Talk:Aryan Nations

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Aryan Nations article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies


Should we mention that Aryanism should not be confused with Arianism? Or would such a warning create confusion? --Ed Poor


172.201.219.112 entries should be disgarded. ~

I think its worth noting that The New Order isnt totaly gone. While the people that were planing a terrorist attack were indeed arested, at least somebody is trying to keep it alive, because I have personaly recieved mail from The New Order in an attempt to have me join them. ~ Dennis Gutknecht Jr. (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)

Yes, but you are in Wisconsin. Alex, Atlanta, GA

i used archive.org to look up the www.jesusishitler.com site mentioned in the article and found passages like this:

"You might also wonder why Germany? Think about it. Germany just got their asses kicked in World War I. Who better to fuck over? They were the easy target for takeover. I mean come on, it's Germany, nobody cares about Germany. Not then, not now. Germany was also a good place for a central control center, so he could take over other countries and hide more concentration camps.

It's also believed that Jesus hated Japanese people because he was bad at writing haikus. This hasn't been proven, but I wouldn't doubt it."

i think it's safe to say this site is a joke, not an actual fringe group website :P

--

There's real Aryan Nations website at http://www.aryan-nations.org

Oh my, I can't believe anyone takes Aryan Nations/Church of Jesus Christ seriously. This is obviously not a Nazi organization but a mockery which may as well have been made by the communists themselves. They believe in a distasteful mix of fantasy stories spiced with "Nazi" symbols just to shock. I can assure you all that this has nothing to do with "fascism" as you call it and is about as serious as that www.jesusishitler.com website mentioned above. This is as stupid as the atheist Church of Satan whose ridiculous statements Wikipedia quite humourously use as the source for its article of Satanism. This must be the worst encyclopaedia I have ever read. Frankly I think these kinds of articles belong on www.uncyclopedia.org instead.

-- The Aryan Nations page is wrong, there never was no such person "muchless leader" of the Aryan Nations named Jonathon Williams, the Aryan Nations is led by August Kreis III.

I don't know why you keep changing it & blocking my ip from fixing it but the Aryan Nations was not & is not run by this 20 year old Kid named Jonathan Williams who wrote this stuff.

Contents

[edit] Take group and page seriously - please stop vandalism and POV wars

Aryan Nations was and is a real organization, as even a little library research easily demonstrates. There is currently some disagreement over its control and future. I suggest that we just state that for the time being. In the future, please sign your comments, even if it is just a code or fictitious name.--Cberlet 22:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


I am Aryan Nations, I know all the Leaders & Jonathan Willams was never even a member, matter of fact he's never even been a member of the AN, I have pictures with Butler & News paper articles where Butler, Butler assigned Redfaeirn as his predocessor just do a Google Search, Redfaeirn died 1 year later & he not only named but it was automaticaly left to August Kreis III "The Aryan Nations National Director" as appointed by Butler, the current leader is Kreis, Williams was never even a member of the Aryan Nations muchless a leader.

[edit] Protected

...work out your differences here please. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 22:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I totally understand that folks insist that the group they are not in is the fake, but here at Wikipedia, we rely on references to what other people have published. So please start by listing here on the discussion page the links to published material that discusses the power struggle after Butler's death. In this case, a few links to pages from the various groups that claim they are the rightful Aryan Nations would be appropriate to be included on the page as part of the discussion. If some group such as the SPLC has published material about any of these claims, that would also be appropriate. The page will stay locked until an agreement is worked out. This is standard Wikipedia policy--even for neo-Nazis. :-) --Cberlet 23:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Real Aryan Nations Website

Jonathan Williams was never a member of the Aryan Nations "muchless the leader", The Aryan Nations website is http://www.Aryan-Nations.org run by August Kreis III, World Chaplain is James P. Wickstrom.

