Talk:Ashida Kim/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This is an archive of posts made to the Ashida Kim talk page from 16 September 2005 to 3 December 2005. Please do not edit this page, but make edits to the current talk page instead. Turnstep 19:28, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Will the real Ashida Kim please stand up?

There have been several ham handed attempts to contact me from AOL IPs from someone who claims to be User:Ashida Kim. I would recommend that if the person is really who they claim to be, that they just leave a message on this page (not my user page, jeez!) or contact me on my talk page through that account. I have several things that I would like to say to the person who has been leaving me those messages. --Fire Star 01:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

As do I, and I would appreciate it if they stopped sending me angry e-mails. Howabout1 ^{Talk to me!} 01:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, if our soi-disant ninja ever returns, he would do well to read our Wikipedia:No legal threats policy. --Fire Star 22:52, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

How Hateful You Are =

All those e-mails I sent you BEGGING for page protection and this is how you address the issue? By pretending it wasn't me? Just consider the illogic of that! Who would want to be me? And who would ask for nothing except a little common consideration? Here I am again, doing what you ask, trying to play by your rules, coming to your talk page to give you more attention. But, no matter what I do or say, you refuse to protect my page so my friends cannot be stalked. You and your ilk are all just trolls who have no decency whatsoever. You just want to play games hiding behind your silly "policies." I hope someone does this to you someday and you get to enjoy the frustration you inflict on me and others. I pray that all who come to your sick site will see that you are just another bunch of trash and bash liars who have never done anything of value and are so jealous of anyone who has that you would rather believe and publish lies about them than speak the truth. I ask you for the fifth time, as politely and respectfully as I can in light of your tacky behavior, to protect my page or remove it.

Ashida Kim dojopress@aol.com

(From my talk page):

I haven't had any emails from anyone claiming to be Ashida Kim in several months now, sorry. If you are really Kim and you honestly didn't anticipate the fact that the martial art business is dangerous to the (obviously) unprepared before you published your voluminous claims of mystical martial superiority, then I'm afraid I probably can't help you. You have a funny, rude way of threatening, insulting and then cajoling in order to try and get your way, and it isn't going to work. Politeness and respect are non-negotiable requirements here. I have always met you halfway, and again, if you behave yourself and watch your mouth, I will try to help you. If you continue to verbally abuse and threaten me and the other editors here, you are on your own, as simple as that. I will not protect the Ashida Kim page because, in my judgment, there is no reason to. You may be able to find another administrator to do so, however. If you don't want to behave well and still want the Ashida Kim page deleted, log on to your account at User:Ashida Kim and submit it to AfD yourself. On a professional note, if you are afraid that people are out to get revenge on you, don't expect too much sympathy from a traditional Chinese martial arts instructor. We are taught and teach strict confucian virtues, holding that such fear is the natural product of living an unrighteous life, and that if someone else solves these problems for you then you won't learn anything from the lesson (because that is what it is, didn't you know?) to the betterment of your character. It is very simple to avoid the problems you describe ahead of time with some common sense before the fact. Regards, --Fire Star 02:24, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Reply to AOL IP from my talk page

I too have had the same sort of attacks made against me on my own site by these trolls. But, I say again, that is not the issue. The issue is that your entry has been and can be again easily, used by the trolls to publish the addresses of my friends and put them in danger from real fighter(not all of them are honorable nor nice but care for the quality of the martial arts) who are looking to beat me up. Been through all of this on the Discussion page already. Please don't ask me to repeat it. You will see that no matter what I say, they just twist it and come back for more. It is obvious they are malevolent vandals(so said you). But I ask again, why is it so importanat for you to keep up an entry that serves no purpose but to bash me? You set yourself up Even now it "damns me with faint praise." No that is called Brown Nosing. Good or bad, Ashida Kim, you and your cult will always set yourselves up for bashing.

Ashida Kim

Well, if anyone posts the address of you or your friends then just post a request at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, and the information will be deleted from the article and the article history, and the offending poster probably banned. There is precedens for not allowing the posting of personal info. Thue | talk 16:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Things to add

Can we document some of the people who claim to have met the financial requirements of the $10,000 challenge and been declined? Without that it seems rather unsubstantiated. RJFJR 17:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

There are several threads relating to these claims at the bullshido discussion forum: Bullshido.com: Exposing Fraud in the Martial Arts --Fire Star 17:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

About the claims on Bullshido

Has any of the people from Bullshido given any proof of these allegations? They have the document that you have sign stated that person was a black belt in Vale Tudo. Vale Tudo has no ranking system like Tae kwon do or Karate. Vale Tudo, Muay Thai and other similar systems have no such belts for many years and you have no right to add your own belt system without their permission. Have they shown you these proofs of their claims? yes

I see nothing on the article that is untrue. Speaking of proof, has Kim ever answered the question of who awarded him his black belts? No He has not.

Death to duality

I'm not sure what is meant by this, can anyone elaborate?

In this case, it is a claim of transcendant enlightenment. --Fire Star 12:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and link it to enlightenment, then, because I had no idea what it meant either, and I suspect most people won't.—chris.lawson (talk) 12:14, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Does the Death to duality a figement of Ashida Kim's imagination? Yes Does anyone have any sources they can refer too where Ashida Kim mentions this in his books? No

"That placing one's palm on the opponent's chest brings death to duality."

"I have practically all of Master Kim's books (the ones from the 70's and 80's anyway) and I've never heard of death to duality before. The closest thing I can think of is that there's a dim hsueh point somewhere on the chest which is explained in 'Ninja Death Touch'. But that's barely related to this death to duality thing. So I have no idea what the guy was thinking when he initially wrote the article with 'Death to Duality' in it." -The IP Guy.

As I recall, the phrase was put in the article by User:Ashida Kim himself a few months back to answer some of the critical statements made about his claims. It is a stock phrase from Zen and other Buddhist and some Hindu traditions that I would expect a mystic-poseur to parrot. --Fire Star 01:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Protected

Congratulations, Mr. Kim, the article is now protected, thanks to your ego-centric vandalism. Func( t, c, @, ) 00:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Glad you decided to keep the article. On his board if anyone asks a question he does not want to answer (like the names of any of his teachers) they are banned. This page gives people a place to see a NPOV article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.117.8 (talk • contribs) .

This you call WP:NPOV? I mean, the guy seems like a real trip, but this article is about as neutral as an Alexander Cockburn screed. (He's the Last Living Marxist, doncha know ;) If it wasn't protected, I would be sooooo tempted to slap Template:NPOV on it - I mean if we're going to keep this thing after all the trouble it's caused, the least we can do is make it conform to our own policies. --Kgf0 06:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, this article isn't protected. Secondly, could you please explain what you consider to be POV about this article. This article doesn't paint Ashida Kim in a good light, but as far as I can tell this is backed up by appropriate sources. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 10:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

From a professional and ethical standpoint, it seems to me that it is Ashida Kim who paints Ashida Kim in a bad light. We simply report what is available and verfiable. If a statement can't be cited, it can certainly be removed. --Fire Star 13:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Original research

I've removed the section which speculates on Ashida Kim's identity. The only references it provided were to a forum, which I don't think we can consider to be a reliable secondary source. In my opinion, this is original research by proxy. If this content accepted, then anyone can bypass the original research prohibition by simply publishing their research on a blog before contributing it to Wikipedia. Pburka 14:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I've read the article that made the claim and while it may be plausible, I agree that the assertion is too anecdotal for our purposes. The article didn't provide enough verifiable detail. --Fire Star 22:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I have personally verified the copyright information posted. - O^O 02:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any way that you know of that the rest of us could? --Fire Star 02:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Even if all of us go and verify the copyright information, it's still original research. Copyright records are a primary source, and using them to infer Ashida Kim's identity is a novel interpretaion of that information. If a reliable secondary source (e.g. a martial arts magazine, the New York Times) were to publish this speculation about Kim's identity, then we could include it in the article. Pburka 03:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the section once more. I am convinced that this is original research. Although the research may not have been done expressly for Wikipedia, it has not "been published by a reputable publication", as required by WP:NOR. Furthermore, the article on bullshido.net which reveals this information explicitly references Wikipedia and the recent AfD, making it look suspiciously like this research was, in fact, done with the intent of publishing it in Wikipedia. Pburka 15:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that it was published specifically for inclusion here (The Bullshido crew have been going around with Ashida Kim for several years now), but I would indeed like to see some citations for the info provided from other verifiable sources. --Fire Star 15:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The article in question was researched by an attorney who used the services of a local professional investigator. The research is as solid as you're going to get, and I'm not sure why it would be removed. Wikipedia is not one of our primary concerns at Bullshido, and the article was written exclusively to put the proverbial nail in the coffin of this guy's already dubious credibility. As such, I feel the section should be included, but as I am an interested party I'll leave it up to another editor to replace. --Phrost 21:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

It is not a matter of whether the information is correct or not. "Truth" is too big a concept for a little project like Wikipedia. All we try to do is summarize verifable information in an NPOV manner. The trouble with this info is that it is not verifiable using wikipedia:reliable sources. If a more mainstream and accountable source, like a magazine or newspaper, gave Kim's real name then we could certainly include it. However Bullshido does not count as a reliable source. I am disturbed that you say the article was written as an attack on Kim's credibility. All of our articles should be NPOV and not written with an intent to harm their subjects. Please see the wikipedia:five pillars to find our core principles. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

You're confused. The "article" I'm referring to is not the Wikipedia one, it's the one for which the research was conducted and was eventually published on Bullshido. --Phrost 21:06, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Where was the article originally published? -Willmcw 21:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Originally published on Bullshido. It's all original research complete with extensive references that can be verified by anyone willing to look. --Phrost 15:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Webforums are not considered wikipedia:reliable sources. The references themselves might by usable. -Willmcw 19:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I agree with you. This is an exception, as Bullshido is not exclusively a web forum but it also posts articles, similar to how Slashdot, Boingboing, deviantART, Fark, Kuro5hin, or any number of websites publish or redistribute news and then allow their community to provide instant feedback. The bulk of the information provided within the Bullshido article does appear to be reliable, as it can be verified by a number of different private and public databases. Hall Monitor 19:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Ashida's revenge

First is Ashida Kim giving out the owner of Wikipedia's personal info on his forum. [1]

Second is Ashida Kim telling his forum that Bullshido is really a rival ninja clan (run by Stephen K. Hayes) out to take away his business: [2]

Third is Ashida Kim's correspondence with The Church of Satan in 1994. Starting with a letter from a girl named Judy W. who Ashida Kim has bullied and threatened to join his Black Dragon ninja clan. Next is the letter from Ashida Kim where he brags how he kicked Haye's students butts. Brags that he became a ninja by "beating people up". Writes how he could have killed Stephen K. Hayes with his death touch. Makes claims that he can stop his heart at will and become invisible. Finally are Stephen K. Hayes responses. [3]Kenpo Tom 16:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow. The modern martial arts business is a fraud magnet, as sleazy as any other subjective arena. In the old days this guy would have been shut down by the respectable martial artists in his community. I'm afraid you won't hear much about respectable martial artists these days. Caveat Emptor! --Fire Star 00:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Why do you think we started Bullshido in the first place?

I wouldn't worry about the threats too much, it's mostly hot air. Immediately after publishing our research on Kim's identity (performed by an Attorney and private investigator no less), Radford/Kim poted to his forums that he'd be coming for us and "wouldn't be shooting pictures". Fortunately, I haven't been shot by Ninjas lately. --Phrost 21:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

hmmm if he follows the sollog rout we should expect a wikipdia sucks website shortly.Geni 01:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

But it's amazing that this Kim character has so many fawning fans over on his own forum... people really do have an enormous "home field advantage" on their own web forums, as they can surround themselves with "yes-people" to confirm their own self-importance and POV. *Dan T.* 14:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd reprotect this. Howabout1 ^{Talk to me!} 02:44, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. Zach (Sound Off) 04:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Ashida Kim is totally sweet

Ashida Kim has Real Ultimate Power! He cuts off heads all the time and doesn't even think twice about it! Adam Bishop 06:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

External links

Ashida's website was "suspended" by a webhost called "vDeck." There is no reason given for the suspension, but because of this, ashidakim and dojomaster were taken down. That only left one article left, which was nothing but criticism. So we could be NPOV, I removed all links. I know this is not a good time to do such an act, but we just cannot host dead links. Zach (Sound Off) 07:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Kim claims

It strikes me that 2/3 of this article is comprised of claims by the subject and discussion of those claims. If we remove the claims and the $10k challenge there are only four sentences.

Ashida Kim is the pseudonym of a controversial Florida-based American martial arts teacher and author best known for his books on ninjitsu training published during the 1970s and 1980s. Kim promotes himself as the leader of the Black Dragon Fighting Society form of Koga Ryu ninjitsu. Kim is not known to be recognized by any official Japanese martial arts scholar or organization. Kim offers mail-order black belt programs in a belt factory fashion.

With some additional copyediting and NPOVing, would this make a more succinct, NPOV article? -Willmcw 08:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Why would you remove his claims, though? The fact that he claims these things is completely verifiable, and it's part of what makes him notable. Would you remove Sollog's claims? And how could simply documenting a person's notable claims possibly violate NPOV? Obviously, any comments made regarding those claims would have to be very carefully phrased so as to be NPOV, but that's what we're here for. :) --Ashenai (talk) 09:59, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

As I said before, the websites that posts these claims were taken down by the web server that hosted Ashida's website. But, as always, we could state what he claimed to do and see if it was true, what it was said it about, and as pointed out at the AFD, maybe post a book review or two. Zach (Sound Off) 17:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is a good book review of Ashida Kim's Mugei Mumei No Jitsu (which includes free black belt certificate).[4]Kenpo Tom 16:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Bibliography

I found these on Amazon:

Ashida Kim (1983). Ninja death touch. Paladin Press. ISBN 0873642570.
Ashida Kim (1984). Dragon lady of the ninja. Paladin Press.
Ashida Kim (1985). Forbidden Fighting Techniques of the Ninja. Citadel Press. ISBN 0806509570.
Ashida Kim (1985). Ninja Hands of Death. Paladin Press. ISBN 0873643224.
Ashida Kim (1985). Secrets of the Ninja. Berkley Publishing Group. ISBN 0425083918.
Ashida Kim (1986). Ninja Secrets of Invisibility. Berkley Publishing Group. ISBN 0425087883.
Ashida Kim (1987). Ninja cloak and dagger: Espionage and weapon techniques. Paladin Press. ISBN 0873644190.
Ashida Kim (1987). Deadly grip of the Ninja: Lethal throws and takedowns. Paladin Press.
Kim Ashida (1987). Ninja Mind Control. Berkley Publishing Group. ISBN 042509894X.
Ashida Kim & anonymous other (1995). How to Become a Ninja: Secrets from Ashida Kim's Training Camp. Citadel Press. ISBN 0806515589.
Ashida Kim (1997). The Invisible Ninja: Ancient Secrets of Surprise. Citadel Press. ISBN 0806518731.
Ashida Kim (1997). Iron Body Ninja: The Secrets of Superior Strength. Citadel Press. ISBN 080651910X.
Ashida Kim (1998). The Invisible Fist: Secret Ninja Methods of Vanishing Without a Trace. Citadel Press. ISBN 0806520183.
Ashida Kim (2000). Ninjitsu for Women: Ninja Secrets of Defensive Fighting. Citadel Press. ISBN 0806521457.

There were various reprints which I didn't bother with. I didn't add them to the article because it's protected. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 10:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I think we have Wikisource for that. Zach (Sound Off) 17:11, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Editing while protected

I protest the recent edits by Zscout370 while this page is under protection. The decision to "remove" the dead links exceeds the accepted norms for allowable edits while the page is under protection. The decision to remove the remaining live link was an editorial decision that reflects one individual admin's (incorrect) perception of NPOV. -O^O 16:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

With the only link that was present was [http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewreview&id=160, which is very critical of Ashida. Because of that, if I left that link remain, I would be people telling me I have an anti-Ashida bias. So, to be fair, I removed all the external linkls, including to Bullshido. If his website gets back online, sure, they can go back in. Plus, the main reason why this is protected because of the recent spree of vandalism and a request of the talk page of this article. Zach (Sound Off) 17:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Zscout370, with all due respect, once a page is protected there are very limited edits that should be done. Those are primarily inserting tags such as NPOV or AFD, or reverting to a pre-controversy version. I think it is appropriate to remove dead links once the page is unprotected, but not during. -O^O 17:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Then I apologize for my mess up. Now, the external links look fine and I added the listing of the books that he wrote. Good job on adding the link to his forum, since that is his only (?) website that remains up. Zach (Sound Off) 17:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

No hard feelings; I only wonder how long it can stay unprotected before the vandalism starts again. ;-) -O^O 17:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

If that happens, I will have someone else protect it. Zach (Sound Off) 17:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

There are enough people paying attention to the article now that I think we can relax a bit about vandalism. A very similar thing happened over at the Sollog article about a year ago. With sufficient attention, the vandals were handled quite effectively IMO. --Fire Star 18:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I am facing a similiar problem with Michael Crook, but this edit [5] was down right funny, IMHO. Zach (Sound Off) 18:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

$10,000 challange

Is the second paragraph of this section POV? I'm tempted to removed it completely. What are other's thoughts on this? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 15:44, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Yank or severely scrub. I almost just did so myself in my last batch of edits. Turnstep 16:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Reword it until it's NPOV. It is what Ashida Kim has on his website why he must have the $10,000 challenge. It is so that he is a professional fighter, and stated will not engage in tests of street brawling. --Masssiveego 18:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Certain sentences were erased because of their POV. Such as unrecongized as unsupportable, given that more then half a dozen dojo's such as Akidogirl, recognize that Ashida Kim is

a martial arts master, that has crossed trained. I feel some of these statements need to be both regrouped and rewritten until they accurately reflect Ashida Kim.

Sources: Ashida Kim Website as references to his skill.

Shen Lung Yi Martial Arts(570)961-3254 Owner/Chief Instructor: Ian Prescott Scranton, Pa Xing yi quan, Ba gua, Tai chi, Liu He Ba Fa, Koga Ninjitsu, Esoteric Qi gong, Private Security/Bodyguard experience and consultation, self defense, fitness, and weapons. shifu@shenlungyi.com

Sensei Mark Cody, DOJO, Lake Alfred FL 33850 USA; 5th Dan Wado-Ryu Karate-Do; Swordsmith & Batto-Jitsuist; Author & Scholar; Offers Specialized Live On-Site Instruction with the DOJO Directory and Training Program procedure. Classes with Sensei Kim by Appointment E-mail: http://bushido@tampabay.rr.com

Sensei Michael J. Blondeau, 5th Degree Black Belt; Koga-Do-Ryu Ninjitsu; 21 Dickey St, Apt # 21, Amhearst, Nova Scotia B4H-2J1 Canada

Sensei Efrain Ortiz, Peaceful Warriors Institute of Martial Arts & Sohei Traditions,25 Years Martial Art Experience: 6th Dan Black Belt in Kempo-Ninjitsu Certified Teacher, Sifu Chi Lin Pai Kung Fu; Black Belt TKD; Certified Master in Close Protection; Graduate from DTI and Global schools of Private Investigation, Fluent in English/Spanish Holds BA, CA Teaching Credential and Hon. Ph.D. 15650A Vineyard Blvd. #195, Morgan Hill CA 95037; (408) 482-3694 e-mail kishido@earthlink.net

Sensei Steve Williams, Black Dragon Society of Texarkana, founder of Roninkai Dojo; Black Belt Koga HaiLungRyu Ninjitsu; Black Belt Dragon Kenpo Karate; Certified U.S. Marine Corps Hand-to-Hand Combat / Knife Fighting Instructor; Marine Corps Infantry training; other training includes: Tiger Kung Fu, Okinawa-Te Karate, Isshinryu Karate, Jujutsu, American Combat Judo, and Guerrilla Warfare. Services Offered: Counter-Stalking Measures, Women's Self Defense, Militia Training, Unarmed Combat, Knife Fighting Instruction, Stalking Methods and Sentry Neutralization Instruction, and Espionage (both physical and electronic methods). AGENTS AVAILABLE 24 HOURS A DAY. Contact: The Sensei, 870-779-1954, RoninkaiDojo@aol.com, (physical address withheld for security purposes).

Shihan- K. Cain 5th degree black belt- Koga Tenchi Ryu Ninjutsu, 5th degree black belt American Combat Ninjutsu, 4th degree black belt Ju-Jitsu, 3rd degree black belt Kenpo Ju-Jitsu, Mauy Thai kickboxer, CQC self-defense instructor, black belt member of the Black Dragon Ninja Society, co founder Sasori Neko Ryu Goshin-Jitsu Silat Association & founder of American Combat Science Society. For more information on Shihan Cain please visit: http://www.combatninjutsu.com/

Sensei Daniel Sainty 3rd Dan Black Belt Kokuryu (Black Dragon) Ninjitsu, Liason and Regional Director of Ninja Temple 2000 in Australia, Sole Authorized Distributor of the Official Ninja Training Manual in Australia. P.O. Box 650 Banora Point, NSW 2486. E-Mail: danielsainty@hotmail.com

--Masssiveego 18:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

At one time I had a link on this article to Wayne Muramoto's article: Real or Fake? Is Your Martial Arts School Legitimate? but it was removed. A relevant quote to the issue of traditional Japanese martial arts organisations is as below:

"The Internet, although it's a source of cheap frauds, is also a great resource for networking. Various discussion groups will be able to put you in touch with people who can give you frank opinions about nearly any martial arts organization in the US. There are discussion groups for karate, aikido, iaido, and jujutsu. Post a question about a group and you will get a lot of replies from nearly anyone who has an opinion about it in a few days, if not hours.

The koryu (ancient martial arts) are a bit harder to ferret out, which is why you will find more fakes, frauds and truthshavers here than in, say, Shotokan karate. For one thing, most of the literature remains in Japanese, and there aren't that many practitioners in America who can go back to the original source materials easily. How do you know if Master Joe Bob is really a teacher of some ancient swordfighting art called Tenshin Shoden Shinkage Shinto Booga Booga-ryu?

Again, obtain as much information as you can on your visit to the dojo. Then try to find resource material that corroborates or deny the claims. I know they're going to hate me for giving 'em more work to do, but besides the above mentioned books and Internet groups, there are several individuals who can help you, if they're not too busy. Hugh F. Davey of the Shudokan Martial Arts Association maintains strong connections with legitimate credential-giving authorities in Japan. Diane and Meik Skoss of Koryu Books were/are members of several koryu arts and study groups in Japan for several years. Now relocated in the continental US, they are a prime resource of information. Kim Taylor, who puts out the laido Newsletter, teaches at the University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada, and sponsors several sword and iaido seminars, is also a good source. All of these people can be found by searching the Internet for their web sites and/or discussion groups.

People like the Skosses and Kim Taylor, etc. are becoming more important, because the frauds themselves are organizing into their own legitimizing groups. To lend an air of authenticity, some groups are banding together and awarding each other tenth degree black belts. So then they legitimize each other's fakery. If you check out such individual instructors against their self-serving groups, you may be put under the impression that they're legitimate, unless you hunt the Internet and contact other people not connected with them.

If it is a koryu, nine times out of ten the style should be listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, a compendium of martial arts systems put together by Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi. This book is over 1,000 pages of small type and has yet to be fully translated into English, and obtaining an out-of-print copy in Kanda, Tokyo, would set you back several hundred dollars. But it sits on the bookshelf of most bilingual researchers, and anytime someone asks me an obscure question about koryu lineage, it's the first book I pull out.

Another warning sign that your style may be fake is if you ask about lineage, and the teacher or the senior students put you off, saying you're not ready for such secret knowledge. Japanese society is notorious for its mountains of paperwork, and all legitimate martial ryu (styles) were assiduously recorded and documented in some kind of provincial or clan record. Watatani and Yamada assembled all the known references together into compiling several thousands of ryu listing. If the koryu is not listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, I'd be very suspicious.

One word of warning, though. All the books on the shelves of your local chain bookstore may not be equally legitimate. As a longtime journalist, I've run into cases where people believe anything that's been printed, because it's printed. That's not true. Even the most sincere writers can make honest errors in accuracy. And with mass media and the fast buck being so omnipresent, books, magazines and the Internet are flooded with frauds of all kinds, not just in martial arts. Books have been printed on glossy stock with fancy photographs that, to my eyes, are full of crap (pardon the expression, but that's my gut reaction to some of the stuff I see).

Someone once sent me a book about his teacher and style, perhaps to make me aware of this "unique individual." What I saw, however, was a carefully orchestrated con game foisted on that admirer and the rest of the students; a con game perpetrated for decades through a masterful use of obscurity, oriental stereotypes and misunderstanding of Japanese history."

The lineage claimed by Ashida Kim seems to me to follow the last paragraph pretty closely. --Fire Star 00:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Ashida Kim has on his website his master was Shendai,

I think Ashida Kim's Shotokan master introduced the two.--Masssiveego 05:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Plz keep NPOV type

SENSEI

I WHO EDITED NINJA AND ASHIDA KIM PAGES AM A TRUE NINJA.

I AM A PRACTITIONER OF DUX RYU NINJUTSU AND HJAVE BEEN CALLED A FRAUD BY MANY

I AM NOT RELATED TO OR AFFILIATED TO ASHIDA KIMJ

YOUR ARTICLE IS TOO BIASED AND JIMBO STOP HARASSING IM

A TRUE NINJA STANDS UP FOR FRIEND

Whether you (anonymously) are a true ninja or not is irrelevant... vandalizing pages is against Wikipedia policy whether it is done by true or false ninjas, or anybody else. *Dan T.* 16:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

HEY DAN CAN YOU ALTER ASHIDA KIMS PAGE SO THAT IT IS A LOT LESS BIASED I MEAN YOU GUYS ARE ON THE TOP OF HIS SHITLIST DUH???????

ACTUALLY A GROUP OF US DID THIS 8 DIFFERENT COMPUTER S IN THE STATE OF HAWAII.

MY NAME IS JOHN PETERSON LLOYD OK WE SHALL STOP REVERTIN HENCEFORTH

KIMBO

HEY DAN CAN YOU ALTER ASHIDA KIMS PAGE SO THAT IT IS A LOT LESS BIASED I MEAN YOU GUYS ARE ON THE TOP OF HIS SHITLIST DUH???????

ACTUALLY A GROUP OF US DID THIS USING 8 DIFFERENT COMPUTER S MY NAME IS JOHN PETERSON LLOYD I AM THE LEADER

IT WAS I WHO KEPT ALTERING JIMBOS PAGE TOO

All right people we should have a vote to delete ethe corresponding page

We have already had two AfD votes, one nominated by Jimbo himself. The result in both cases was KEEP. Now please, enough of this sillyness. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 16:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

LLOYD

OK CAN YOU DELETE THIS PAGE OR AT LEAST LET US EDIT IT INTO A MORE UNBIASED FORM

JIMBO EH MON CA NYU DELETE THIS PAGE

anon

I SUGGEST WE NOMINATE THIS PAGE FOR DELETION.

ALL ACROSS THE WORLD,USA INCLUSIVE THERE ARE BILLIONS OF KARATE DOJOS,NINJUTSU ACADEMIES AND BOXING RINGS.

THERE ARE COUNTLESS TEACHERS WHO ARE FRAUDS Y IS ASHIDA KIM ATTACKED????????

I CHANGED KARATE SCHOOL S 4 TIMES UNTIL I FOUND 1 ALL THE SENSEIS SAID THAT THEY WERE THE LAST OF GHRANDMASTERS STUDENTS BUT DID NOT KNPOW EACH OTHER

As mentioned above, it's been nominated twice and was kept both times by a clear consensus. Ashida Kim isn't attacked in his article, his eccentric past and marketing claims (and counter-claims) are simply documented. Some people will think that makes him look like a mercenary fraud, other people will think that makes him look like a paranoid casualty of the 1960s who lives in a fantasy world of his own making, yet others will think that he is the invincible great-grand-master of all things ninja. That is up to the reader. If you have something to add to the article, something that will stand up to the standards of verifiability, then please do so. If not, please stop posting disingenuous messages here, or failing that, at least hit your Caps Lock button before typing them. Regards, --Fire Star 17:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Eccentric?

Yeah anon is right man there are billions of fraud martial arts instructors all over the USA. Ashida Kim is not as famous as Bruce Leee but in his hometown he is just another master. after all,we dont know what crap Frank Dux taught for people to call him a fraud.

I don't know anything about a true ninja,there is no evidence that they are descendants of yesteryears ninja and much of their history is documented orally.

Still,I am curious as to why only Ashida Kim's page was put up when there are several other teachers? Could Jimmy Wales please verify my question?

As I understand it, the main reason he was deemed notable in the AfD was his published works. The fact that other equally notable teachers aren't in here could simply be that nobody has written them an article yet. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 15:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

CANCEL from protecrion

HOW DO we know that Ashida Kim was the 1 who was vandalizing the pages.

Do we have to care? A vandal is a vandal, no matter who he/she is in the real world. *Dan T.* 17:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks like these vandals want their demands met(page deletion)

And it's important not to give in to the demands of vandals or terrorists. *Dan T.* 17:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

John P Lloyd I've done research on ninja and never heard of him.

who would vandalise yhe page,bvesides this guy is serious,he vandalised all ninja related pages from shuriken to ninjutsu.

wouldnt it be better to remove ashidas page.

John Peterson Lloyd should post a page for himself to show us his true face not bask in our unknown presence with a (probable) pseudonymn

Delete

DELETION may be a good idea man,i mean it may be the right thing to do. Still,it s your decision dude.

Maybe,it was 1 vandal with access tomany IP s

could you tell me the wikipedia page to view a list of vandals who operate as such eg britney spears penis ,september 14th vandal,george bush vandal,silent holocaust vandal,darth vader ,bulldog and ninja vandals.

tell me the page to view the list of such vandals