Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Encyclopædia Dramatica (3rd nomination)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

[edit] Editing the complaint after posting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_headline.png Is it standard for the criteria that the deletion request is based on to be edited again and again AFTER voting begins? That seems a bit crazy. rootology 22:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

No reason not too so long as the time on the signature corresponds to the updates. (→Netscott) 22:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
What is official policy on this? It seems disengenuous as people will already have voted one way or the other. For example, if a vote is going against what is desired by the vote-maker, he can "game the system" by making it sound more heinous after the fact to try to sway things. Not saying you did this out of maliciousness, but I am concerned. rootology 22:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
By all means make a post on WP:AN about this. If ever I had doubts about modifying the reasoning aftewards I wouldn't have done so. (→Netscott) 22:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ed is "mean, attack, etc."

Just because ED is mean and obnoxious does not make an article ABOUT it the same. The WP article about it does not show favor or endorsement to the information and humor style on ED; t only describes it. In essence, we have a NPOV-secure article about a controversial subject. We should be applauding, not deleting. These aren't good reasons to exclude an article's subject. Karwynn (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

See Ku Klux Klan, Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden, concentration camp, rape, murder, terrorism, torture. Karwynn (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
All of those topics have been covered extensively in independent reliable sources, too. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

If everyone agrees to a "delete" consensus based on votes I will agree. However, I want to be sure that if the vote is keep or no consensus, that no admin will take it upon themselves to delete. Note extreme hostility, possible retaliatory nature of this deletion request:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#How_to_report_abusive_admin_editing.3F_.2F_updated_with_details

Thanks! rootology 01:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the policy if any for renomination of an article after it has successfully passed a deletion vote? Is there any amount of time that it must be excluded for renominations? Or can people repeatedly relist immediately? Thanks, curious. rootology 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
There's no hard and fast policy, although it's discouraged. If it survived this round, a new nom would almost certainly be speedy kept. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The closing admin doesnt actually decide based purely on the vote number, but on the arguement's presented. Usually they will obey consensus, but they don't have to technically. Cheers -- Banes 01:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I am concerned that given the hostile nature of an attack on one admin that spawned this, that there is no way to get a "fair shake" now. What recourse exists (if hypothetically it came to that)? Just submit for undeletion? Never been through all this before so I'm not sure. rootology 01:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
deletion review is available, but your mileage may vary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I was just going to say that. If an article is deleted it is never "gone". They can always be brought back, and, while I'd like to see this one go, it is likely to stay. You are free to report and admin you believe has abused their powers, there are plenty of places to do this, and, if this article is deleted unfairly, it will be restored. -- Banes 01:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I saw some people reporting the admin and I saw them being reverted. Hardvice 13:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Where, for what article? What admin? rootology 13:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I spotted one in the history of this AFD article. I looked up the user and I see banned. I looked up the banner's contributions and I saw a record started of users they banned for such complaining and there were more than one, complaints all over the place. Hardvice 13:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Wonder why.--MONGO 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Folks if a Wikipedia admin is being attacked and trolled as it appears was happening when this version of Encyclopædia damatica was online (note the now deleted image of the front page of the site featuring User:MONGO) it's normal that those who are doing the attacking and trolling (particularly accounts that were socks meant to do so) are blocked and banned. All of that falls into Wikipedia's policies. (→Netscott) 13:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, no problem with that. I'm curious if any policy exists however on admins editing complaints about themselves? Just curious, I'm still learning some of this as I go. Seems kind of conflict of interest? rootology 13:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
While the image should have been reverted, there was nothing technically wrong with the deletion. Scores of other abuses of power are evident, but not concerning the image. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The revisionism is amazing here. The image was the only issue, and the page was not attacking anyone. Since the image was deleted rather than reverted to a non-attack image, we have no way of showing who was actually doing the attacking. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Attributing 'revisionism' to other editors in a justifiable disagreement is extremely unproductive and unlikely to resolve the conflict with mutual respect - as it implies a motive to disinform.
And in this instance (where you are claiming that since the image's content isn't available now there's no way to know who was attacking whom) your use of that term is a really stunning achievement in unintentional irony. Such an idea is the very 'root' of revisionism. An admin here suffered off- and on-wiki personal attacks as a direct result of his 'be bold' policy. The image's status does not retroactively eliminate that fact.
Jeff, as an erstwhile admin admin you should be at least as concerned with maintaining WP:AGF and protecting the integrity of a fellow user (MONGO) as you appear to be with protecting a vanity site. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll assume good faith and believe that you haven't seen this unfold over the last three days. He suffered attacks that probably weren't warranted at the time in an off-wiki article. His handling of the situation on-wiki isn't excused by it, as understandible as his reaction may be on a symapthetic scale. The fact that those of us who lack certain powers cannot see who uploaded the image in question certainly affects the facts - instead of pointing out exactly who the "attackers" were, everyone who may be tangentically associated with the site, regardless of their actual record or history, are being painted as such. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
If I were an admin, which I'm not, I wouldn't be throwing my administrative weight around to affect the outcome of this article. MONGO's integrity may be lauded in other areas (I've never encountered him prior to this flap, to my knowledge), but his multiple violations of basic policy and guideline regarding page protection, editing, and good faith to other editors has been noted. As for "protecting a vanity website," I don't consider this page vanity, and I believe that it barely skirts the guidelines for web inclusion, guidelines that are way too strict anyway. I do not appreciate that sort of judgement regarding my motives. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Then you know how it feels to be called a 'revisionist'. Bearing in mind that you don't appreciate judgments regarding your motives, please don't disparage others' motives with terms like 'revisionism'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I'm not judging anyone's motives by calling them revisionist. I'm stating that the presentation of the situation reeks of it. Motives are an entirely different beast which I haven't touched upon on this talk page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid we disagree about that. By the definition of the word itself, you cannot call someone a 'revisionist' and not be implying a motive. I'll suggest again that you try other vocabulary to resolve the conflict. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should just drop it, then. Your suggestions are noted, but unnecessary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
They are only unnecessary if you choose to continue to employ derogatory terms in your ostensible assumption of good faith. In any case, I've informed you of the derogatory nature of the term, and the irony of your application in this instance. The rest is up to you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you feel it was right for MONGO to lock the article as an admin and THEN edit it, refusing access to any further edits, after the image vandalism? If so, why? Thanks! rootology 19:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
EDIT: Also, what under policy supported his doing that post-lock edit where he removed the link to ED? rootology 19:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Look folks in rare cases the "ignore all rules" logic applies. Encyclopædia damatica had a main page attack on User:MONGO on display when he made his edits. The freaking site has been showing his personal details, name, phone number, etc. Let it go already! (→Netscott) 20:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
So because he decided to overreact, we'll just let it slide since, you kno, we can ignore rules if we see fit. I'd hope we wouldn't stand for that. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Are we to suppose that by your comments such behavior on the part of ED is acceptable? (→Netscott) 20:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I certainly suppose that. As an adminstrator at ED, bdj could have edited the main page to, at the very least, remove private, personal details. He wonders why I won't email him with my real email address? Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no proof or evidence that at the time of this that bdj was an admin at ED. This has been rehashed endlessly by you and is disingenuous. Please don't troll. rootology 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no doubt in anyones mind that bdj is an adminstrator at ED. He failed his RFA partially due to it, and did not deny such then, except to say that he didn't really edit the site anymore. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You said he is now. Proove that. rootology 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
User:Badlydrawnjeff "I am a lapsed, inactive admin at Encyclopædia damatica" Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
OK. Does that make him responsible for any and all content on an outside website then? Also, again, for better or worse, what content is featured on a 3rd party should have no bearing on the relevance, right to exist, nor content of a WP article. See my Smoking Gun example below. If that site put up EVERY single piece of public-record information for all staff and corporate/foundation info for WP, does that mean that this site no longer is valid to exist within WP or as a link from WP? If we deslist that, do we censure the other pages that pick up the story? If the NY Times reports on the Smoking Gun getting censured, do we censure the NY Times article? Chain reaction of bad decisions based on silly and irrelevant emotional kneejerk responses. If you can counter any of these points, you're welcome to. Beyond that this is starting to feel an awful like "They got MONGO, he's our boy! Let's get 'em!" rootology 21:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't respond to hypotheticals. I meerly state as fact that badlydrawnjeff could have solved the front page on encyclopedia damatica and chose not to. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
reply on new line please for clarity--my long thing is a reply to you to continue discussion. rootology 20:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