No one in the Aryan Nations has ever even heard of Jonathan Williams. Years before Butler died " The Founder" Butler made multiple news paper & tv appearances announcing Redfairin as his predocessor & Kreis as National Director, then 1 year later Redfairin died of a heart attack leaving Juba, Juba shortly after resigned & to of wich he publically annouced as you see everything below coinsiding with leaving The Aryan Nations in the hands of August Kreis III "Long term member & personal friend of Butler,Redfairin & Juba. Jonathan Williams was not even a member of the Aryan Nations We don't even know who he is. It's kinda funny really, that a 20 year old kid would claim to be the leader of the infamous Aryan Nation "World Headquarters" when all he really ever did was buy Butlers old personal website address after he died.

Just do a search in Google, Butler was the founder of the Aryan Nations, his Predecessor was Redfairin & Juba, Redfairin died & Juba resigned than 1 year later leaving it to August Kreis III (The Aryan Nations National Director.) As you see nowhere can you find anything on this Jonathan Williams character as I said he was never even a member of the Aryan Nations just ask them or better yet just look back @ the last couple years of wikipedia & see what it always said.

THERE NEVER WAS NO SUCH MEMBER OF THE ARYAN NATIONS NAMED JONATHAN WILLIAMS. Williams has never even met Butler, Redfairin, Juba or Kreis, I know this as I am & have been a member of the Aryan Nations long before Jonathan Williams was even out of Diapers & personal friends with the Leader of the Aryan Nations....

I've got video tape & hundreds of pictures of everyone who was & is Aryan Nations, Kreis lived & Butler stayed @ Kreis house long after Butler gave up his throne, tell ya what pick up the phone & call the FBI or National Security, or ABC, CNN, etc, etc, & ask them who the leader of The Aryan Nations is & those who were closest to Butler & or it's leaders till they day they died.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/schuster.column/ &

http://www.rickross.com/reference/aryan/aryan45.html &

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/butler.asp &

http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_america_updates/groups/aryan_nations/aryan+nations_update_0502.htm


Quote: Until early March 2005, the Aryan Nations splinter faction had been led by Charles Juba in Ulysses, Pennsylvania, who moved the headquarters to Kansas City for unknown reasons. Shortly after relocation, Juba announced his resignation as both leader and member of the organization, naming August Kreis as his successor.


http://www.msnbc.com/news/927968.asp

http://www.bnainoach.com/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=101

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=37

http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=27

Sure there has been alot of confusion over who the Aryan Nations leader was after all the squabling but Butler was getting senile his last years that's why, hell Butler probably gave the Aryan Nations away to every nice kid he seen @ the grocery store "No Offense" but like I said he had already publically announced his prodecessors long before to the public media, on video tape & the net. And even if rest assured he did not give it to no 20 year old kid "he never met" over those who not only served him for years, but took care of him to the day he died. Redfairin Died, Juba resigned August B Kreis III has run it since end of story.

Ask this Jonathon Kid to see some pictures of him with Butler or Redfairin, Juba or Kreis....? I got Pictures of Kreis with all of em, not only at Gathering but @ each others house over 20 years, church, baptisms, family gatherings, rallys, TV shows, etc, etc. Kreis has been on Every TV News station there is "Youve seen him" ABC, CNN, CBS, he's been on Maury Povich, Jerry Spriger about 5 times & I quote "Jerry I got your mom in my trunk, she's a lampshade".......


Jonathon Williams is not only NOT the leader of the Aryan Nations but he was never even a member.

Williams never held any role in the AN & no one including the people butler lived with shortly before his death had ever even heard of this kid. Anyhow I am tired of explaing this, Jonathan Williams is not & was not @ anytime a member of the Aryan Nations. I have told & showed proof of more than anyone should ever need & the meens to verify.

http://www.aryan-nations.org/From_the_Desk/desk_of_james_wickstrom.htm

With that said please remove the twelvearyannations link from the site now, the only reason williams put it up there is to try & get notoriety & page rank for his new site.

[edit] Continue discussion

Please sign your comments, even if you choose a pseudonym. It makes it easier to track comments. An administrator has locked this page pending a discussion here. That usually takes about a week. I am not an administrator, just another editor trying to stop a revert war and asking for evidence. --Cberlet 13:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I have done much research on this matter, and to be honest, it looks as if they both may be legitimate. Butler gave 3 men charge of his organization in August 2004 before he died. Williams was one of them.
Everyone from every organization I have talked too says that Butler kicked Kreiss out of the organization years ago.
I say keep both websites listed. Without Butler standing here, who knows who is telling the truth. I know that ALL of the articles I am pulling up mention Williams and another man named Patterson as the leaders. The SPLC consider August Kreiss a ripoff of the legitimate Aryan Nations. Keep both, let neo-nazis decide whom may be legitimate.
The person above claiming to be in the Aryan Nations needs to answer one question....Why do groups I have recently talked to over this matter (White Revolution, Kingdom Identity, NSM, Knights of KKK ETC.) all say that Williams along with two other gentlemen took over as a Council upon Butler's death. These groups also claim that this Kreiss is not allowed at any of their meetings because he associates with non-whites. Just keep both, heck they are both legitimate on the level that they are both probably equally dangerous not to be informed about. --accuratehistory

[edit] The Real Aryan Nations

Please show me these articles where it says the Aryan Nations was left to three kids ?????


All depends who you talk to & where. Some people are ignorant or simply put don't know. Kreis was not only a member of the KKK for 14+ years but he was a leader. There are many different factions of white suprimacy groups including the KKK all of wich different bylaws, beliefs, etc. It don't matter who you ask, even in the same orginizations someones always going to give you a different answer, most don't know...


Butler gave the Aryan Nations to Redfairin years prior to him dying, there were press releases on this, Just look around you won't find any public announcements where Butler announced leaving it to 3 kids & you know why ? #1 because it never happened & #2 he had already given the Aryan Nations away to his predecesors.......

Williams made a post on Butlers site a few weeks after butler died saying this "Not the Aryan Nations site" acting like Butler said he was leaving the Aryan Nations to him & butlers "webmaster" aka Williams website friends. Butler was senial he did not even run the AN nomore don't you see how stupid that sounds...

Butler was senile with a growing case of Alzheimer's his last years "before he died". Williams was never even a member of the Aryan Nations heck he was only a 20 year old kid, he never met Butler nor did he ever hold any role in the Aryan Nations prior to that.. Williams is just telling storys & making things up to try & get people to beleive him, DON'T!!!!!!!

Butler had already named his predocessors years prior to his death "Redfairin, Juba & Kreis" heck the AN was already on it's 3rd leader @ the time of Butlers death. Sure you can say Butler kicked out Kreis but Butler was senile "Like I said" Butler could not even do that anyways as Kreis was already the leader.... Hell Butler lived with Kreis & stayed @ Kreis house just prior to his death, you don't even know the tip of the relation between Kreis & Butler of wich I'm not going to explain neither here or now, But like I said Butler was senile his last few years, Butler said & did alot of crazy stuff right before he died, that's why he gave his predocesors control (before he got senile) hell it was reported butler tried giving the Aryan Nations to some Gas Station attendant he thought was nice one day. Butler handed over his throne years before his death & his website as rewarded by the courts when sued, the new website was/is www.aryan-nations.org look it up, twelvearyannations was butlers personal site "Not the Aryan Nations Web Site".


Jonathan Williams was never even a member muchless the leader of the Aryan Nations............


Please show me these articles you read ? The only stuff that I've ever read were the bullshit ones Williams wrote on Butlers site after he died "Claiming butler left it to him & his webmaster" LMAO....


'Like I said' Call the FBI, call anyone who ain't been tampered by Williams if you don't beleive me,, Don't listen to what this 20 year old & handfull of followers say, Williams never even met butler muchless Redfeirin, Juba or the Aryan Nations current leader Kreis...........

[edit] Protected again

Please work out your differences here on the talk page, and don't forget to sign your comments by typing four tildes in a row (i.e. ~~~~). Otherwise nobody can tell who's said what on this page. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 19:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

We already discussed this look up, we already spoke to these twelve year guys outside of wikipedia & agreed to let them have there link on our page & not mess with the history nomore, this is someone else now. cberlet as you can see above is one of the vandals aswell, all I can recommend is banning them & cberlet or giving them a warning.

[edit] Aryan-Nations.org

We've left the page untouched for years, it's only just recently that these twelveyear imposters started deleting our history & our website link making up there own & replacing with theres.

The Aryan Nations has been around for a long time, this Jonathan Williams kid I will tell you was never even a member of the Aryan Nations muchless a pastor or senior pastor @ that, he made a response in the history of his new page on here the other day stating he was ordained prior to even joing the Aryan Nations wich is impossible as to be a Pastor of the Aryan Nations you have to study under & be Ordained by a Senior Pastor of the Aryan Nations. Just for referrance there are currently right now Junior Pastors right now that have been Aryan Nations members longer than this 20 year old Williams kid has even been alive . Jonathan Williams is a fraud as are his 2 followers.....

These 3 twelveyear Imposters are the ones who keep trying to change the page, trying to change the history of the Aryan Nations to what they want people to beleive in a rediculous plot to try & take over the Aryan Nations & to gain page rank for there new bogus website in an attempt to try & fool people into thinking they are us. Bold huh, well we are already in talks with the little punks but be advised what I write is correct, this twelveyear site they keep posting was not @ anytime the Aryan Nations real website, just go in google & type in Aryan Nations & see wich one is at the top of the page with many years seniority or call CNN, ABC, FBI, etc, etc & ask them the Aryan Nations real leader. These twelveyear punks only got there dirtly little grubs on late & 4 times succeeded Pastor Butler personal website after he died, That is the only little bit of legitamacy there is to these kids.


If there are any questions about the legitamacy of this article or this Williams kid or his 2 followers & you don't want to beleive me just do a search in google or even better yet contact the Aryan Nations leader August Kreis III I have already told to him about this. Please feel free to contact the National Director "Leader" of the Aryan Nations August Kreis III at http://www.aryan-nations.org his phone # is under the contact us page. 24.171.16.151 21:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors cannot pick sides in a faction fight, even among neofascists. We can report the exdistence of the factions,a nd provide details in an NPOV way.--Cberlet 23:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What sides, there's only one Aryan Nations & if you have any concers of who it is like I said just call the National Director, CNN, FBI, etc. These twelveyear aryan nations punks who just started saying they were aryan nations & changing our link to a link to there's just popped up a few months ago & they are imposters "not sides in a faction".

So what's the purpose in locking the page ? Or the purpose in wikipedia @ that if your not willing to find out the legality's ? We don't wanna have to keep changing the page everytime these frauds try to vandalize our page, you can block them but locking the page that says somethings wrong while you talk only to me everytime is gonna do what I don't understand ???

[edit] Aryan Nations in Pennsylvania

During the early and mid-1990's, Mark Thomas was the leader of the AN's Pennsylvania chapter and had a compound in Longswamp Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania. He was arrested on a federal indictment on January 30, 1997 and was charged with organizing seven Midwestern bank robberies and receiving stolen money from those robberies -- money which authorities said was then used to finance other Aryan Republican Army (ARA) operations and intended eventually to overthrow the US government. [1] An environmental cleanup was necessary for the site due to the long-term storage of chemicals.

[edit] MIPT Terrorism Database

Aliases: No known aliases Group: Aryan Nations (AN)

 Role: Leader
 Current Location: Sebring, Florida

Biography: August Kreis III was chosen by Charles Juba to be the National Director of their faction of the Aryan Nations when Juba stepped down in March 2005. Kreis is based out of Sebring Florida. http://www.tkb.org/KeyLeader.jsp?memID=6085

PETN 23:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Please place new comments at the bottom of talk pages. I've moved this one here. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 00:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] August Kreis III

Every one knows www.aryan-nations.org has been the Aryan Nations new website for the last 4 or 5 years since loosing the origional one in the lawsuit. That twelveyear site is a fraud. That twelveyear site was only Pastor Butlers old personal website after stepping down as the Aryan Nations leader some 8 years prior to his death.

Any Questions.....
















No questions. Your position is clear. Yet, there are still two entities claiming to be Aryan Nations. You can hold your breath until you turn blue, and that still will not change. Two factions. Wikipedia does not endorse factions in a split. --Cberlet 16:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
See, for example: [2], [3], [4]. --Cberlet 16:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

So I can call myself cberlet & you can put a link to me & my bogus website on your wiki page then aswell ????

[edit] Twelve year imposters

Yes there is a fake one calling themselves twelveyear aryan nations "not faction" the real aryan nations is aryan-nations.org. were working on the other fraud site & these 3 kids right now but you can't allow them to alter our history to there liking & to rewite wiki to there way of liking to make it sound like they have some kind of legitamacy.

There never was a split, 3 twelveyear imposters there "leader" was never even aryan nations members, one is a FBI informant & was kicked from the AN as a result of & the other was only a mail in member. Is wiki about facts & truths. I understand if you feel you must insist on mentioning em but you can't call them a "faction" when there never was one, matter of fact these kids did not even know Butler nor any of the Aryan Nations recent leaders. Aryan Nations is a orginization of tens of thousands of wich with ranks, membership id cards etc to even be a member none of these 3 are or ever were muchless pastors as to even be a pastor & to preech for the Aryan Nations you must be ordained by a Aryan Nations Pastor. They are a scam. If you want to mention em that's fine but do it as pirates or imposters not a "faction". Were trying to work this out without shedding any blood wiki is about facts & you have to let this page reflect as such & as it always did.

Like I said if you have any questions of the imposters please contact the National Director & current Leader of the Aryan Nations August B. Kreis III he will tell you everything if I am leaving anything out or you don't want to ask me. but rest assured we will not leave them on our page as they are a fraud & we will change everytime they add it everyday every hour we check this page. He already knows about this & will answer any questions.

Please sign your posts on talk pages, otherwise we have no way of knowing who's said what. There's an easy way to do this. Just type four tildes in a row (like this: ~~~~) and it will automatically fill out your username, time and datestamp etc. when you hit save. For instance, for me it looks like this: · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 02:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Still waiting a reply from Twelveyear imposters

Here you go. Aryan-nations.org has been falsely claiming the title Aryan Nations since before the death of the original founder of Aryan Nations (pastor Butler). Www.twelvearyannations.com has been and will continue to be the web-site of the true Aryan Nations, as which was left to us by Pastor Butler (R.I.P.)

The story basically goes like this; for a brief time Andrew Krine (aka August Kreis) was a member. He was dismissed after three major problems; 1.)He was discovered to be a drug addict, 2.)He insulted the secretary of the church, and finally 3.)His daughter claimed that he molested her.

Juba was the former leader of "aryan-nations" while Andrew controlled the web-site. Juba, after threats, resigned. Andrew/August then claimed the title. Andrew and his obese wife live in a trailer in South Carolina where they receive welfare thanks to there many misbehaven children. Andrew has a purple foot, diabetes, and too much time. All in all, Andrew's little group has no more than 6 members (all of whom are equally pathetic).

Aryan Nations is the political wing of the Church of Jesus Christ Christian. The three man council of Aryan Nations was approved by Pastor Butler before his death.

Check us out at, twelvearyannations.com, aryannationsrecords.com, aryanyouth.com, & anyac.4t.com

[edit] NPOV

As long as credible observers report there is a split in Aryan Nations, Wikipedia will not pick sides. That's what NPOV means in this situation.--Cberlet 21:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Williams Imposter

So you agree that the twelveyear imposters rewriting Aryan Nations history to something that's made up in there attempts to try & make people beleive something that did not happen "uncreditable" is wrong, great ?

And you have no problem with us correcting what they say when it's not credible not only through "credible observers" News, TV Media or announcements by Butler or the groups predocessors.

And that Jonathan Williams was never a Pastor nor member of the Aryan Nations. This 20 year old kid (Williams) would have had to been ordained by a Aryan Nations pastor of wich williams never did & even openly admits publicly... Furthermore you agree "you must" agree that Jonathan Williams name not be included anywhere on Wiki in reguards to our group, Aryan Nations as being a member or Pastor ?

Please remove this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Williams_%28pastor%29

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aryan_Nations"

[edit] NPOV

As long as credible observers report there is a split in Aryan Nations, Wikipedia will not pick sides. That's what NPOV means in this situation.--Cberlet 13:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


I am really sorry, I know some folks are annoyed, but many appear to have no idea what a "citation" is. A "citation" is not someone posting a photo and stating they "know" something is true. It means information drawn from and cited to an article published in an edited book, journal, magazine, newspaper, or website of a reputable organization. A number of such articles state that there is an ongoing factional struggle within Aryan Nations. I do not doubt that many such publications refer to Kreis as the leader of Aryan Nations. That is not being disputed. But other publications mention Williams as claiming to be the leader of Aryan Nations. Wikipedia does not pick sides in such disputes. Find a published article that mentions the factional split and declares Kreis is the legitimate leader, and that can be posted here on the discussion page and considered for inclusion. But until Williams drops his claim or is forced to abandon it through legal action, the continuing claims by Williams also would be mentioned on this Aryan Nations page on Wikipedia. --Cberlet 13:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Credible Observers ?
What is your definition of credible observers ? Are you a friend of this kid or something, there ain't even a single website about this kid muchless news articles or media & even if there was 1 website saying something is not deemed credible nor does it deem even notible.
You know the admins of this site agreed with us & voted then deleted the whole Jonathan Williams article he just made here a few days ago deeming non notible therefore your the only person who thinks he's notable & you have nothing. You must be a personal friend of this fraud your claims of "credible observers" is just that POV. There are no credible observers & you know it......

[edit] Jonathan Williams Article Deletion

Can you please unlock the Aryan Nations article now, I don't know if you locked & just forgot about this article or what but, we need to fix the article as there is stuff that fraudulent kid wrote that is not true & your still got his link on the page to his fraudulent site, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aryan_Nations&oldid=45007274 that is the last correct version before the Williams kid started vandalizing the article. Thanks 66.165.126.12

Wikipedia portrays all verifiable information from reliable sources, regardless of whether or not you believe this person is lying. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 04:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Yah but what about non notible "NN" wikipedia does not allow unverifiable inclusions in articles... Also the Jonathan Williams article was removed from wiki so besides wiki thinking he himself is non notible you now have a bad link locked in the Aryan Nations article. 66.165.108.25 11:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
He may not have been notable enough for his own article, but he's certainly relevant enough to this article to bear mentioning. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 12:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Sure mentioning, but allowing it to say he is a member of Aryan Nations or a pastor @ that come on & even letting a link to his bogus site. Also you have a bad link on there, [Jonathan Williams] does not work so you know. 216.15.134.64 18:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article does obviously not have a neutral point of view - it is clearly negative towards AN. Even though most people don't like Aryan Nations and what they stand for, encyclopedia articles ought to have a neutral point of view no matter the subject. --Aqwis 15:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it not NPOV? WP:NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves the iBook of the Revolution 09:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I checked the text, and there was a problem. AN was described as "white nationalist," when most scholars call it "white supremacist." I fixed the problem. Now it is more NPOV.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/r/y/Talk%7EAryan_Nations_0162.html"