list of notable old boys just because you have selected 5 of the 'most notable' - have you seen some of the list such as List_of_notable_Old_Carthusians? I really think you're going over the top. 124.197.21.14 13:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

External links and references

• Mostly technical changes to do with Wiki markup; redundant (i.e. repeated) links removed.

Criticism of the proposed article is invited. I realise that this is a major trim. Mr Bluefin 00:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

If there's no objections between now and this time tomorrow, I'll upload the proposed version---its been almost 2 weeks since any comment has taken place on this. Mr Bluefin 09:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Uploaded. Mr Bluefin 09:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Really?

Ben Atiga is a famous old boy? Because he played a rugby test? Really! Moriori 22:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Streaming According to Subjects Chosen st Senior Level?

In Hong Kong and elsewhere in East and Southeast Asia, it has long been a tradition that once you enter senior school, you are stuck with choosing a pre-selected course of subjects depending on which academic stream you choose. If you are in the Science stream, in addition to cores like English and Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Computer Studies will be taken while those in the Arts stream must take History, Geography, Latin, and French or Economics in addition to the cores. Almost all schools do not allow students to pick the options choices subject by subject, which is Auckland Grammar's system of choosing options and the once already in place when I was there (early to mid 1990s). But I also noticed at that time there were descriptions of students classified under "Sciences and Mathematics" and "Languages and Commerce" for 6A and 7A which could have hinted some legacies of more rigid streaming systems in the earlier years. Does anyone know if Grammar had ever streamed subject choices a student takes along the lines of Hong Kong or Asian practices? --JNZ 12:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)