(moving to new line since the old is getting cluttered, response to existing conversation)

For what it is worth, why does what appears on an outside website excuse anything that happens for behavior "on" Wikipedia? I'm not saying its right to put his personal data up, but the ED site is not the ED article (and that personal data for better or worse is a legal public record--that's from a WHOIS lookup, apparently). The ED article linked to a 3rd party site no different than how Wikitruth does. All valid and fine within the bounds of WP. Some troll put an offensive reference to MONGO up on the ED article in response to a satirical lambast of him over on the ED site. Not advocating right or wrong, just saying what happened. In response, MONGO starts banning people, locks the ED article on WP, and removes the link to the ED site from the ED article *AFTER* he locked the article. Bias, and against policy. Yes, rules can be thrown out, as they can be the long term basis of setting precedent/being a new policy. But he did this also (later stated) under the guise that the ED *article* was an attack article, and that anyone who contributed to a WP article was a "troll" and should be "perma-banned". I said it before, MONGO should have completely recused himself from this entire mess from the VERY beginning. If I was an admin and someone torched me on ED, slashdot, kurishin, etc., I would have no business getting into 1) edit wars; 2) using my admin powers on that issue. At all. It's wrong. There are 900+ admins. He couldn't get someone non-biased?

For that matter, if Slashdot or Boing Boing tomorrow runs an article flagrantly torching Wikipedia itself, Jimbo Wales, or Netscott, or rootology, or MONGO, would it be appropriate for that user to go in, and begin editing the article about that outside site, and REMOVE the links from WP to it? If you say "no", then why was it appropriate in this case with the ED article? Is it because of ED's reputation? Should that even matter? Why should any one instance be considered 'different'? Bad, bad, behavior. 20:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

