Talk:Asceticism
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- Title Change This page title needs to be changed to "Asceticism." The "-ism" form of the term is more representative of the material in the article and that which needs to be added. There is no need for a separate article entitled "Ascetic."
Agreed, be bold --Doc (?) 11:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] can we get a rabbi up in here?
this article makes three references to Jewish/Hebrew cultures, none of which seem to make any sense- at least to this Jewish visitor- and none of which are substantiated. interestingly, no mention is made of jewish fasting holidays. i don't know how you all operate, but i'd suggest that you get someone with some actual credentials to look at this page.
sorry that i probably formatted this wrong. 68.14.108.173 04:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern secularism section
The section titled "Forms of Asceticism within Modern Secularism" is original research. It is written in the first person, and it expresses the author's personal opinion about asceticism and modern life. I think it would be possible to rewrite it in a neutral manner, using references, but it would require research. Please don't re-add this section until you've rewritten it per the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. Rhobite 14:31, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
- I added some examples to get things started. The Starving Artist page could use some help, though. The example of computer hackers living in their offices is based on Steven Levy's book "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution" (1984), and the biography of Richard Stallman. These are referenced on their respective pages, so I didn't repeat the reference here. -Rbean 22:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Re: athletes preparing for an event. Ejaculating lowers testosterone levels, which is a bad thing for many athletes. And rich foods are often high in fat, simple sugars or salt, or else just not particularly high in quality calories/nutrients. It's a little misleading to say athletes control their sex lives/diet in the name of mental preparation.164.143.244.34 16:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Victorians
I wonder about the appropriateness of the sentence "The Victorians encapsulated the ascetic temperament with their admonition, "You have to take your medicine like a man.". It seems to represent stoicism, rather than asceticism; 'Keeping a stiff upper lip' does not preclude sensuous revelry. Samwilson 09:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
-- I second that - the essence of asceticism is purification through self-deprivation and discomfort, not personal responsibility - and as there's been no objection in three weeks, I cut it.
That seems more in line with the more hardliner Protestant groups which formed and saw very little returned virtue from attonement but rather in complete avoidance of "sin"
[edit] Schopenhauer
"...there arises in him a strong aversion to the inner nature whose expression is his own phenomenon, to the will-to-live, the kernel and essence of that world recognized as full of misery. He therefore renounces precisely this inner nature, which appears in him and is expressed already by his body, and his action gives the lie to his phenomenon, and appears in open contradiction thereto." "Thus he resorts to fasting, and even to self-castigation and self-torture, in order that, by constant privation and suffering, he may more and more break down and kill the will that he recognizes and abhors as the source of his own suffering existence and of the world's."
[edit] removed: sephardic vs ashkenazic
80.178.62.67 added this text:
"It can be argued, however, that while Judaism outwardly claims to oppose asceticim, nonetheless, many ascetic practices made their way into normative Judaism through contact with ascetic cultures, i.e. Ashkenazic Judaism's contact with the Christian world. Evidence for this can be seen in the fact that Sephardic Jews, whose main contact with other cultures was through the less ascetic societies of the Arabic-speaking world, tend to interpret the Torah in a far less ascetic way."
I removed it. First it has weasel words "it can be argued" - who says so? Second it rasies the point that ashkenazic Judasim has more ascetic pratices then sefardic. This is interesting but I would like a specific example. I know quite a bit about both and have never heard of such a difference. I would let the weasel words go, if there was a specific example, but without one this section doesn't actually have any real content. 67.165.96.26 02:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
what about adding Nazarite as an example of Asceticism in Judisiam ? rkmlai 21:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Max Weber and translation issue
This is Talcott Parsons' footnote on "worldly asceticism", from The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism:
This seemingly paradoxical term has been the best translation I could find for Weber's innerweltliche Askese, which means asceticism practiced within the world as contrasted with ausserweltliche Askese, which withdraws from the world (for instance into a monastery). Their precise meaning will appear in the course of Weber's discussion. It is one of the prime points of his essay that asceticism does not need to flee from the world to be ascetic. I shall consistently employ the terms worldly and otherworldly to denote the contrast between the two kinds of asceticism.
-Rbean 22:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I am glad to see that this issue had been raised. Claiming that modern Judaism flat out rejects asceticism is rather irresponsible. It is openly debated in the Talmud in several places (notably Ta'anit 10b) and in Gitten there is the famous story of R' Tzadok who fasted for forty years so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed. Classic ascetic concepts can be found in Sha'arei Teshuva (Gates of Repentence), Orchos Tzadikim (Ways of the Righteous), Messilas Yesharim (Path of the Straight Ones) and other accepted writings. It's hard to understand the concept of "Prishus" (abstaining, removing oneself) or "Kedusha" (seperating oneself) without drawing somewhat from the tenants of asceticism. Perhaps what is meant by "asceticism is utterly rejected by modern day Judaism" is that most practices such as voluntary fasting and self-denial are considered (, by many modern rabbis,)unadvisable for all but the most spiritually attuned nowadays.
[edit] jainism
What about Jainism?--Sonjaaa 15:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
- I would second this. Jainism is definitely a unique ascetic religion, I'd like to see some info on this page --Jackson 11:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Jainism most definately should be addressed nov 2006
Argeed Jainism is probably the most devot to Ascetism Feb 2007
I have inserted a page on Jainism --Anishshah19 10:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Christianity? Or gnosticism?
This is one of the many core differences between Judaism and Christianity, which holds that the world is basically evil (original sin) and is to be avoided. In contrast Judasim holds that only by living in the world and enjoying it can the world be spiritually elevated.
It seems to me that this is an inaccurate understanding of Christianity. It is gnosticism, in fact, that teaches that the material world is evil.
Anyone have any thought on this, and/or how it should be modified? akavlie 10:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I've heard many references in Cristianity about the world being evil, many of them quoted from the Bible. However the stress tends to be that the "things of this world" are to be avoided, and that Christians are to live within this world, but be apart from the evils in it. --Ollock 17:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not Christianity it's Protestantism which has nothing to do with Christian principles, it's just individuals misinterpreting books. 83.70.244.59 00:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
That's offensive, untrue, and irrelevant.
[edit] Concern
First, Akavalie is correct, the idea that the world is evil is Gnostic, and specifically heretical to Christianity. Christianity, like Judaism, teaches that God created the world "and saw that it was good." The entry still suggests that this is "one of the core differences" between Christianity and Judaism, which is just false. This seems to me essentially a misunderstanding (which indeed may be shared by some Christians as well as by others) of Christian asceticism and the ways Christians have traditionally talked about asceticism. At any rate I'm not aware that the idea of the world as evil is actually a part of any major Christian theology.
Second, I feel like this article is a lacking in neutrality and even in comprehension of its subject. Its tone to me reflects distaste and skepticism toward asceticism. The section on Judaism fairly praises that faith for its ostensible rejection of asceticism, which is simply untrue since Judaism incorporates many ascetical disciplines such as fasting and dietary restrictions. So this reflects a poor understanding of even the dictionary definition of asceticism, and it seems to me that authors have wanted to use this article to make a case against asceticism. At the same time, it does a poor job describing the rationales for asceticism and its place within spiritual practice--the section on Christianity, my own tradition, sheds almost no light on this at all.
I hesitate to go in and make edits myself with my own particular understandings, but for what it's worth this is my stab at the traditional functions of ascetical practice in the Catholic Christian tradition. The measure of Christian spiritual practice is growth of selfless, generous love in the person. Inborn and acquired desires and appetites and worldly attachments stand in the way of our ability to love and give freely. Ascetical practices from Lenten fasting to the "evangelical counsels" of poverty, chastity, and obedience practiced by religious are profitable if and only if practiced as acts of humble, self-giving love for God and for neighbor. Lenten fasting is to be practiced together with prayer and almsgiving. To fast because you think fasting in and of itself is virtuous or because food or appetite is bad is just pride or loathing; to fast as an act of penitence for one's acknowledged selfishness, as a joyful act of faith and turning toward God, and in preference to feed others rather than oneself, is an act of love. The fruits of good ascetical practice are humility and charity, as well as peace, freedom from the anxiety of clinging to and striving after the things of the world, and grateful joy in all things, such as St. Francis of Assisi was famous for. The counterintuitive blessedness of humility and sacrifice is very significant to Christianity, as reflected for instance in the Beatitudes. Asceticism is not ultimately a running away from the world, but a way to an even deeper, warmer and more clear-eyed intimacy with it.
