Talk:Atonality

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Removal date: 8 November 2006

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[edit] Webern

Schoenberg was the innovator of the system, but his student Webern then began applying the same rules to not only notes, but other aspects of music as well.

Is this really true? Which pieces by Webern serialise more than the pitches? --Camembert

Webern begins using rows starting with Concerto for 9 Instruments in 1934. Messaien begins parameterizing - not rows - dynamics in the 1940's. The term "serial" is Stockhausen's.

Impressive, User:Stirling Newberry.Hyacinth 01:18, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to press you on this, but what aspects other than pitch does Webern subject to serial procedures in the Concerto? --Camembert

Dynamics and register are the first to aspects that he begins to apply rows to. Concerto for 9 instruments has a "row" of tone colors and the Piano Variations have a row of dynamics.

Stirling Newberry

Can you tell me what source you're getting this from? I have to say, I think you are mistaken. What Webern sometimes does is associate certain pitches with certain dynamics and methods of articulation, so that every time you get a B flat, for example, it is forte and staccato. But this cannot really be said to be using serial procedures. However, I won't edit the article until I've have the chance to look at my old notes on this (I've studied the piano Variations quite closely) and some scores, just to be sure. --Camembert

I am not clear where we are in disagreement. I do not see where I said that Webern has serialized dynamics and tone colour separate from the pitch class row. If I have - please show me where.

Stirling Newberry

I see. I must have misunderstood. I'm glad we're in agreement. --Camembert

This article is beginning to actually look good.

Anyone care to take a crack at describing actual practice?

Stirling Newberry

[edit] Modernism template

I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pantonal redirects here?

Why does 'Pantonal' redirect to 'Atonal'.... they are not the same thing. 'Pantonal' needs its own article.

"Pantonal, pantonality. The free use of all twelve pitch classes, as distinct from their restricted use according to the principles of tonality; hence, synonymous with atonal, atonality." The Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music (2002) and Musicians by Don Michael Randel, ISBN 0674009789.
"pantonality, pantonal. Term preferred to 'atonality' or 'atonal' by Schoenberg and used by the music analyst Rudolph Reti with reference to 20th-century music that is tonal but where the key is constantly fluctuating or compromised (that of Bartok or Stravinsky, for instance)." The Penguin Companion to Classical Music (2005) by Paul Griffiths, ISBN 0140515593.
Reti's use would be called "nonfunctional tonality" or pandiatonic. I'll make pantonal a disambiguation page. Hyacinth 10:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I think this is much clearer. I was only familiar with the latter sense, so thanks also for filling me in on the former.

[edit] Positive Music Movement

I just removed a paragraph fromt the criticism section about hte Postive Music Group. There is a http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/movement.asp which may oppose atonal music and promote tonal music, but their website doesn't seem to mention either term. Hyacinth 12:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Contact them by mail, they will tell you about it if you don't understand their page's statements which are clearly directed against atonality.80.138.172.139 01:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I also forgot that they appear non-notable. Hyacinth 08:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I guess if they added to the discussion or if we had a list or discussion of groups against atonality their inclusion may be more appropriate. Hyacinth 09:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Undisputed is however, that they are the leading figures opposing atonality at the moment.80.138.158.108 16:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then I dispute that. I would argue that there are many composers and theorists far better known than the PMM. Hyacinth 10:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes of course, e.g. Ernest Ansermet. Haha.

[edit] Influences of Atonal Music?

I'm not an expert on the matter, but I would love to see a section devoted to the influence of this music. Philip Glass is mentioned as one influencee, in reference to his minimalist works, but there are other well known musicians and bands that do use this atonal technique heavily. I hate to use the term but "art-rock"/ minimalist bands such as Mogwai definitely embrace an atonal music style. Even acts like Archers of Loaf/ Eric Bachmann, and Pavement with Stephen Malkmus use the atonal method in just about all of their songs. Would just like to see what other people's thoughts are on the matter.

[edit] Please revise this

 "Not only does it not conform to the common practice of this particular
 period, but it is noticeably divorced from the acoustical underpinnings of
 music going back as far as the scale systems of ancient Greece."

I would consider it as an extension of the use of the acoustical base. That was the vision of Schoenberg and other composers.

That sentence was probably put in here by a well-known troll. I thought all of his POV statements here had been revised already. Oh well, I've made some updates. Feel free to make more, it's your right as an editor, you don't have to wait for anyone else to do it for you. CRCulver 23:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I don't think the definition is narrow enough: Atonality describes music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies, which characterizes the sound of classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. It looks like the modal music of earlier periods and non-western cultures is included in this definition, which it shouldn't be. Why not: Atonality describes music without tonal center or where all pitches are considered of equal importance.Apus 11:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Lectures about Atonality

What do people think about linking to this site? They are audio recordings of lectures given by a (late) Music professor from Antioch College, John Ronsheim. Ronsheim was a Dallapiccola student, set up the University of Iowa's 20th century music program and was a very dynamic/popular teacher at Antioch. I put the link on here and it was immediately taken off by user CRCulver as "spam". I don't agree. Friends and students of Prof Ronsheim started a not-for-profit after his death-- one of our aims is to promote the understanding of 20th century music. The lectures were prepared for non-music majors. They include many musical excerpts and could be very useful for those wanting to understand atonality who are new to it and/or don't read music. Pulpy 15:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've only made a very cursory examination of the site and listened to about 20 minutes of one of the lectures, but I have to agree that the "spam" lable seems unwarranted. From the little I have heard so far, however, I also find Prof. Ronsheim's lecturing style falls a bit short of "dynamic". Nevertheless, I can see that they might well be of interest to the motivated listener. --Jerome Kohl 16:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
WP's guidelines for external links prohibit editors from linking to sites they are in any way affiliated with. It is for that reason, and the editor's placing the site on multiple pages, that I have duly removed the links. The editor had already been warned before, too. CRCulver 21:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Mr. Culver that I did not know about "affiliaton" guideline. Yes I am "affiliated' wtih the site. So I guess I had already done what wiki recommends, ie "If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." So here it is and we'll see. Also, I do not find guidelines limiting the number of times a site can be listed. I would like to propose it to pages where it would be the most useful. The lectures are on the history 20th century european music until about 1970-- I had originally thought: 20th Century Classical Music, and then links to specific lectures for Atonality, Serialism and Dallapiccola as Prof Ronsheim was one of his closest pupils. So, in terms of music, not wikipedia rules, do people frequenting these topics think this is too much? If so, which would be most useful? Or are there other, better pages? Again my point of view is that these could be very helpful for people--especially non-music readers--in that they can hear the music described/explained as it is playing-- it's less theoretical. Pulpy 15:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You continue to pitch a site you are affiliated with, seeking to disseminate it as widely as possible. That's linkspam, regardless of whether you think you're trying to be helpful. If you want your page mentioned here, you must abandon the matter until the link is forgotten about and then wait for some unaffiliated person to randomly stumble upon your site and think to add it here. CRCulver 15:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr Culver, you are making up your own guidelines. I'm not sure why. I'm trying in a sincere way to follow those of Wikipedia. "[Avoid] a page that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important and difficult objective at Wikipedia. If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." I didn't know this and tried to put the links in first. Now I know, and am doing as recommended. This is a place for discussion and not your bossing around and unilateral decision making. (Several people on your page have complained about this with you) The wikipedia project will not be compromised if people discuss this possible link as permitted under the wiki guidelines!! I'm sure that "linkspam" is a problem and many thanks to those who delete them. Harassment is also a problem. You've said your piece-- don't threaten to ban people from participating, just because they don't do things exactly like you want!

I've been rooting out linkspam for three years now, and have succesfully reported many people for linkspam bans based on just as little as you are doing now. Furthermore, by placing a link to the page here on the Talk page "for discussion", you would still be drawing traffic to the site, and as this is a favourite tactic of linkspammers, it gets the same penalty usually. If you were really sincere about not being a linkspammer, you would have given up already. CRCulver 16:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I should add that no one will stop you from adding content to the article body based on those lectures. That would be admirable, and it would make Atonality more informative on its own. External links are intended for very rare cases when information cannot be integrated into the article, and that is not the case here. CRCulver 16:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for "criticism of atonal music"

I found an interview with Glass here where he talks about his criticisms of the avant garde of the 60s: [1]

EM: You've often talked about your music being a reaction to the academic music and the serial, atonal music that was going on up until that point; I would say you were composing more modern orchestral music. Of all the reactions you could have had to that style, why this particular one?
PG: In 1964, '65, and '66, I certainly looked at the older generations of composers as people that were my enemies. I had to displace them. Everything they did was wrong, almost anything I could do would be right as long as it wasn't that. It was a very emphatic point of view that I had, and for a young man beginning in a highly competitive business as is composition, the music world, writing serious or concert music, it was a psychological boost to have an attitude like that, which was crucial. After all, there were some pretty heavy guys around at that time. Stockhausen, Boulez, Berio and Carter, they're still around and still important, but at that time they seemed like they would be there forever and they were going to run things as long as they wanted to.
Well, it turned out not to be that way, and it's not necessary for me to denounce them as strongly as I did then. I'm not saying that I didn't believe that at the time. I did. From time to time I will resurrect that attitude in all its strength and glory when necessary.
But I think you have to look at what it must have been like. Here I was 26, 27, and there were these guys who had the music world sewn up. And the only thing we could do, I mean we as a younger generation, was to blow them out of the water one way or the other. We just denounced them and got on with our own work. It turns out now, 20 years later, that there seems to be room for everybody. In fact, we seem to have more room than they do which I don't mind at all.

I know I've seen other older interviews where he says more direct things, but I'd have to dig around... and I think this one addresses the issue nicely. I can probably find similar things for Reich and Adams shortly (Adams' sardonic use of sprechstimme in The Death of Klinghoffer springs readily to mind).

As for the statement: The advent of eclecticism, particularly reflecting the absorption of world music and other so-called "popular" styles, continue to be at variance with anaytical and emotionally sterile mannerist approaches to art music. I don't think it's worthwhile unless it's actually an attributable quote, but to me it just sounds like POV. - Rainwarrior 20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

When I added that call for a source, I expected to find one for Glass, but I didn't have my copy of Music by Philip Glass by Philip Glass handy. The sentence may need to be recast, however, since this reference covers Glass only. He has been very outspoken about this, whereas Reich and Adams have been more circumspect (and I don't see how the use of Sprechstimme in Klinghoffer can be read as "sardonic", let alone as a criticism of American academic composers). The "advent of eclecticism" addition seems to me to have any number of problems in addition to being likely unatributable. For one thing, eclecticism has been around for centuries. For another, the placement of the sentence is ambiguous--does "emotionally sterile mannerist approaches" describe minimalism? (And, of course, mannerism is being misused here.)--Jerome Kohl 20:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure about Reich actually, after thinking about it (I don't think I've actually read much of his writings / interviews / etc). It's possible that whomever wrote that passage simply lumped him in because his music is so similar? (Pay no heed to the Klinghoffer reference, that's just me rambling.) - Rainwarrior 20:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
But yeah, I do think the sentence as it is seems too narrowly worded to be accurate. - Rainwarrior 21:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

From an interview on John Adams' website: [2]

Popular music, for better or worse, continues to provide that essential expressive experience, what Jung called the anima experience, the fundamentally emotional essence of human communication. "Serious" contemporary music seems to have largely abdicated this power to affect people on this deepest of levels. That's why composers spend so much time verbally explaining what they have done or have tried to do.
The composers who marginalised themselves were the ones who developed musical languages that were largely inaccessible to even a relatively sophisticated listener. We're talking about an epoch of 'contemporary music', 'difficult music', which I'm beginning to think will be seen historically as a period with a beginning and an end. A period that began essentially with Schoenberg and petered out during the 1970s and 1980s.

- Rainwarrior 20:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, good quote, but notice that he avoids pointing a finger directly at anybody except Schoenberg. Unless, of course, he means everybody from Schoenberg onward, which seems unlikely. As for Reich, I think there may well be a quotation lurking out there somewhere (probably in "Music as a Gradual Process") about the Academy. I remember reading somewhere Reich explaining why he worked as a cab driver all those years, and ISTR he particularly wanted to avoid the academic milieu. Whether that is the same thing as rejecting academic composers is another thing, of course.--Jerome Kohl 23:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, we should probably delete the second part (about eclecticism), and revise the first (about the Glass/Adams/Reich "reaction"). I didn't write either part, but I figured there's probably enough quotes around to support the first, more or less. - Rainwarrior 00:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


Agreed. - Jerome Kohl 01:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laymen's terms?

I feel that the purpose of any Wiki entry is to inform anyone seeking interest in the subject. The problem this creates is that terms that may not be commonly used in mainstream vernacular, such as "atonal," don't garner making the article "laymen friendly." As someone who is very interested in music but knows very little about its theory or structure, I had a very difficult time discerning just what atonal refers to. Should the article be rewritten, at least in part, so that the average music listener could understand the meaning, or should it remain in its current form, filled with jargon relevant to music theorisits?

One of the difficulties for those of us who are trained as music theorists is that we don't always realize when we are using technical terminology that may be unfamiliar to nonspecialists. It must also be said that sometimes there are technical terms for which there is no substitute. However, these terms should either be plainly defined in the article, or a link should be provided to an article that does define them. It might be helpful to us, therefore, if you would point out some of the terms that you find opaque. If, as you seem to be saying, the term "atonal" itself is one of these, and the article does not succeed in explaining it, then this is certainly an indictment of the article as it stands.--Jerome Kohl 01:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I think the main problem here is the lead. The article starts off with "Atonality describes music not conforming to the system of tonal hierarchies". If you understand the term "tonal hierarchies" you probably also have a grasp of what atonality is. While I think this is an appropriate statement (and belongs in the lead section), we should begin with a statement that is less dependent on acquired terminology. I'm not sure how "layman" we can get this, but if we started off maybe with a reference to a "tonal centre" or even just "key" it might be a little more readable (if less rigourous). I think the term "key", at least, is widely understood. Maybe:
"Atonality describes music that does not use a tonal centre, or key. It is a term that applies to music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies, which characterizes the sound of classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries."
I think we could do better than this, but I'll make this change for the moment. - Rainwarrior 17:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Samples?

Partly related to the discussion above; "a sample song may be worth a thousand words". I think the best way to tell a "layman" what atonality is to provide examples, thus avoiding a more or less technical discussion. Also, is the caprice by Paul Sprimont a proper example of atonal music? (I'm really asking) Ozkaplan 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that piece is actually atonal. The harmony is fairly well defined, even if it isn't the harmony of western tonality, it's far from "atonal". Furthermore it returns several times to the same key. It just seems like linkspam to me, really. As for an appropriate example, well, there's not a whole lot of media of this lying around on Wikipedia... there's a midi at Sechs Kleine Klavierstücke, which is mostly atonal, but not entirely. There are a lot of atonal works out there, but a lot of them are still under copyright, but more than that atonality doesn't have quite the fanbase that regular classical music has. It might be difficult to track down decent free media of it. - Rainwarrior 04:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Atonality is really not a well defined concept isn't it? It's deviating from tonality in some way but the way how is open to debate (roughly :).. correct me where needed) 85.99.161.82 18:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
There are several possible meanings for atonal, which can be confusing, but each of them I think is fairly well defined in theoretical writing. The major ones might be close to "without the harmony of tonality" (sometimes this refers to the interval makeup of the chords, sometimes this refers to the chord function), and "without a tonal centre" (a return to some focal-pitch). In some cases the world "atonal" is used to indicate a work that lacks tonality but is also not dodecaphonic. The only meaning that doesn't have a real definition is the colloquial "stuff that sounds bad". - Rainwarrior 19:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
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