When Wikipedia starts to be used in the furtherance of an attack there is a very serious problem. I won't be the judge of what MONGO did as being right or wrong but I'll tell you what given the fact that someone added an image of the front page showing MONGO to this article makes his subsequent response extremely understandable. (→Netscott) 20:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question. Let me rephrase in simple terms. Is it right to remove to a link from an article about a subject TO that subject, if someone is offended? rootology 21:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
And I'll repeat my response: Wikipedia being used in the furtherance of an attack is very wrong. The question of offense isn't even valid... we're talking about the guy's personal information (which opens him up for harrassment)... I now agree with User:Tony Sidaway... it doesn't really make sense for Wikipedia to be having articles about Daniel Brandt and Wikitruth, etc. as there is a clear conflict of interest for those editing on such articles. (→Netscott) 21:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
ONE image acted as an attack. ONE. And no one who edits the article has shown any tolerance for attacks on other editors in the article, or tolerance of attacks on other people in the article. One image does not mean that an admin has the right or responsibility to completely ignore multiple policies and guidelines in response, period. As for me, I've never kept my association with ED a secret, and I, to my knowledge, have never been involved in any of the nasty stuff that sometimes goes on there, nor have I used the ED page to attack anyone, nor have I edited the ED page with any sort of agenda. I don't get involved with that sort of stuff on either side of it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Netscott. Wikipedia should ALWAYS attempt to evaluate actions and errors on the side of protecting an individual's privacy. While authoritarians may be unable to understand the true meaning of 'Fuck process' and 'ignore all rules', that doesn't them invalid, especially in an instance like this. Such concepts (while anti-authoritarian) are core principles, and part of 'doing the right thing' in this community. And at this point, relentless and continued sniping at MONGO in direct avoidance of the validating circumstances of his actions (suffering serious on- and off-wiki personal attacks) seems to me to be little more than trolling. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Reply to both of you (Netscott and RyanF): Before this I had nothing to do with ED, the ED article, MONGO, or Hypocrite. I edited stuff about my one started project and random articles here and there, helping out. I found this mess and tried to help and got dragged in by lots of inflammatory stuff. I *STRONGLY* disagree that articles on subjects that are critical in any way of WP should BE covered. Not having equal and fair coverage of your critics is wrong. It turns you into a one-sided, half-true thing. In regards to privacy of MONGO and all that: I agree, furtherance of an attack via WP is wrong. But again! If an OUTSIDE SOURCE slams WP in some form, removing links to that is EVEN MORE WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS IT'S INSANE.
EDIT: controversial, even anti-wiki things SHOULD be covered if of note. Horrible typo...!
(PURELY HYPOTHETICAL) If the New York Times tomorrow drops an expose bomb of magnitude about WP or the WP Foundation, does that not get covered in Wikinews? Does the NY Times article in WP get censured?
I am also in full support of an individual's privacy. But, again, if an outside side provides all the contact information for Jimmy Wales, things that can be found be ten minutes' searching of publically accessible records, does that article get delisted, removed, or censured from WP? If the Smoking Gun puts up personal records or internal records of something to do with WP someday, do we censure the Smoking Gun article? That is my concern. WP should not be playing any role in policing 3rd party sites' content. Linking to them should not be changed based on this. rootology 21:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The article's notability (which has not increased as a result of this planned attack on a WP admin's identity) makes it a valid case for deletion, imho. The abuse leveled at MONGO doesn't make it notable enough to keep, and shouldn't. It's a non-encyclopedic-entity. An article in the NYTimes (which in fact is a reputable source) is a whole lot different than ED, a site that few of us knew about before these attacks (and which remains non-notable). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The notability of the article is on the same level of MANY other website articles on WP, and in fact more in many cases. I think an extensive review of either the web notability policy is required, or I suspect if a legitimate "delete" concensus is reached, that a great many less notable articles may be coming up for AfD with the standards you and others are trying to reaffirm here. I saw probably a couple hundred at the least just surfing WP the other night. AfD votes will be backed up a bit I think unless notability reqs are reassessed. NOTE: That would not be retaliation. That would be following "rules". Of course... if concensus is "keep" or "non concensus", the article will remain as is standard, correct? rootology 21:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Review WP:POINT. You've just given the cannonical example. Congratulations! Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Really? So I shouldn't nominate an article for deletion if I find one that qualifies for deletion? Except if its... ED? If I find one, why shouldn't I submit it? If I find five, why not? If I find that there are serious problems with many articles, hypothetically, to the tune of thousands, why not submit them? It's better to leave WP in a weaker state? Or perhaps if I find that the majority of web-based articles on sites don't meet notability reqs, perhaps the problem is actually with the reqs? What do you think? rootology 21:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
RyanFreisling is correct. Unfortunately amongst those who are Wiki editors (which is an infintesimally small amount of the World's population) ED has some notoriety but the moment you step out of the Wiki-sub culture... and say, "Encyclopædia damatica" to the average person they're going to respond with... oh wow... an Encyclopædia about plays and acting... sounds interesting. (→Netscott) 21:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia stuff is a small minority at best of ED content. It looks like almost of it is actually Livejournal. rootology 21:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Your statement is even more supportive of the non-notable arguement.... a site that lambasts primarily LiveJournal... <sarcasm>that's real big on the radar</sarcasm>. (→Netscott) 21:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Ten million users isn't notable? Are you high? rootology 21:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you have trouble following logic? I said a site the lambasts LiveJournal. (→Netscott) 21:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, please observe WP:NPA. Try to conduct this conversation without implying someone you disagree with is on drugs or otherwise unentitled to their opinion. ED simply isn't notable enough to keep, and it certainly won't become so by attacking private citizens who edit on Wikipedia. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Apologies, I misread that completely from him. However... I *am* concerned that if a keep or no concensus vote is reached that an admin may pull the trigger anyway. Would that be wrong? rootology 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
An article whose content is verifiable from reliable sources, and which unequivocally and again from reliable sources demonstrates the significance of its subject, is in no real danger. Very occasionally there are issues with biographies of living individuals, but not with most articles. So, if you are really relaly concerned with keeping this, go out and get some citations from reliable secondary sources. Otherwise there are no guarantees - the closing admin is well within their rights to work on the balance of arguments presented, by reference to policy, and entirely ignore the numerical count and any amount of argufying. And really we would not want it any other way. Just zis Guy you know? 21:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Rootology, AfDs aren't about "votes" but about discussion. If your concern is founded on a "vote" it's misplaced. (→Netscott) 21:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing?

Does anyone see any way to close this that won't just result in a deletion review? I fear that a DRV would end up being a pointless duplication of the Afd. I suppose we could immediately start trying to work toward a consensus on how to close this, but then that discussion would simply become a pointless duplication of the Afd. Is there any hope of a useful outcome? Friday (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Some admin closing this who has not voted here and has nothing to do with this mess would be a good start. --Conti|✉ 21:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
AfDs oridinarily have to run their course... As I recall they take 5 or 7 days. Afterwards the closing admin(s) looks at the general consensus and the arguments provided and makes a decision for whether or not an article is kept. If it ends up on DRV it'll just be the natural course of events. (→Netscott) 21:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
(ec) I know how Afds usually go, but I find it hard to believe that a few more days will result in any more relevant points being made. However I suppose an early close on such a popular Afd would be an unpopular move. I'll admit I've been slightly tempted a few times already to just go ahead and close it as a delete, on the simple basis that WP:V is a key policy. But I suppose there's little reason to hurry. Friday (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I would disagree with that reasoning per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published and dubious sources in articles about themselves. --Conti|✉ 22:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I do not intend to use DRV assuming the closing admin either sides with me or gives a substantial explanation for their reasoning that does not ignore the WP:V and WP:OR issues raised by numerous delete supporters. I would also note, that like page protection, AFD is not a vote on the content of the article in any form, and even if the article by some infantesimal chance survives this process, it is imperitive that it folow each and every single one of our policies - from WP:BLP to WP:NOR. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I think an early closing would be a very bad idea, and provide gratuitous extra fodder for ill will from anyone who disagreed with the decision, whichever way it goes. I hope those asking for speedy closing would consider that our task is not only to arrive at the correct decision, but to do so in a way that tends to minimize heat and static.

