Talk:Arwen

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why should the reader "see Radagast"? -TomCerul

Oops, I think I was confusing Radagast with Glorfindel. --Ed
  • After almost four weeks travelling, Frodo was increasingly ill from his injury sustained on Weathertop. Strider was still leading the way to Rivendell by a less trodden route. Sam, Merry and Pippin were weary, disheartened and becoming increasingly concerned for Frodo. Suddenly the party hears an approaching horse, with relief the Elf-lord Glorfindel arrives, sent to guide the party to Rivendell by Elrond. Glorfindel gave Frodo his horse to carry him. After a further two days march which took them to the ford of Bruinen where the Black riders were waiting in ambush, Frodo is taken at great speed over the Ford whilst the remaining party stays to ward off the Black Riders. Frodo's last sight was of Ellrond's and Gandalf's magic, making the waters rise, washing away the black riders. [1]

Contents

[edit] Fate of the Half-Elven

Vicki, didn't Arwen give up her elvish immortality to marry Aragorn? Is that romantic or what? (smile) Ed Poor

Ah, maybe this is intentional, but Arwen translates to "noble lady", so the translation is incomplete. netcrusher88

In the movie, she did give up her immortality to marry Strider, but in the books, there is no reference to such a sacrifice. Shouldn't this be noted in the article? Please correct me if I'm wrong (provide reference, please). —Frecklefoot 15:32, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Actually, she did in the books as well [2]. I didn't recall this either. --Mrwojo 16:50, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If anyone is still wondering, this is the sort of thing that is understood from context. I can't remember if it is explicitly stated anywhere in LotR, but in parallel to the story of Beren and Lúthien, if Arwen wants to marry Aragorn, she must give up her immortality. (Which might, I suppose, be preferable to spending an eternity separated from him after his death. If they are both mortal, then whatever happens next happens to both of them.) --Aranel 19:32, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It is explicitly stated in the appendices that the children of Elrond were counted as Elves, until Elrond left: then they had to chose to remain, and become mortal, or leave with him, and become Elves. Arwen stayed behind, Elrond, Elladan, Elrohir left. [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 07:24, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I cannot find any such statement in the annex. In fact, before Elessar passes away he asks Arwen to take a ship to the West. She declines, saying that there are no more ships sailing westwards. I.e. she seems to have missed something. After Elessars death, Legolas is reported to build a grey ship and sail away to the West together with Gimli. Shouldn't they have offered Arwen a lift? --Johannes Rohr 20:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Arwen dies of sadness from losing Aragorn; when he dies the light of the Valar leaves her eyes and then she goes to die at Lothlorien. In contrast, Luthien becomes mortal when she rescues Beren from death. She deliberately dies to save him, and after convincing Mandos to return Beren to life, Beren and Luthien are both returned to life as mortals. Tolkien does not express a steadfast rule about this (though the characters might), except that the half-elven get to choose if they are immortal or mortal, if they go to the Undying Lands or if they leave the world as mortals do. There is much ambiguity about this aspect of them in Lord of the Rings, but I don't know if Unfinished Tales or somewhere else clarifies things. oneismany 17:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The whole idea that Arwen can peddle away her mortality seems to me mistaken at best and contrived at worst. Elrond's words in Appendix A(v) are thoroughly unclear: Arwen will live while he is around, he does say, but his remark on what happens when he leaves is NOT that she will die if she stays, merely that she will come with him or stay. The idea that his leaving engenders her death does not make sense; it is never explicit, and any implication of it is roundabout. Her death is from sadness at loss, not from any choice she has made regarding her proximity to her father. Sighter Goliant 03:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The information on Arwen being a descendent of all three High Kings (Finwë, Ingwë, Olwë and Elwë) comes from The Peoples of Middle-earth and is something that Tolkien actually claimed, although you have to kind of play with it to get the connection to Ingwë (through Indis). I would really like to add something in the second section about the original idea among fans being that we thought they thought Arwen had to have a bigger role to avoid appearing sexist (because they had to have more "strong female characters"), but I'm not sure if that's actually true, or if it's just what we thought we-back-when. (Although, if it's in any way true, the irony...) --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:37, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Certainly some fans felt that Arwen should have had a bigger rôle, but not all of them. I for one still feel that replacing Glorfindel with Arwen was wrong, and Arwen became too powerful (Arwen called the flood, Arwen withstood Angmar, etc.).
As for Arwen's descent from all High Kings: she is of course also descended from the Sindarin King Elwë Singollo ("Thingol"), and Melian of the folk of the Maiar. But so is Aragorn (by a more remote way). [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 07:24, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
??? I wasn't talking about fans who thought Arwen should have a bigger role. I was talking about fans thinking that the filmmakers thought Arwen should have a bigger role. (And I was definitely involved with many long discussions on the subject at the time.) And I wasn't imply that Aragorn couldn't also claim the same descent - it's just more direct to explain Arwen's. (Since you can still say things like "great-great-grandmother"".) --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 13:50, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ah, okay. The problem with elliptic speak! :) [[User:Anárion|Image:Anarion.png]] 14:20, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The actual translation of her name is "noble maiden" not "noble laidy"

[edit] who Lúthien 'defeted'

Lúthien did rescue Beren from Melcor(Morgoth) .Read The Lay Of Beren and Lúthien in The Silmarillion. User:HopefullGomer, 12 July 2005

When, exactly? The rescue from Sauron more dramatic and unambiguous. I agree that Beren would have gotten in serious trouble without Lúthien to put Morgoth to sleep, but I wouldn't say that she "rescues" him there, since they are working together. Anyway, she doesn't "defeat" Morgoth; she just temporarily inconveniences him. Sauron, on the other hand, she defeats so resoundingly that he has to give up his physical form and give over the keys to his fortress. -Aranel ("Sarah") 02:32, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

okay, i didn't think about that time. i guess the time with Sauron was a lot more spectacular. i always did like that part in the book:) HopefullGomer 14:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that she did not defeat Sauron either; it was rather Huan who did it.--Galadh 07:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments for and Against the changes

I pruned these sections down a bit but they probably should be reduced much more if not eliminated entirely. As presently constituted, they are original research. Even if a source could be found for them, I doubt it would justify devoting such a substantial portion of the article to them. I can think of no sources other than blogs and message boards, which probably should not be cited at all. I think it is encyclopedic to have comprehensive coverage of the ways that the film differs from the book. It is also encyclopedia to include mainstream reviews (i.e. probably not things which are published only on the internet), official commentary (i.e. from the DVD version), and anything that Liv Tyler or someone connected to Tolkien's estate has said about the changes. Arguments for and against the changes are non-encyclopedic. NPOV does not mean one POV half of the time and another POV the other half of the time. In fact, I'm going to take another look at it right now. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


Well, "In addition to making Arwen a strong character" is also POV because some readers, like me, don't see Film Arwen as a "strong character". Maybe "a more visible character"? - changed.

Also, " Arwen had a very small role in the books outside of the Appendix." is contradicted by "...she plays a role in the plot which is disproportionate to the number of scenes in which she appears." Well, nobody's arguing that Film Arwen was more visible...

So all the arguments on Legolas's age and hair color and whether Balrogs have wings should go too?

And Arwen having her fate bound to the Ring is a legitmate gripe because it wasn't in the book, and is Jackson cruft (or crap). "Cruft" is a curious word... If she died of "grief" in the appendix, it was in wholly different circumstances.

203.215.117.196 12:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to "an example of Girl Power, such as Guinevere in King Arthur" for several reasons.

1) The phrasing was stylistically awkward, poorly constructed. (Which everyone is guilty of from time to time.)

2) King Arthur was not a remake of anything; it was an attempt to put the theories of folklorist Linda Malcor to the screen in a dramatic context. (Those theories regard the idea of Arthur and his knights as Sarmatians; AFAIK, warrior women don't really enter into it.) Therefore, it was not a "change made in the original story" - there really isn't any one original Arthurian story, especially not that one can cling to if one wants to make a film actually set circa 500 CE. Most early Arthurian texts have a sort of fantastic high-medieval setting (that is, contemporary to their composition, but with fantasy elements).

3) There is a modern fictional tradition of making Guinevere a warrior based on historical Celtic models and the roles and mores associated with generic "Celtic Queenship," and an accompanying scholarly trend towards seeing a possible historical Guinevere in this light. In most tribes this would have meant the right to take lovers freely, and the duty to lead armies in battle a la Boudicca, among other things. You can make some argument as to whether or not this is historically probable... it might be for a Pict, as Guinevere is portrayed in that film; it probably wouldn't be for the Romanized British nobility of the actual period. The idea that Guinevere must have been a Pict is also a theory of Norma Lorre Goodrich's from her supposedly-nonfiction book Guinevere, which is held in almost no scholarly esteem (don't believe me? Ask around on the Arthurnet mailing list, where you can talk to all the people who write all the nonfiction books currently in print.) In King Arthur, the crypto-Pict tribe are called the Woads and are a sort of generalized blend of several different tribes and fantasy elements, but the Picts are probably the closest historical analogue to the Woads.

For those reasons, I'm not sure that it's appropriate to say that the whole Guinevere-as-archer thing is merely a representation of "Girl Power" marketing. It's more in line with most fictional presentations of the character in the last 25 years, and with some scholarship related to Celtic women. But, anyway, a terrible movie. LOTR was obviously much better, and the changes in Arwen's character were obviously made for the reasons suggested here: economy of character and the chance to give her something to do and make her more immediately compelling/heroic.

[edit] Name

I don't think that it is necessary to mention the similarity of the Names Arwen, Morwen and Urwen because -wen is the Quenya word for maiden, and occurs in many female names. -- Galadh 08:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Bryan 13:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Name

I have a small Elvish "dictionary" in the back of my copy of The Silmarillion; it says that, while -wen does indeed mean "maiden," it translates ar- to "tears." Wouldn't that make Arwen literally mean "maiden of tears?" Perhaps I'm horribly off, I am by no means fluent in Elvish; but it seems that something like that would make sense... Undomiel 06:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Undomiel. I'm guessing you are referring to the entry under 'ar-', "cf. also (Nirnaeth) Arnoediad '(Tears) without reckoning'.". In that construction the 'Tears' part is actually from 'Nirnaeth'... just as Niniel ('Tear Maiden') and Nienor ('Mourning') in the preceding index draw on the same root. The 'ar' in 'arnoediad' means 'beyond'... tears 'beyond' number. The 'ar' used in Arwen's name is actually from the next entry, 'ar(a)- = high, noble, royal...'. --CBDunkerson 22:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elves or Edain?

In the section Arwen in the Books it now says "Still, only two other marriages between humans and Eldar are recorded in Tolkien's stories". I think the former version with "between Man and Elf" would be better; firstly because it would be easier to understand for people who are not that familiar with Tolkien's universe, and secondly because this could cause the misconception that there were other marriages between Avari and Men. --Galadh 06:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The 'three unions' thing is a messy concept. The 'Eldar' bit gets brought in to exclude the Silvan elf Mithrellas's marriage to a mortal (the line of Dol Amroth) from the three count, but there are other problems. Both Arwen and Elros were half-elves who chose mortality and married mortals... yet Arwen's marriage is counted as one of the 'three unions' while Elros's is not. The only difference on which to hang a distinction is that Arwen had lived a couple thousand years 'as an elf' before choosing mortality while Elros did so earlier in his life. Yet that runs into potential trouble with Dior (first of the half-elven) and his marriage early in life to an elf... why is that not a 'fourth union'? Luthien had actually become mortal by the time she had Dior, but was still accounted an 'elf' for purposes of the 'three unions' and him being half-elven. Et cetera. An unambiguous way of stating it might be, 'three unions of someone accounted a 'high elf' and a mortal'. For whatever reason Luthien and Arwen were considered 'high-elves (Eldar) who became mortals' rather than simply as mortals like Elros. --CBDunkerson 11:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Nevertheless I still don't clearly understand the argument. As a Silvan Elf, wouldn't Mithrellas be an Eldar as well, so that there were four marriages of Eldar and Men? I would agree to your suggestion, using the term 'high-elf'. (As far as I know the high-elves were the Calaquendi, not all the Eldar) --Galadh 15:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The term 'Eldar' originally referred to 'all Elves', but was later primarily used as a term for the Sindar and the Elves of Aman. The Nandor and Avari (and the Silvan elves primarily descended from those two groups) were thus not, in later usage, 'Eldar'. This is similar to the way that 'Edain' originally referred to all humans, but later only to the houses of the elf-friends. --CBDunkerson 00:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, aren't High Elves not those who have seen the light of the trees? Bryan 18:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Heh, this is all gets exceedingly convoluted when the various drafts are taken into account... but the Sindar are sometimes included amongst the High Elves / Eldar. In any case the usual definition of 'High Elves' was those who had returned to Middle-earth from Aman and their descendants, which would include all of those involved in the 'three unions' since Thingol was the one non-Noldor who had done so (making Luthien a 'High Elf' under this definition even if the Sindar in general were not so accounted). --CBDunkerson 19:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
According to the articles Elf (Middle-earth) and Silvan Elves the Silvan Elves were actually Eldar.
Again, the terminology shifted over time. See Appendix F.I; "The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien...". --CBDunkerson 22:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I now changed it to High-Elves, which seems to be the best solution no matter which version of the legendarium we consider as canon.--Galadh 18:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures removed

The two images used in this article were deleted. See page history here and here. Carcharoth 17:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why? Scorpionman 20:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Love Triangle sagas

I was just wondering if anyone else noticed the remarkable similarity of the love triangle involving Arwen, Aragorn and Eowyn of Lord of the Rings, and Siegfried, Brunhild and Kriemhild of the Nibelungenlied saga? Tolkien is said to have drawn much inspiration from the Norse sagas (particularly Nibelungenlied), so do you think it's worth mentioning in the article? JJ

There are always countless similarities between stories... dozens of other 'love triangles' could also be mentioned. However, in this case none of them would be correct in so far as Tolkien's 'motivations' were concerned. As originally written Tolkien had planned for Aragorn to marry Eowyn... there was no Arwen in the books at all until the black ships were coming up the river and the folk of Gondor despairing - and then suddenly the banner of the King, woven by Elrond's daughter, was displayed on the lead ship. In short, the book was almost completely finished before Tolkien created the character of Arwen... which is why there is alot more about her in the appendixes than in the book itself. Rather than rewriting the whole story Tolkien left it mostly as it was with a few minor adjustments, but he didn't set out to write a 'love triangle'. He just came up with a new character late in the story and changed his mind about who Aragorn should marry. :] --CBD 01:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Understandable. It's just that with the Nibelungenlied being what many call the most influential saga on Tolkien's writing (as it includes an enchanted ring, an army of ghosts and a "return of a king" so to speak), I happened to notice a profound similarity between the characters of Eowyn and Kriemhild, Aragorn and Siegfried and Arwen and Brunnhilde, particularly in their roles in the narrative and their relations to one another. However, the information on Tolkien's creation of Arwen is very interesting. JJ

Tolkien once wrote, of comparisons between his work and the Niebelungenlied, that both rings were round... and there the similarity ended. :] --CBD 18:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, sometimes writers can be a bit dismissive when they don't want their work compared to previous ones, especially so as to prevent accusations of plagiarism. For example, JK Rowling is exactly the same when people try to draw comparisons between Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings. JJ

[edit] half-status

If Elrond's children (with 3/16 mortal ancestry) were "half-elven" with the option to become Men, then were the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur (with 5/16 immortal ancestry) also half-castes with the option to become Elves? For how many generations? One would suppose that when the twins chose definitively to be one or the other, and married within their chosen kind, that was the end of ambiguity. But when you're the Author you don't have to make sense. —Tamfang 01:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, Elros' choice doomed all his descendants to mortality, though they all had long lives. "Half-elf" is indeed used less than literally for anyone other than Eärendil. Uthanc 02:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Dior's parents were both mortal, so perhaps he was mortal too; that would make his children, and Elwing's children, literally half-elven. Supporting evidence for this concept is that Dior lived only 32 years (Timeline of Arda); according to Laws and Customs among the Eldar, Elves reach maturity about age 50. —Tamfang 05:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arwen's multiple Telerin descents

May be inserted if it's thought relevant. —Tamfang 02:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Elwë
 
 
 
 Elmo
 
 
 
 Olwë
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Galadhon
 
 
 
 Eärwen
Lúthien
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Galathil
 
 Celeborn
 
 Galadriel
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Dior
 
 Nimloth
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Elwing
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Elrond
 
 Celebrían
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen

[edit] Middle-Eastern origin of the name Arwen?

J. R. R. Tolkien was a philoligist first and foremost. His ability to read multitudinous languages (living and dead) is well known. He drew plots and names from his many readings. I suspect that I may have finally recognized his inspiration for the name "Arwen."

In Edward Fitzgerald's "translation" (1st edition) of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, a quatrain referring to Khayyam's natal horoscope reads thus:

    "I tell thee this -- When starting from the Goal,
     Over the shoulder of the Flaming Foal
     Of Heaven, Parwín and Mushtarí they flung
     In my predestined plot of Dust and Soul."

In the accompanying horoscope, the sun (Flaming Foal of Heaven) has just risen and, following next, in order, are Venus and Mercury, giving the indication that the names Parwín and Mushtarí apply to Venus and Mercury (Mushtarí is very nearly the phonetic equivalent of this planet's current name).

While Venus is often known as the Morning Star, it is better known as the Evening Star. It is diffcult to escape the ease with which the combination of "Parwín" and "Evening Star" can merge into "Arwen Evenstar."

The above seems to be a reasonable argument for a Persian origin to the name of one of Tolkien's characters.

Makuabob 15:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Past tense used in fictional articles

According to guides like Check your fiction, fictional articles should be written in past tense, as it distinguishes between real-life events, and fictional events. I'd like to go through this article right now, but I can't, and feel someone more aquaintanced with the LotR series might be able to do this better. Just though I should let people know. Disinclination 00:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:The Lord of the Rings/Archive 03#In universe style. LOTR is (part of) a fictional history of Earth, and Tolkien deliberately wrote it that way; "Conversely, discussion of history is usually written in the past tense and thus 'fictional history' may be presented in that way as well" (Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles). It's also the WikiProject policy for Tolkien articles. Uthanc 09:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 63 times removed

Is 63 times removed mentioned or derivable from official texts? I thought that we don't have an actual number of Lords of Andúnië? The Lords of Andúnië claims there are 18, and the article seems to claim it as canon rather than an estimate based on the number of generations for the Kings of Númenor. – Pedantic79 (talk) 05:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

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