So, asceticism is not always easy to understand, and yes sometimes it's neurotic and fearful, but it can have a very positive role in spirituality. Maybe someone else will know how to change the article to neutrally reflect its fuller meaning.
--Elizdelphi 17:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I very much agree that an ascetic life leads one a "very positive role in spirituality" as you call it, this because Jesus was against many indulgent pleasures. One should not immerse themselves in bodily pleasures, nor food or drink, etc. However, the ascetic life is perhaps more gruesome, one does not just strive for a "mean" with pleasures of touch but perhaps avoids them entirely to a point of deficiency. This can be observed in obstinacy, in which the Jewish tradition is very much against. The church is very much in favor of virginity and the earliest Christians, most notable Paul, believed obstinacy was the preferable route simply because it wouldn't matter if you had Children; Jesus' return was imminent. (See Paul of Tarsus_ Eschatology). An ascetic life errs on the side of deficiency in pleasures albeit they are only pleasures of sense. Even the most ascetic life, perhaps that of a monk, entailed indulgence of beer during lint... this in essence catapulted the immergence of beer (it was however mentioned in Gilgamesh), but Monks would use beer as a way to get on without eating food.. this was no normal beer.. rather very very thick.. and one can only imagine the consequences of its alcohol content. Saints like Augustine would actually abstain from pleasures of the sense, albeit he was perhaps guilty of sadism as his doctrine on original sin was revolutionary for the church. This doctrine, as malevolent as it seems, declares all those baptized and in the church as potential peoples for salvation... it however is not guaranteed as those saved are pre-selected and most are doomed to hell. This sadistic idea is very much in line with the burning of witches in early America, even those who believed "witches didn't exist" were compromising their livelihood... witchery is blatantly condemned in Deuteronomy (for more interesting tidbits see Wikipedia’s criticism of Christianity). I think perhaps the most appropriate question to ask in regards to a "obstinate" life is what makes certain pleasures good or bad, it of course depends on which ones... and "why" an ascetic life leads one more into a positive role in spirituality. It is of course a neccessity for humans to have some pleasure in life, as not all pleasures are bad (surely love for another individual is not a bad pleasure)... and why those who adopt only a select few ascetic principles are hypocritical. The ascetic life is very much against all pleasures, it is perhaps blind to which ones one should endorse, it errs to the deficiency of how a man should live.
68.58.71.152 19:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
- To shun all pleasure is neuroticism, not asceticism. Anybody whose supposed "ascetical discipline" is loveless, oppressive, obsessive/compulsive, masochistic or neurotic rather than life-giving needs to stop it and/or get some counseling. To bring the conversation back to the wiki, it's important that the article reflect ascetical practices as practices of spiritual life and growth, rather than a philosophical or neurotic rejection of all pleasure or of the world.
--Elizdelphi 23:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The body is actually very important in Christianity, The Risen Christ appears in "body and soul". And also the world is not evil, the world is a creation of God and therefore cannot be evil. But evil entered the world and mankind has enough knowledge to discern what is good and what is bad. The view on Christianity doesn't reflect what the Church states.
[edit] Nietzsche
Nietzsche wrote a good deal about asceticism as a manifestation of the will to power, as well as a denial of life. I'm prepared to give a treatment of his discussion here, if people think its relevant to the "critics" section. --Jackson 11:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
it is relevant--fred
[edit] Dispute Tags
Very insightful comments, Elizdelphi. I do not feel that I am qualified to make extensive changes to the article, either... at least not outside the Christianity section. I am tempted, though, to just wipe out the Judaism section in hopes that it will be rewritten more accurately.
For now, I'm going to tag it with factual accuracy and neutrality tags.
akavlie 04:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