It would also be very good if, before the closing, we can get the discussion away from all the red herring side-issues, like people going on about whether ED attacks Wikipedia, and if we should or shouldn't delete it based on that. I think the central issue really is the matter of independent reliable sources, and the AfD should be closed based on whether those can be provided, and whether the article, when its content is limited to what can be sourced, is anything more than a sub-stub. I'm pretty sure those sources don't exist beyond Alexa and the Domain registry, but I would be quite happy to be proven wrong. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New vanity note on closing by Netscott

Commentary on this new addition by him? Which part of the policy states that those editors's votes should be excluded? I don't see that specifically unless I'm not understanding some line in there. rootology 23:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

"Vanity information is considered to be any information that was placed in any Wikipedia article that might create an apparent conflict of interest, meaning any material that presents the appearance of being intended to in any way promote the personal notoriety of the author, or one of the close family members or associates of the author." from Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines. That most certainly is applicable in this case and although the logic does not apply to "the author" it does apply to the authors' website. (→Netscott) 23:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for clarification. rootology 23:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] attack page

"lately the article has become a bit of an attack page" -- This sounds like opinion. Please cite. rootology 23:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

This version that originally showed a screenshot of ED when User:MONGO was on the mainpage. That's when it "lately" was an attack article. Even badlydrawnjeff agreed with that above. (→Netscott) 23:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
That was the image that was edited in by a troll that was banned by MONGO. Beyond that, it's been basically the same article for relative ages. rootology 23:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Right, and as non-notable and unverifiable as ever. (→Netscott) 23:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I didn't agree with that. I agreed that the image was an attack. The page itself has never been an attack page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
So let's see... if the image is displayed on the page, then through simple logic does the page not take on enough attack characteristics to be labeled as such? That image seriously had undue weight and dominated the article. It's true that the article is not an "attack article" now but with the image it had displayed and a link to the site leading to a main page article that personally attacked and harassed User:MONGO the description "attack article" is plausible. (→Netscott) 01:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No, actually, especially given the history of the image. A simple image reversion and the problem is solved. The page itself was never used as an attack. The description is entirely invalid. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Bottom line: attack page problem was solved long before this AfD. Which means it was nominated as a retalitory action. Karwynn (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
To be fair to MONGO on this particular point, he didn't nominate it, and I see nothing to indicate that Netscott nominated it as a retailiation for MONGO in particular, but rather the incorrect perception that it was ever an attack page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vanity section

I can assure you that my owning of an ED account has not in any way influenced my opinion in this debate. --Merovingian (T, C, @) 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarity here: "Vanity information is considered to be any information that was placed in any Wikipedia article that might create an apparent conflict of interest, meaning any material that presents the appearance of being intended to in any way promote the personal notoriety of the author, or one of the close family members or associates of the author." from Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines. That most certainly is applicable in this case and although the logic does not apply to "the authors" it does apply to the authors' (ED editors') website. (→Netscott) 00:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

So you may want to actually point out where this vanity would apply with each of these people. After all, we're not seeing any lists of people who've shown support for MONGO's plight, since they could just as easily be construed as having ulterior motives. I wouldn't do that, because that's not how we should be doing things. I hope you'd agree. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The vanity guideline speaks for itself. This notice is just secondary to the other valid reasons for this article's deletion. It provides the closing admins with a fuller picture relative to this whole AfD. (→Netscott) 00:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Their votes cannot be safely disregarded by following the vanity guideline. By the same token, absolutely no one would ever be able to nominate or vote on a Wikipedia AFD (not that we'd want to). Sure, letting us know the fuller picture is a help, but claiming that their comments should be ignored is incorrect. - Hahnchen 00:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, further evidence of systemic bias. This is all rooted in retaliation for what the site the article in question is about did to MONGO the admin. rootology 00:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, we'll let the closing admin(s) make the judgement call. In all honesty since User:Badlydrawnjeff is mentioning him, User:MONGO's delete vote should likely be disregarded as well. If not disregarded then certainly the weight such expressed views carry should not be equivalent to other un-involved parties. (→Netscott) 00:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
True. Perhaps in fairness however, all comments should be counted evenly with full weight. As MONGO is a popular admin, there may be intentional or unintentional bias in many 'delete' votes here, just as their is percieved bias on the keep side. Perhaps given the circumstances *NO* admin vote should carry anymore weight than an 'editor' vote. Treat all arguments presented with even merit only. To be fair. rootology 01:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
That's a bit difficult given that those who are going to be evaluating the AfD are themselves admins here. (→Netscott) 01:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, now that you've moved it here, there's nothing obvious to point out that there's valid protest about it. Perhaps move the whole section over here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The disclaimer is fair. (→Netscott) 01:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Jeff. This is unfair. Netscoot are you an admin? this is further bias/impartiality claims. I propose in this unique situation that a fair vote and review by regular admins is impossible. If they can't do an impartial analysis based on the extenuating circumstances, by this admission, perhaps this AfD should be immediately tabled and suspended pending a higher level review. By your statement it would be impossible for this article to get a fair admin "shake". I believe this could be in order. rootology 01:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just moved the disclaimer to the top of the section. It's the first thing read now. (→Netscott) 01:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The disclaimer says absolutely nothing about what the discussion entails, about how insanely biased your selective choosing on who should be discounted is, about the protest of the weighting altogether, or anything. To remove any critical discussion but keep your original, flawed premise is deplorable. And no, adjusting the disclaimer doesn't fix it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Nothing's been removed... it's all right here. If you have valid concerns about the propriety of views expressed by others and have something to back up your concerns then by all means start a section. (→Netscott) 01:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yup, just convieniently out of sight, except for the part you added. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, how should that section be reworded for neutral point of view then? (→Netscott) 01:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It should have either been moved over here, or the discussion kept there. Actually, it should have never been put there in the first place, but I'll allow myself to get reeled in again and assume it was a-okay. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
In view of your concerns and User:Hahnchen's concerns I'm going to alter the wording. (→Netscott) 02:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You still don't seem to get it, but I'll take what I can get. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone's not "getting it" here... but the fact that there are so many folks who are editors/admins over on Encyclopædia damatica contributing to this debate should be duly noted. (→Netscott) 02:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but look at how you're framing it. Look at how you moved discussion out of sight when people called you on it. Look how you didn't bother mentioning all the people rushing to MONGO's side regardless of the facts. Need I continue? No one here denies their involvement, and many of us, such as myself, have been up front about it. Your actions make it appear that you'd like us as marginalized as possible, and it's horribly transparent to anyone who bothers to come over this way, which they'd have to since you unilaterally decided our opinions weren't worthy of front page consideration.--badlydrawnjeff talk 02:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Having the section become filled with talk would give it undue weight. What's funny is that the same folks with an ED account who are arguing that User:MONGO should not have utilized his admin abilities relative to the Encyclopædia damatica article due to a conflict of interest don't seem to be able to apply such logic to themselves in that those individuals shouldn't be particpating in the AfD about the article of the site they're involved in. Strange how that is. (→Netscott) 02:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely incredible. You're now equating gross abuse of power by an admin due to his personal vendetta with your poor interpretation of a vanity guideline, and trying to defend it with some "undue weight" provision. Man, why am I even bothering with you? --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
As I imagine you know, no one "owns" any particular page on Wikipedia. Therefore edit as your conscience sees fit. (→Netscott) 02:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd much rather see you do the right thing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, hmm I would like to see you do the right thing (see you properly recuse yourself voluntarily and remove your corresponding commentary) but from the conviction we're putting into this debate it doesn't appear as either of us is going to change our tack. (→Netscott) 03:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
There's no reason for me to recuse myself. Your allegations that I'm acting out of vanity are completely unfounded and without merit. You, on the other hand, have not shown any good faith through this entire process, proven time and time again. What else can we expect? --badlydrawnjeff talk 10:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Badlydrawnjeff, you keep talking as though it's bad that I'm demonstrating that there indeed is a conflict of interest on the part of ED editors being involved with this AfD. Might I suggest you peruse the conflict of interest article? If you're not familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest" that artilce should rather enlighten you and hopefully you'll better understand that I'm not making accusations but just stating facts. (→Netscott) 14:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that you end the condescending attitude as if I'm not understanding you. Point it out, go right ahead. Your moving of any protests or commentary away to the talk page, and your now hiding of it under a "conflicts of interest here!" style banner simply make it seem like any discussion to the contrary doesn't matter. Falls right in line with everything else you've assumed since you started this AfD, from the faulty reasoning to the bad faith you've shown to other editors from the beginning. Want to allege a conflict of interest? Be my guest, but don't attempt to minimize those who feel differently. You already have, and that's disappointing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Netscott has still failed to make any specific, individual claims of vanity. Besides, I don't see anyone on the keep sides saying "keep because ED is awesome", but I see plenty of people saying "delete because they've got an article about me too :-(" or delete because this site is mean and obnoxious". Make no mistake: this AfD is about ED itself, not its Wikipedia article. Karwynn (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair review may be difficult?

Netscott said that an impartial, "fair" admin review may be difficult as I requested in the Vanity Section. I propose in these extenuating circumstances it may well be impossible. Move that this AfD be tabled pending higher than admin level review. I hate to be a pain but given how heated some admins and friends of MONGO are over the 3rd party site attack on him, and how insanely fierce EVERYONE is on every little point, that there is no way to get a clean unbiased review here. Perhaps if no higher than admin level review can be done that this whole AfD should be tabled for a set amount of time of plus one month, at which point a new one can be opened. rootology 01:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair review is unllikely to be possible regardless of how this closes at this point, kept or deleted. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I'm being included in the "friends" of User:MONGO but feel free to follow my contributions you'll find rather minimal contact between us. (→Netscott) 01:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
That makes you look worse. You are not an admin, but you act like you have the power of one (i.e. blanking talk page comments). You take actions for someone without communication. You have no ED article, but you act like you have one. Sock puppet? Hardvice 03:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
That is my whole point, I'm not motivated by hate of that site... Encyclopædia damatica is genuinely non-notable, it's article is composed of unverifiable text of an original research nature edited by ED editors demonstrating vanity... it should be deleted. (→Netscott) 03:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is edited by wikipedia editors. It should be deleted. 71.112.141.236 04:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Wanna see a vanity wiki-article? See uncyclopedia. Now THAT's a heap of unverified original research vanity. At least the ED article had a criticism section. 71.112.141.236 04:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, MONGO, MONGO! Let's stick to the reasons WHY this article should or should not exist, as I for one am tiring of the constant accusations being spread around here about me, which has nothing to do with why the article should or should not exist. The point of the argument is: can the article be reliably referenced following policy, does it pass our really low standards of WP:WEB and does it pass WP:V. Aside from a couple of links that show when the website was created and the alexa rating, I can't find anything that otherwise demonstrates, following policies, that the website even exists or can be reliably referenced. If people have a beef with me, bring it to my talk page or shoot me an email.--MONGO 05:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Said it on the talk page for ED--why do the people here not go out and AfD *every* WikiMedia project I cited on the main page of this AfD? If you are truly commited to your honest good faith convictions that this has nothing *nothing* to do with ED itself as an outside party or the attack on MONGO, I challenge you here to demonstrate good faith by prooving so. AfD all those for non-notability. rootology 05:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Aagin, this isn't about me demostrating good faith. It is about what criteria this article has that can be verfied by our policies to warrant inclusion. You're continued accusations against me are now very old, and I once again ask to to stop. If you think those articles are not notable, then nominate them for deletion. I am here to have someone demostrate to me why this article needs to exists and so far, no one has.--MONGO 05:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
OK. Question: if this article is recreated in time with verifiable sources, will you agree in writing to not pursue any agenda towards it in the form of aggressive tactics based on previous history with you and off-WP trolling, or the nature of it's content? rootology 07:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it's not like ED is mentioned in the guardian or anything. Hardvice 05:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
What? Is it? rootology 07:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it is. See new section below. -GTBacchus(talk) 10:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It only proves your bias. You go against this article when there are thousands of less notable ones, but you lead the charge against the one that put YOU on the front page. You talk about policy yet you went head on against it by removing the external link from the page. You edited the page after protecting it. You protected it in a dispute you were in. You deleted an image you should've just reverted. You only follow policy when it's a convenience, and then you use it to absurd levels. 71.112.141.236 06:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The external link was to their mainpage which had the attack article about me and that is why it was removed. I deleted the older PNG image after the newer one had been created twice, and then they edited the new PNG over top of the old one with a re-edit. I then deleted that since it was more than obvious that the old image was going to be used to continue to harass me. I protected the page because editors with only a few edits and other people closely involved with ED were here harassing. This website isn't some playground. I ask you once again, stick to the policy reasons for why this article is verifiable and stop attacking me.--MONGO 06:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Why didn't you protect the image? 71.112.141.236 06:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
What have MONGO's motivations got to do with anything? The article either is or is not based on information from reliable independent sources. Whatever catalyzed this particular AfD now doesn't really matter. The only question is whether we're following WP:V and WP:NOR. Other articles about non-notable websites will be deleted in time. This one's time happens to be this week, and it just doesn't matter what provoked that. I don't see anybody's good faith as being in question, because deleting one delete-worthy article while there exist other delete-worthy ones just doesn't begin to look like the actions of someone who's out to harm the project. If this deletion was in some way provoked by ED writing an attack article about MONGO, who cares? -GTBacchus(talk) 06:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the IP. Editing something after you protect it is very amateur. You should know better. What you're supposed to do is have your buddies do the edits for you and then protect on their version. Now I hope you don't make that mistake again. Hardvice 06:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The old PNG can be recreated as changes to image deletions should allow that. Hardly congruent with accusations of admin abuse however. I hope you don't continue to upload images that are copywrite violations claiming them as self portraits. I don't seek "help" with situations in which I am dealing with overt trolling.--MONGO 06:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe this reply was ment for someone else since it did not respond to my statement. And to be clear I was talking about removing the link to the site, not the image link after protection. Hardvice 07:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's established you should not have edited post locking. That is not a debateable point anymore. It was conflict of interest, abuse of admin privs, violation of protection policy--three for one. Just as there is no justification for 3rr violations--see Hipicrite and I today--admins get no free pass for breaking rules either. Whether they are mocked or not. rootology 07:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't violate 3RR...check the diffs and learn the policy. The external link was pointing to an attack page, so I removed it. How entertaining that I have asked, politely to discuss the reasons why the article is to be kept or not and to stop attacking me, yet both of you continue to do this. How many times do you have to be told this? I simply love how some here thing is was okay to continue to allow that website to attack anyone via their external link.--MONGO 07:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've asked before but you've never directly answered: show me precedent elsewhere on WP, or policy, that supported your removal of the link POST LOCKING and I'll be done with this point. rootology 07:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Take this to AN/I and stop attacking me on this page.--MONGO 08:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Already did, you wouldn't answer that direct question there either (twice asked, I believe). But I'm done with asking you for now. History and a future RfC will answer. rootology 08:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I am tired of your threats...if you want to file an rfc, then do so. Your personal attacks have been noted.--MONGO 08:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Look, this is the LAST time I'm going to bring up MONGO's edits in the scope of this part of the discussion. Here's my question for everyone: is there any valid WP precedent or justification for his removal of the ED link from the ED article post-locking and the refusal to put it back in? Please educate me and everyone else because the circles of talking about that are making me dizzy. Looking for comments from others BESIDE mongo on this question, then I'm done with that point unless some divine revelation decends from the skies. rootology 07:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging: the only feasible solution

Inserting one or two sentences about this, or even a paragraph, into the LiveJournal page and redirecting ED there sounds like a solution that can keep most of the original research and NPOV away. And the keepers can't complain that we're excluding them. Crazyswordsman 02:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Except it's more than LJ. It has no valid merge target. A stub would be entirely proper and meet all necessary policies at the moment until we can get this mess sorted out. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
nn unverified original research nonsense... delete. (→Netscott) 02:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree. This is more notable than some of the other wikis. Moreover, this article is verifiable as well. --Siva1979Talk to me 04:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable? Based on which independent reliable sources? -GTBacchus(talk) 07:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I would add references but it has been fully protected, maybe a semi would be enough? Lapinmies 07:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please add the new references to the talk page as a new section. I have a sandbox mockup here too made for trying to come up with a compromise, feel free to tweak it and report back on the main article take page sandbox section or your new one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_damatica/sandboxfork1 rootology 08:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I made this. This is a mergeable version I think. Crazyswordsman 11:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Good one! That would be a merge into the LJ article? OK, then, questions for the most vocal deletionists: MONGO, Hipicrite, Netscott: what do you think of *each* option? Move en masse to parody right now, or merge to Livejournal, until such time as the article on ED can be found to have enough sources to warrant it's moving back to a full article of it's own on normal name space? rootology 14:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two compromises I can live with and hopefully others

As my concerns for a fair impartial review by an admin in my opinion based on what is certainly heading for basically Negative Concensus has spiralled as much as everything else to do with this... It's simply not happening since everyone is absurdly heated. Again: this AfD should be suspended in general as it's become a four ring circus of bias and POV assaults by everyone. But:

EDIT: Requesting that all four people I named at least in Good Faith read all four of my points, and I ask the other three to at least sign yay/nay. The other ten would be simply yay/agree votes. rootology 08:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Option One:

1. We hash out three impartial editors (and just them) to stub down the article in a sandbox page on ED article to strictly content that merits inclusion as a Web-related stub. The Alexa notability and the few incoming legitimate links make this worth while for inclusion in WP as that. I nominate Netscott, crazyswordwoman, and Badlydrawnjeff. I propose that if MONGO, myself, Badlydrawnjeff, and Hipicrite all agree in writing to this as the main people involved thus far in the endless back and forth, PLUS at least ten total people agree, then the AfD be suspended as is, and those three work it on a sandbox. Netscott is for removal, Jeff for retention, and swordwoman has been amazingly levelheaded thus far. If they agree to do the edits on the sandbox, if not, I'll renom people, or ask that they themselves nominate others. One pro delete, one for, and one who's been neutral. There's no other way out of this quagmire. Once the three of them have brought down the article to meet all standards amongst themselves, I propose that William M. Connolley be asked to handle unlocking and moving their version of the sandbox to the live page as he's been great and impartial to both sides. If within two weeks they can't give William a page that he agrees is appropriate to go on Wikipidia, it's unprotected, and people can AfD their heads off, but I will myself almost certainly abstain on that one. rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I sign agreement to this now. rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. I'd support this. Unfortunately, I know nothing of ED, but I could definitely help moderate. Crazyswordsman 11:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


  • Comments on this idea below here please. Sign above if you're game.

[edit] Option Two:

2. Based on the ludicrous morass here, as second compromise I nominate that the AfD be suspended/terminated and the article left as-is for now and locked by William M. Connolley still. The AfD tags come down, the article is just locked. One week afterwards to give EVERYONE time to cool off, Netscott can put in the EXACT same AfD. Same wording the whole nine yards. However, the compromise here: I propose that if MONGO, myself, Badlydrawnjeff, and Hipicrite all agree in writing to this as the main people involved thus far in the endless back and forth, that we are NOT under any circumstances to post in the AfD main page on the "new" AfD discussion beyond saying Speedy Delete, Speedy Keep, Abstain, Keep, and so on. Our reasons are MORE than noted at this point on both sides, and all of us have turned this into a digital Vietnam. If all four of us agree in writing plus at least ten others, I put this forward as the second option. rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I sign agreement to this now. rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Support as well Karwynn (talk) 15:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


  • Comments on this idea below here please. Sign above if you're game.

[edit] If Support For Both:

3. If both meet full support (that's twenty eight agreements total--that should be good for concensus I'd think), as a matter of Good Faith I propose that number #1 is then automatically selected as the option in effect if the three editors and william agree. rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)



[edit] Otherwise...

4. If we don't go for an attempt at compromise and push this mess of an AfD as-is, this a) going to a bigger circus of a deletion reversal, and will certainly reach RfC (probably a couple for the myriad points argued) and almost certainly ArbCom. Do we all want to waste WEEKS or MONTHS on this? rootology 08:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

We aren't going to appoint poeple to write the article, that is completely unwiki, and excepting anyone to "stay away" from editing the article aside from a community imposed ban to do is is also unwiki.--MONGO 08:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, would you support moving to parodies? rootology 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another possible compromise would be to move the article, whichever version of it, to a subpage of Wikipedia:Parodies, where all of the problems about verifiability, etc, would just vanish in a puff of hypertext. -GTBacchus(talk) 09:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another compromise I would support. Crazyswordsman 11:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Me too. If/when the ED subject matter ever get more RS-worthy sources it could always get moved back to the main name space later. I'm up for this. rootology 14:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a great compromise. Actually, any compromise which serves the true mission of WP to catalog the entirety of human knowledge and be a useful free encyclopedia is appealing to me. I would love to see everyone cool out on this article. It has been FAR too divisive. Compromise is good! --Bouquet 17:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments from head of deletion debate

I removed the following fomr the section at the head of the deletion debate. It was becoming unedifying. I have also toned down Netscott's wording, which might have been taken as inflammatory by the EDers. Just zis Guy you know? 09:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Also of note in terms of vanity is the fact that this article was re-created (after its initial deletion) by User:SchmuckyTheCat. Who also created the redirect from the originally deleted article's spelling. (→Netscott) 04:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Closing admin, please note Netscott makes unproven accusations, and a proven one I made he hides all evidence of it [1]. I am doubtful he will even let my complaint stay, and will probably make more unfounded accusations. There have also been other comments that he has completely hidden and not archived at all. Any good arguments are hidden. Hardvice 02:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Just as there are ED trolls whose votes should not be counted for vanity reasons, many of the deletionists have used innappropriate logic and personal attacks in this debate. Some of their reasoning can be seen as a violation of WP:NPOV, just as much as the article is. These cancel each other out, methinks. Crazyswordsman 02:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe the ED editors fully are regard their points here as true. Trolling is done to provoke reaction and is not what the person regard as true. ED editors' trolling occurs mostly in ED articles. Hardvice 02:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


It appears Nettscott did not archive or later removed his archiving, so I am putting my comment back:

Please note the IP address 24.252.28.188 made this edit [2], which is http://www.encyclopediadamatica.com/index.php/User:MONGO1 and that edit [3] points to a voter here. This is more evidence of user linking across wikis than the other has given. Hardvice 01:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

What the heck does that have to do with the reasons for keeping or deleting this article? I see no evidence that that IP was used there, and who cares? It has nothing to do with this discussion.--MONGO 07:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Note, user Netscott has been vandalizing this article by removing comments. He has even claimed to archive them, but has only blanked them. He has also removed his comments where he claimed archiving and blanking. Netscott has removed his comments here [4] Hardvice 03:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


You forgot to move the initial innacurate thing that prompted responses, at least innacurate for me: Hardvice 09:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

{{sofixit}}. But I notice the whole f***ing thing has been moved back in. Ah well. Just zis Guy you know? 12:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Ok, here are the sources that have been put forward to satisfy WP:V and WP:RS. If we decide to stub this thing, we'll need to be very clear exactly which sources we're using, and what they actually say. Maybe this list already exists, but I haven't seen it yet.

Did I miss any? -GTBacchus(talk) 10:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Just added two more to the list above. -GTBacchus(talk) 10:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep, the article has some serious flaws as far as meeting our policies for inclusion.--MONGO 10:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, what do you think of moving it to a subpage of Wikipedia:Parodies? -GTBacchus(talk) 10:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I think any support I have for such a move will be deemed by the hard core supporters of the article as admin abuse. But, the move sounds like an excellent idea, that is, if the decision is decided to keep the article at all. We don't have an article on Wikipedia Review or Hive mind for many of the same reasons we shouldn't have this one.--MONGO 10:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Gosh, would it be more effective if you come out against the move, thus driving the masses towards it by some law of mangetic repulsion? That would be ironic, or something, because the suggestion to move the article there came directly from Encyclopedia damatica, from a hard core supporer of the article. -GTBacchus(talk) 11:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia damatica is leaps and bounds more notable than Wikipedia Review or Hive Mind. The only thing they have in common is criticism of Wikipedia, and ED only has about 50-100 pages on that. 71.112.141.236 12:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
So, Washington Post and Guardian mention it. That basically kills the non-notability argument. And non-verifiability argument was nonsensical from the start since websites verify themselves (rather conveniently). I just don't see what the debate is about.  Grue  10:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Neither of those stand up to WP:RS and you should know that. All they do is mention it, and the Washington Post doesn't even do that on the linked page.--MONGO 10:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) "Basically kills the non-notability argument"? No it doesn't. Compare the sources listed here with the sourcing at WikiTruth, where they link to articles that were actually written about the website, with details that we can use in the article. These sources just barely kind of do that. In order to help you understand what this debate is about, please see the discussion between myself and SJK in the AfD. I think it's made pretty clear there what's at stake in this discussion. I hope that helps, and I urge you to consider that saying "I don't see what the debate is about" isn't actually the most effective way to end it, especially when compared with seeing fully what the debate is about and reaching an understanding with other participants. -GTBacchus(talk) 10:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This article isn't about a "criticism" site but a non-notable, unverifiable, original sourced parody site that's all about attacking people. I don't really understand why people want to compare this site to other genuine sites of Wikipedia criticism. (→Netscott) 10:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe because people keep saying it's "non-notable" and 'unverifiable" while blocking themselves from the facts? --badlydrawnjeff talk 10:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Which particular facts are you referring to here? -GTBacchus(talk) 11:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The sources, the actual history of the "attack," etc. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You mean the crap sources, that are listed right here? As for the history of the "attack" maybe there's some details I don't know (maybe a lot), but I've thought for months that this article was a glaring violation of WP:NOR, and that has nothing to do with any recent "attack". -GTBacchus(talk) 11:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Crap sources." Riiight. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, did that come across badly? I just meant to abbreviate the problems I was trying to highlight above - namely that there's not a single reliable source actually proving providing any information that verifies the contents of the article. I mean, is there? -GTBacchus(talk) 12:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (typo corrected 23:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Parody option

Actually, even if the main article is deleted, wouldn't a recreation after under parody count as a seperate article? Also, does anyone have any reason under policy that it shouldn't just be moved there NOW to end this nightmare? rootology 14:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: I now support just moving it RIGHT NOW. I'm tired of this, and if even thinks this won't be a no concensus vote where either a vote to keep or delete won't be met with scorn and appeal all the way up to ArbCom they're not thinking right. rootology 14:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that'd be a bad thing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've called our MONGO, Hipicrite, and Netscott now several times to answer. The ball is in their court for better or worse to save everyone tons of grief. Even if it gets deleted I can easily see someone shoving a new article under parody or a whole section into livejournal. Which if someone editing under LJ moves into a fork off the LJ article, recreating the ED article, we're back at square one. Unless MONGO, Netscott, or hipicrite DO have bias, they should address this (not an attack, simple fact based on all evidence to date on both sides). rootology 15:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to move a page to another namespace while an AFD is ongoing. You would require buyin from far more than just three to do so. I suggest you make the article in the Wikipedia: namespace, and vote delete here. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there any policy reason prohibiting what hipocrite has suggested? What policies for source, AfD, etc. do Parody articles fall under? If I just add it I'm concerned someone will just torch it as well. rootology 15:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Rootology, I really don't think there's a "policy reason" that you can't create a subpage of Parodies for ED. I'd check out the subpages that already exist, and consider using them as models. If one were to be deleted, it would be under MfD. Wikipedia:Parodies exists for the same reason BJAODN exists - to amuse Wikipedians. ContiE's suggestion that this would be a slippery slope allowing for something like WP:Brian Peppers is unfounded, because Wikipedia parodies have the distinction of being related to the project, and thus of inherent interest to Wikipedians, whereas random topics like Brian Peppers don't have an excuse like that.
I think the move to a Parodies subpage would be a good solution. The cross-namespace redirect is a different matter; we can't have that. The encyclopedia is the encyclopedia, and the project namespace is the project namespace. Part of the integrity of the encyclopedia rests on that distinction being kept unmuddied. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, *If* a delete vote is reached (not likely it looks like) and the ED article is removed, is there any policy reason prohibiting it's recreation after in the parody space? rootology 15:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Eh, so an article that gets deleted is just moved to the Wikipedia namespace and everything's fine? That sounds rather silly to me. Let's have WP:Brian Peppers! --Conti|✉ 15:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo pulled his veto power on the Peppers things. I think it would take a board vote to overrule him there. But yeah, if the Parody section is *NOT* bound by the normal rules and standards, it's a good option and fits with other similar articles already there. I'm asking for comment if theres any policy reason I can't recreate it there now, or any policy reason to prevent the deletionists from just torching it after I do. rootology 15:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My reason would be that the page will serve no purpose other than being a mirror of a deleted article. That's simply not what the Wikipedia namespace is for. I'm talking about moving the whole unreferenced article there, I don't mind writing a few words about it on Wikipedia:Parodies. --Conti|✉ 15:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not a mirror, it would be the actual site. I'm saying we should move it there regardless of keep or delete. Unless it's against the rules if this is deleted I *will* move it there afterwards. If this is so notable that so many editors are going bananas over it its CERTAINLY notable enough to be in the parody wiki space. No one can legitimately argue against that given this circus. But... the day ED the site gets more sources, it moves right back on over to main space. Actually, given how insane this fighting is, I *eagerly* look forward to that say, just so both sides have to shut up and live with a legitimately sourced article, so that we don't have to go through this circus again. rootology 15:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
And Encyclopedia damatica will become a redirect to that page? What about the internal links to the article? --Conti|✉ 15:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the main name space URL will redirect to the same source content mirrored under parody. