Talk:Arya

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Care is needed that this doesn't develop into a pov fork of Arya. The scope of this article should be to discuss the meaning of Sanskrit arya in Hinduism/Buddhism. Nazi stuff and ethnic interpretations belong on Arya. dab (ᛏ) 06:40, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Adding this article is a great idea. Do you mean a "POV fork of Aryan"? Nazi stuff should be confined to Aryan and Aryan race for sure, but I think it's reasonable to included discussion of the Vedic peoples and Iranian peoples here, as sources of the Sanskrit term "Arya", as long as it does not become the principal content of the article. Some overlap between articles is surely not a problem. Paul B 15:26, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it is unfortunately not always clear what belongs in which article. I think there is a lot of information that is specific primarly to the Sanskrit term Arya and that should be put in an "Arya" article, and not necessarly in the more general Aryan article, that also discusses linguistic and ethnical/racial uses of the word. But unfortunately there's also a lot of information that could belong to both articles (Aryan or Arya). Aryan has three main meanings, a religious/spiritual, a linguistic, and an ethnical/racial meaning), and some of these interpretaions could belong to both articles. (Probably, there should also be a section on Avestan/Iranian meanings of "Arya" in the Arya article. However, in the Avesta Aryan seems to be spelled as airyanem [airyana] or airyanãm [airya].)
Obviously, the Arya article should include information that is specifically related to the Sanskrit term Arya, especially Hindu, Buddhist and Jain uses and meanings of the word.
Maybe the Arya article should also include the information that refers specifically to the "Vedic Aryans", i.e. the Aryas of the Rig Veda and later texts. The ethnical interpretations in the Arya article refers specifically to the "Vedic Aryans" or Aryas of India, but they could also be put in the Aryan article because (more general) racial connotations (of Indo-Europeans generally) are already discussed there. Thus maybe it is better if the ethnical interpretations would be merged with the Aryan article, so they would be in only one instead of two articles. So I think it is not not easy to decide if such information (on ethnical interpretations of the Aryas) should belong to the Arya article (which already discusses the Vedic Aryans) or to the Aryan article (which already discusses racial connotations), but I wouldn't object to merge such information in one single article, if it should be necessary. --Machaon 12:11, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you think that the "ethnical" information should be merged into one single article, that would be ok with me. I placed it in this article, because this article concerns itself more with the Vedic Aryans and the Aryas of India. The Aryan article is, I think, generally more focussed on Indo-European topics, including IE-languages, while the AIT article is more focussed on the origin and age of Vedic culture than on "racial" interpretations of the term Arya. But I think that "Arya" should be more than just a redirect, especially information regarding Hindu, Buddhist, Jain and Zorastrian uses and meanings of the word, that would be too detailed for the Aryan article, could be further elaborated in more detail in a "Sanksrit" Arya article. Regards, --Machaon 15:35, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well - having now read this article, I see that the great majority of it seems to be taken up with debate about such matters as the hair-colour and skin-colour of the Vedic Aryas. Surely the whole point of this was to discuss the spiritual and social meaning of Arya, rather than the issue of race. Most of these speculations should be in the Aryan race page. I think it's reasonble to have a section on the Vedic Arya, but not all this stuff, especially when the likes of Talageri are quoted as authorities! I'm a little confused by this sentence placed in the intro "It means "master, lord" or can refer to any Vaishya." My understanding is that it refers - in this usage - to anyone who is "twice born", that is, to anyone who is a Vaishya or above in the Varna system. Is that what is meant? Paul B 16:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If it should be moved to Aryan race, it should be taken care not to suggest that the ancient aryas had a conception of "Race" that is similar to the modern usage of the word. As I noted above, if it should make more sense to include it in the article Aryan, Aryan race (or AIT), I wouldn't object to such a move, although I don't think it would be entirely wrong to have it in this article. So if someone considers that it should belong to one of these articles, please move it there. Regarding Talageri, I only cited him in this sentence: "According to Talageri (2000) "the particular Vedic Aryans of the Rigveda were one section among these Purus, who called themselves Bharatas." Thus, it is possible that at one point of time, Arya did refer to a specific tribe.", and I don't know why you consider him as a "bad" authority. I don't know his works very well, but his suggestion about the rigvedic Aryans being primarly a term that did refer in the Rigveda to one section among the Bharatas is I think noteworthy, even if others may come to different conclusions. As to the reference to Vashya, I think that Arya refers to the three upper castes, but this is only according to some Smritis, and not according to the Vedic texts (Srutis). I think the meaning of Arya as "master, lord" should be explained in more detail, because I think this meaning is much less well known than the meaning of Arya as "noble". Regards, --Machaon 17:52, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)


within Indian culture the meaning of arya changed over time too. In the Rigveda it still means "one of ours", and also "stranger", as in "stranger, but a possible guest, one of our tribe", as opposed to "Dasa scum". In Hinduism, it took on social tones, I don't know the details of that, but this is what the article should be about, arya as a social term in India. Today, the Indians are heavily influenced by the Western/Nazi/19th century ideas of "Aryan", and they all feel compelled to explain stuff about hair and eye colour. This should go on Aryan race. This article should focus on arya in Indian texts, in which ones does it refer to the upper castes, in which ones to the Vaishya caste etc. I.e. we need some genuine scholarship here, giving references to the differences among native texts, and not sweeping statements about hair colour. "master, lord, one of the Vaishyas" btw is Monier-William's dictionary definition. dab (ᛏ) 19:22, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The "sweeping" statement on hair color is according to Michael Witzel, and is cited in the book "Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia" and in a book review by Elst on this book: "Reference to fair hair would certainly qualify, but according to Michael Witzel, there is in Sanskrit literature exactly "one 'goldhaired' (hiranyakeshin) person that is not a god, the author of HShS", i.e. the Hiranyakeshin-Shrauta-Sûtra named after him. (p.390, emphasis in the original)" Cited from a book review by Koenraad Elst titled: "A review of the Aryan invasion arguments in J. Bronkhorst and M.M. Deshpande: Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia" [1]. Regards, --Machaon 19:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Exactly! Witzel is not smrti, and he is talking about Aryans, and about the Aryan invasion. This article, on the other hand, is about the word arya in Sanskrit. The Aryan racea article may in part be based on things related here, but this article should not include post-smrti stuff. Let's be very clear on how we divide the material:
  • Aryan: use of the term in English (PIE, Indo-Iranian, racialist theories)
  • Aryan race: racialist theories and their basis (or lack of) in genetic research.
  • Aryan invasion: suggested migration of a prehistoric people. Should be renamed to the more neutral and modern, and less inflammatory, Indo-Iranian migration.
  • Arya: The Sanskrit word, as used in Vedic texts, other shruti, smrti, and in modern Hinduism. I'm not sure if hair colour is even an issue in these texts. Discussion of references to hair colour in ancient texts should be discussed on Aryan race, or Aryan invasion, as long as it is not related to the native concept of arya.
This article is not about a people or a race, it is about a concept of social stratification in Hindu culture. dab (ᛏ) 20:08, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree to move the relevant material to one of these articles. (see also my above comments) Unfortunately I don't think it is 100 percent correct to have it in "Aryan Race", because this could suggest that the Vedic Aryans had a concept of "race" rather than something like tribe or religious affiliation, which would be maybe at least slightly pov. However, it may be the best solution. Probably it shouldn't be moved to AIT, because this article's focus is mainly on the origin and age of vedic culture and migrations and also this article is already very long. I'm not sure if should be moved to Aryan or to Aryan Race. Since I think you and Paul suggest to move it to Aryan Race, it should be moved there. If nobody else moves the text, I will do so in about one hour. The suggestion to move the Aryan Invasion theory article to Indo-Iranian migration is a good idea. It would be less pov than AIT or IUT (Indian Urheimat Theory) and should maybe be discussed on the AIT talk page. Regards, --Machaon 20:38, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

which text exactly are we talking about here? The hair/eye colour stuff? Maybe it should be moved and verified/npoved. It is certainly alright to say that there is only that single reference to "golden hair", but to go on about what Indian tradition doesn't tell us too much may be problematic, and may just sound unnecessarily defensive and/or agenda-encumbered (of course it's silly to suggest the Aryans were blond. Nobody except some crazy Nazis even believes that, so it is misleading to use it as an argument against Indo-Iranian migration, and it is useless as an argument against Nazi race theory, too, since that was based on different assumptions altogether) dab (ᛏ) 20:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Lack of Zoroastrian info

This page looks like its totally a Hindu page, with a hindu template..why is there no Zoroastrian template? POV of contributers? --Kash 00:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Arya is also a Persian term meaning noble (as well as a common first name). SouthernComfort 11:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
There was no Zoroastrian template because nobody created one. I now did Template:Zoroastrianism. I don't think it is pov of the contributors, just that more Zoroastrian editors are needed on wiki. --Machaon 11:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Great job with the Zoroastrian template! Keep it up!! deeptrivia (talk) 06:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aren't Shudras considered to be a part of the Arya fold?

According to Dr. Ambedkar's book Who were the Shudras, Shudras are to be considered as a part of the traditional fold. Can someone confirm this and make the changes to the article?

Well unlike the "untouchables" they are casted, but not "twice born". Paul B 13:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ARYA IS ORIGINALLY AN ARAMAIC WORD

The word arya is earliest derived from the Aramaic/Assyrian word for "Arya" which means "Lion" as the lion was depicted as being the most highly respected animal in the persian empire thus leading to the modern definition for Arya due to alot of influence by the Aramaic words. It is not originally of Indo-Iranian origin but mainly of Semitic.

This is a distinctly idiosyncratic view to say the least. What is your source? According to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, the Aramaic 'ariy (Lion) is derived from the Hebrew 'aryeh, from the root 'arah. Paul B 15:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Hebrew actually derived off Aramaic and is a form just like Assyrian. iLLeSt 19:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes the Aramaic language was introduced into the Persian language, the source "Additionally, many words were introduced from neighboring languages, including Aramaic and Greek in earlier times, and later Arabic and to a lesser extent Turkish." Wikipedia, Persian Language Aramaic-Assyrian Animals
Wikipedia articles are not sources. Anyway, this is not a source for this specific claim. Yes, Hebrew does not have priority over Aramaic, but that does not make Hebrew derived from it. Your other source provides no evidence whatever of the derivation you claim. Please sign your posts. Paul B 10:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Hebrew is a dialect of Aramaic (Western), however that is not the point, the word Arya in my language Assyrian (Neo-Aramaic) means Lion and through history the Persians like their Assyrian neighbours depicted the Lion very honorable even as a God see Lamassu. Persians borrowed many words off their neighbours and in this instance "Arya" & it has thought largely to be that it derived from Aramaic. This should be included in this article. iLLeSt 22:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be included if it were thought true by anyone other than Assyrian nationalists. No evidence is given that any professional linguist has taken this view. It makes little sense, since the earliest recorded I-I use of Arya has no obvious connection with "lion". Hebrew is a version of Canaanite, which is a Semitic language like Aramaic, but neither has some sort of claim of priority over the other. Paul B 13:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
It is also mentioned Adrian Gilbert's book Signs in the Sky.
This should be placed in the article that Arya had thought to be earliest derived from a Semitic language & in many cases Aramaic meaning the word "Lion" symbolizing its pride and honor. Source - Iranian.com iLLeSt 17:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

the Indo-European root ar- has nothing whatsoever to do with the Assyrian word for "lion". dab (ᛏ) 10:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you read the sources that you had edited off instead of jumping to conclusions
Source - Iranian.com
Signs in the Sky.
and I also did mention that it has got to do with the Aramaic language not the Assyrian word specifically, even the word "Ar" comes in Aramaic too. iLLeSt 01:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I have of course looked at your urls. adriangilbert.co.uk has "cranky crank" written all over it, so I don't suppose you are serious by suggesting we use it as a "source". The iranian.com link is some online opinion piece, apparently quite reasonable, but it doesn't, of course, even mention "lion" or "aryan", so I don't see what you want with it. dab (ᛏ) 16:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You have to have a reliable source. Some non-accredited website about astrology isn't one. We can't say that words derive from one another just because they sound similar, otherwise we could claim what ever antecedents for words we liked! Paul B 16:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The sources aren't about astrology, they talk about how the word got into the Persian language. Anyway, the Aramaic & Persian words for Arya are EXACTLY the same & it should be included in Arya that it has THOUGHT to have been from Semitic Aramaic origin as alot of sources show that Persians had adopted Aramaic into their language not only about the whole Lion business. Aramaic was also before Farsi/Parsi and Sanskrit aswell. iLLeSt 13:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is about astrology. He is connecting the Lion concept to the constellation of Leo as part of a loopy theory about a Secret Brotherhood of Esoteric Adepts in Anatolia at the time of Jesus. Fantastic stuff. The other link makes no mention of Lions, as has already been pointed out. Paul B 08:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
That isnt the point I am trying to make, I already made it clear that it should be included in Arya that it has THOUGHT to have been from Semitic Aramaic origin as alot of sources show that Persians had adopted Aramaic into their language not only about the whole Lion business. iLLeSt 19:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
And it has also been pointed out that you need a reliable source for the claim that that has been thought to be the case by smeone of note in the relevant field. Paul B 09:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I had already pointed out that the sources from Iranian.com show proof that the Aramaic language played a major influence. This is a source known well know and is pretty obvious aswell!
Anyhow I am adding this piece to the text:
The word Arya in the Semitic-Aramaic language means Lion (Syriac = ܐܟܵܪܐ Arya) (which was highly respected by the ancient noble Persians & Neighbouring Assyrians as they considered it to be a Master) which was probably thought to have been borrowed by the Persians as sources & theories show that Aramaic played a huge influence in the Persian language hence giving us the modern definition for Arya.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.130.35.168 (talk • contribs).
pure Original Research. Yes, Persian was influenced by Semitic. So what? It's not like arya is only attested in Persian. What do you mean by "was probably thought"? Less passive constructions, more citations, please. If you want to argue about Semitic substratal influence on Old Persian, pray do so on the Old Persian article, not here. dab (ᛏ) 10:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that this is the only word being attested in Persian but instead, I would like to place it under the "Derived Words" heading to show emphasis to how the word was brought into meaning. I'm only saying that it is a theory and is just 1 of the words that could have been borrowed by the Persians (not to mention had been backed up by sources such as the Encyclopedia Iranica to prove that Aramaic played an influence on the Persian language). There is no harm in placing it in the article in any matter so please do not erase it. Sorry if it has caused any dispute. iLLeSt 20:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
well, there is "harm" in just pulling claims out of thin air. I grant you that Aramaic had an influence on Persian, enough of that. Your idea that the word arya is in any way "derived" from Semitic needs a reference, because, if you kindly read our article here, and over at Aryan, linguists don't think so. dab (ᛏ) 10:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I've already shown that the word for lion in aramaic is Arya as you can see in this link -> Arya (Lion, in Akkadian aria, in Aramaic arya (II Samuel 17:10), and you had just told me that Aramaic had an influence on Persian so what more is there to tell? Why shouldnt it be posted in the article that another theory of the whereabouts of the word "Arya" derived from Aramaic. Its all obvious to me! iLLeSt 19:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
because it is your theory. I have in front of me Mayrhofer, the standard work on Indo-Iranian etymology, and your idea isn't even mentioned. We could conceivable do an article about the Semitic word, in which case there would need to be a link from Arya (disambiguation). Mayrhofer does mention mistaken etymologies, such as a connection with Latin arare or Irish aire, but yours isn't even mistaken, it is just amateurish. Look, it is very simple: If you cite an etymological dictionary (or journal article) that contains your suggestion we'll mention it. If you don't, we won't. This is how wikipedia works, and you are perfectly within your rights to request citations for statements you find dubitable yourself. dab (ᛏ) 10:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have created Ari (lion), which is linked from Arya (disambiguation). Being a mere dictionary entry, the stub should however be transwikied to wiktionary. dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


Lots of words sound similar. I could say that the English word "airier" (meaning more airy) is related to Arya. After all "airier" might be construed as "more spiritual", which is related to one of the well-attested meanings of Arya! Obviously, it's absurd, but the problem with your theory is similar. Arya is attested in Vedic Sanskrit, which had no known historical contact with Aramaic. The Vedic attestation is close to the meaning of the word as used by Zarathushtra in the Gathas. Neither has any intelligable link to the meaning "lion" and both probably long predate any historical contacts between Iranian languages and Aramaic. The "good" source you cite is concerned with Aramaic influence during the period of the Persian empire - when Semitic languages were extensively used in diplomatic contexts and became the "official" languages of parts of the empire. Obviously you would expect some vocabulary to be imported at this period. But the word "Arya" already existed. The fact that it sounds similar to a word for lion is no more important than the existence of other similar-sounding words in unrelated languages. Paul B 10:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I know there are heaps of words relating to the term "Arya" but these theories are different from what I am trying to prove out. Arya was used way before the Iranians adopted it because Arya had been used frequently by the Arameans whom were the people that spoke Aramaic before the Persian language came into existence. It should be mentioned in THIS article that the word dates back before it was defined in Farsi and Sanskrit because the definitions are somehow related to eachother. Alot of words used by the Arameans use AR-. The english word "airier" has nothing to do with the ancient times.
The word "Arya" means to be pure and sometimes also means to be of Caucasian complexion in the word "Aryan". The Persians, Medes, Assyrians & Armenians had all originated in the Caucasus mountains but as they immigrated to the east and south, they had settled in their lands which goes to prove that their ancestors were the true Aryans. iLLeSt 22:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
what you don't seem to get is that Wikipedia is not for original research. If you publish this idea of yours in some linguistic journal, we can mention it here. Before you do that, we won't. dab (ᛏ) 12:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] ETYMOLOGY OF HONORIFIC -JI

Etymology of honorific -ji as evolving from ārya is mentioned ("In Pāli and other Prakrits, ārya developed various forms such as ariya, ayya, ajja, and aje. The last of these gave rise to the honorific term -ji, which is used following a proper name, for example in Gandhiji".) What are supporting arguments? Bibliographical information is needed. Otherwise the statement hangs as it were in void Artur Karp 09:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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