Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Internet troll squads

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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'VE CLEANED YOUR "COLLECTIVE MESS" AT VOTING SECTION, AND NOW YOU'RE WELCOME TO FORMAT AND EXPAND YOUR COMMENTS HERE Ukrained 15:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] A

This page also derives from a series of incivil edits on User talk:Biophys#Vlad. This article was created in essence to accuse several editors, including administrator User:Alex Bakharev of editing on behalf of the KGB. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 05:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

    • Comment While I respect you as an administrator, there is nothing on the article that accuses any editors of editing on behalf of the "KGB" (in actuality, it's the FSB, but that's another story). That is extremely unfair to accuse him of saying that, as I was the one who made those comments, whereas he only wrote an article about internet troll squads. As well, I would like to point out that no one is mentioned in the article, so I feel like that you are really being judgmental.CPTGbr 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B

Just a side comment. I think that comments and opinions like this one: Talk:Federal_Security_Service_of_the_Russian_Federation#Infiltration undermine credibility of Wikipedia. That was one of the reasons I have created this article. I think such questions must be openly debated. That is Wikipedia policy to openly debate any problems (but of course without personal offences). That is why I made this notice: "KGB trolls in Wikipedia?" If we delete this article now, then what this anonymous user and other people could think? They (not me!) will think: "Yes, of course, those KGB trolls could not tolerate such article in Wikipedia." Sorry, but they will think so. Biophys 17:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] C

(*Speedy delete this original research. Let me politely ask our Polish friends to leave Russia-articles to the responsibility of Russian editors. I presume the latter know more about Russia than the former. --Ghirla -трёп- 14:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

    • Comment I am strongly against such a proposal. This is a Wikipedia for everybody, and IMHO non-Russian editors are very welcome to edit Russia-related articles, which would help to make them more neutral. Often their contributions are more useful than those by Russian (or Belarusian, or Ukrainian) wikipedians, and it is often not the case that they know less about Russia than Russian wikipedians. And certainly there is nothing inherently Russian in ability to identify original research etc. Neutral As to the nomination, the nominator himself seems biased, as he sees there a personal attack against Putin which is clearly not the case. There is only one mention of Putin in this article as a third party. And the article is not an original research. It is based on sources. Their reliability seems dubious, yes, but they exist, so the nomination misses the point. Colchicum 02:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
      • After more than two years in the project, I may tell you that no Russian editor can edit Poland-related articles in English Wikipedia without facing some sort of harrassment. I assure you that I'm not the only one who was driven from English Wikipedia by a gang of Polish editors and their allies from neighbouring countries. Let's hope that the same standards will eventually be applied to Polish-related and Russia-related articles. Currently this is not the case. --Ghirla -трёп- 06:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I think this is not "Russian subject" at all. It is enough to look at the Categories where this article belong. The sources are "Polish" and "Russian", but the article is not.Biophys 20:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
      • The problem is the approach of certain editors towards the Russian topics with an exclusive POV-pushing attitude. This is demonstrated by a sudden coordinated entry of three votes which seems organized by off-wiki canvassing a lot. --Irpen 20:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply to the criticism. I have made a number of changes to correct the shortcomings of this article. According to Wikipedia rules, deletion of an article is not to be decided by a majority vote. The criterion is consistency with Wikipedia rules and policies. I insist that everything is appropriate here (although the article should be improved). (1) This article was marked for deletion as allegedly inconsistent with WP:OR. Right now, it is clearly consistent. All major claims are supported by multiple reliable sources. OR means original research by a Wikipedia editor. Citing original research made and published by other people is fine. (2) It was claimed that the article was designed to mount a personal attack against certain editors. Obviously, it is not. It does not include (and never included) any names or even hints on Wikipedia editors. (3) The title of this article was criticized as "ORish". Of course, everyone is welcome to suggest a better name. This name appeared as a result of my personal translation from Russian. I prefer this name for two reasons. First, this can not be simply called "disinformation", although disinformation and astroturfing is certainly is a part of this phenomenon. Second, I tried to keep this name as general as possible, because it well might be that secret services of other countries are involved in similar activities (so, this might be not solely "Russian" phenomenon). Finally, I would like to ask you to take a second look at the article and reconsider you opinion if appropriate. Thank you. P.S. This is certainly a very interesting and notable subject that belongs to many Wikipedia categories and attracted attention of many good editors. Biophys 18:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
    • No way you can justify anything under this title with whatever sources you brought up. --Irpen 20:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
      • So, what title would you suggest?Biophys 20:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
        • See my suggestions above. Although I have to say that wrong title is no reason for deletion - the WP:RM should have been carried instead of WP:AFD.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
          • First, I could remove word "troll" from everywhere in the article, including title, if it helps (I thought this subject is actually related to Troll (Internet)). Something close to your title would probably be fine if the article is not deleted.Biophys 22:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Note. Please, see how author of the article - Biophys in question covers his real goal of making the article here diff. Vlad fedorov 08:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply. I deleted this text on my personal talk page since it was interpreted as a personal attack (made by CPTGbr) by some editors. Please tell me if the deletion of this text was wrong, and I will restore it immediately. I am a relatively new user here. Biophys 14:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] D

  • Strong Delete as WP:OR and possible attack page. We have enough "conspiracy" pages to deal with already, let's not repeat the same mistakes. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 13:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC))
  • Thank you! Thank you all for your participation and discussion of my article. This helped to improve it a lot. It was nominated for deletion as WP:OR. Now it is not OR and based on multiple sources. This is obvious from the current list of references. No one of this discussion participants challenged the reliability of any specific references on any reasonable grounds. Most of you criticized the title. Great. Then let's rename it as "Internet teams of Russian state security services" (almost as suggested by Pyotrus). I have made the corresponding changes in the text, but I do want want to move the article during AfD discussion. If you disagree with such title, let's mark this article as WP:RM and discuss a better title. Finally, the AfD nominator believed that the article is "an attack page against Putin". Obviously, it is not, since there is only one mention of Putin in this article as a third party.Biophys 14:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion Review

I have requested a review of the decision to delete the article. The whole review page may take a minute to load because there are disputes on other decisions there. ilgiz 07:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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