Talk:Athanasius of Alexandria
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[edit] Broken Picture
At least to me, the picture on this page does not appear. Does someone have the know how to fix this? Thanks Andy 05:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism of Athanasius
To maintain NPOV, sources should probably be added to counterbalance strong claims currrently being made in the criticisms section. An argument "built up and perpetuated" by violence? If you read On the Incarnation which predates the Arian controversy, it seems to be an argument that could stand on its own merits. I don't know enough to evaluate such claims, so I'll leave them stand, but I'm going to check into it. Evan Donovan 07:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I think you may have misread the sentence:
- In Alexandria, he assembled an 'ecclesiastical mafia' that could instigate a riot in the city if needed. It was an arrangement 'built up and perpetuated by violence.'
- The arrangement that was built up and perpetuated by violence was his power base in the city. However, to be clear I am claiming that he used violence and force to stamp out Arianism. Feel free to check to the two scholarly sources I cite. I feel that these additions are an attempt to begin to balance out the rest of the article that makes him out to be a saint. ;-) mennonot 00:11, 4 November 2005
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- Would you be amenable to noting that the murder charge mentioned "didn't stick" because his supposed victim showed up at the trial? That section seems to contain a lot of innuendo. Also, I was under the impression that at least some of the riots were caused by out of town monks that entered Alexandria, rather than any kind of established organization within the city. Did the sources you mention connect Athanasius with either Just War theory or the Inquisition? Wesley 05:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm happy to have any additional facts added if you have sources for them as I'm interested in reading more about this aspect of Athanasius. I don't see the current criticisms as innuendo, because it doesn't infer anything or work obliquely, it directly states that he used violence to try to stamp out those he didn't agree with theologically. Innuendo would be to say, for example, that his opponents "mysteriously disappeared."
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- The sources I read didn't connect Athanasius with the Just War theory or the inquisition, but they were historical sources, not theological or philosophical ones. I'll be glad to do some more research to place Athanasius into the broader development of the just war theory and other theories and practices of violence if that would be helpful. mennonot 09:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
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- If the sources available don't connect him with the just war theory or inquisition, that bit seems like a bit of original research, so I'll remove it. I'll see whether I can find a source about his supposed murder victim showing up at trial. Wesley 22:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I am pleased with the current approach taken by the Criticism section. It's balanced, and both sides have cites to back them up. I wish I knew more about the argument so I could judge it myself, but unfortunately, all I know is what I learned about Athanasius in college. Evan Donovan 21:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism Part II
Hey Mennonot I was wanting to get the specific pasages from Eusebius biblo] As why is this not same line of reasoning that Timothy Barnes took when he wrote Athanasius and Constantius? LoveMonkey 16:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nag Hammadi texts
I think the reference to the Nag Hammadi texts is incorrect and should be changed.
If you study the history of the Christian canon, it is clear that by the 4th century the only books still in dispute were "minor" books such as 2 and 3 John, Revelation, Esther, the books now in the Catholic OT, etc. There was no dispute about which Gospels were canonical, and this had been undisputed since at least the mid-2nd century.
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- In the wake of Irenaeus's Adversus haeresis, (ca 185): at the beginning of the 3rd century would be more accurate...
There is absolutely no evidence that any religious groups in the 3rd and 4th century used a collection of holy books which included parts of the NT and also Gnostic texts. Whoever used the Nag Hammadi texts as scripture were not part of the catholic Christian church, and therefore any letter by a bishop of that Church would have had no bearing on them.
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- Quite mainstream communities were reading in churches the Shepherd of Hermas, the Diatesseron, Didache the Apocalypse of Peter in the 3rd and 4th century...
Exactly my point. Athanasius' decree was sent out to his followers, who were "mainstream" Christians. It is conceivable that as a result of his decree, they discarded copies of Shepherd, Didache, etc. None of these books were found at Nag Hammadi. Therefore whoever hid the Nag Hammadi cache was not a mainstream Christian group and did not recognize the authority of Athanasius. Lawrence King 05:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Athanasius' list ruled out orthodox non-canonical books such as the Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, the Didache, and the OT books which Protestants call "Apocrypha". None of these were included in the Nag Hammadi cache.
Therefore Athanasius' canon had no bearing on the Nag Hammadi history. Lawrence King 00:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
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- Quite to the contrary, these were the very books that were hidden away. Wetman 04:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Not true. None of these books (Shepherd, Didache, Esther, Judith) were found at Nag Hammadi. Here is the complete list of Nag Hammadi texts. Lawrence King 05:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- I'm doing research on Athanasius for a church history project at the moment, and I'd agree it does seem a little strange. In fact the remnant of the XXXIX festal letter written by Athanasius in 367 (available on http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-93.htm#P9700_3475833) makes no mention of 'rendering up' any books. Athanasius writes that some books are frauds; others are useful to read but not among those books he considers "fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness." I can't find any reliable website or material that does say he demanded that his province hand over their books.
- 222.152.206.89
Okay, I am removing the sentence.
Your edit changing it to NPOV rendered the text as follows:
- In a portion of the letter lost from historical records (only a fragment of the letter remains), it is theorized he required the monasteries of Egypt to render up all books in their libraries that were not on his approved list.
This was definitely NPOV, but it illustrated that this theory has no actual evidence in its favor.
Athanasius' His letter (available at the link you gave above, and also at http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806.htm -- search for "XXXIX") says nothing about burning or destroying books. Could there have been a lost portion that said this? I don't see how. Consider: His list excluded the books sometimes called apocrypha or deuterocanonicals, and it also excluded Esther. It is absolutely certain that Egyptian Christians continued to use the book of Esther as well as the deuterocanonicals after Athanasius. Therefore no such decree was made. Lawrence King 09:35, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
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- Lest the casual reader of Wikipedia be led astray by this confident chat, the external link mentioned— http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806.htm —is the website that offers the Catholic Encyclopedia and expurgated patristic writings: its main page is http://www.newadvent.org/ The site includes excerpts from the letters that do not include the parts calling upon Christians to "cleanse the Church from every defilement" and to reject the apocryphal books "filled with myths, empty and polluted." --Wetman 04:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
First of all, these quotes are probably fictional. There are many copies of the Church Fathers' writings on the web. But a Google search for the quote you cited turns up only one entry: a paper refuting Elaine Pagels' claim that this quote comes from Athanasius.
William Jurgens' Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1 pp. 341-2 has a long excerpt from the letter. In the letter, Athanasius refers to the following extra books by name: "the Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach [Ecclesiasticus], and Esther, and Judith, and Tobias [Tobit], and the Teaching attributed to the Apostles [Didache], and the Shepherd." Athanasius writes that these books are not included in the canon, "but are recommended for reading". Hardly a demand that they be burnt!
He then writes, "No mention whatever need be made of the Apocrypha, which are the inventions of heretics." Here he almost certainly is referring to works such as those at Nag Hammadi. In other words, Athanasius' letter says nothing new about these books -- like all catholic churchmen in the 3rd and 4th century, he rejects them. This rejection can be found in many other church fathers. Hence the burden of proof lies with anyone who claims the Nag Hammadi books were hidden in response to Athanasius' letter. The much simpler hypothesis is that they were hidden in response to Emperor Theodosius' making catholic Christianity the Roman state religion, which happened 24 years after this letter. Lawrence King 05:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] A stupid question, I know, but...
I know this is going to come across as a stupid question, but... the article says that Athanasius (would Athanasios be the Greek spelling?) is venerated in the Roman Catholic Church and is celebrated by the Protestant movements. What I would like to know though, is should he be seen as part of the Byzantine tradition and if not, why not? ThePeg 17:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- He is venerated in the Eastern Orthodox Church as St. Athanasius the Great. His Feast days are Jan. 18 and May 2. MishaPan 09:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] It is an anachronism to say he was a Patriarch.
I think that he was an Archbishop, but I am not sure. Definitely not a Patriarch though. 89.210.15.179 23:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Patriarchates (at least the first four, including Alexandria) were established at the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325, so Athanasius would be the first Archbishop of Alexandria to use the title of Patriarch. I'm not sure when the Archbishops of Alexandria began to be called Popes, but I suspect it was even earlier than 325. Anybody have any information about this? MishaPan 09:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Constantinian Shift?
Near the end, the article says "He played a clear role in making the Constantinian shift a part of the theology of the church." This should really be removed, because it is not NPOV. The theory of the "Constantinian Shift" (as is evident from the article linked to) reflects the view of a particular sectarian stance, and is not neutral. MishaPan 09:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Three oe Four Discourses Against the Arians?
In the HISTORY section of this article, it is stated that Athanasius wrote something called "Three Discourses Against the Arians". are you sure that this is not suppose to be "Four Discourses Against the Arians"?
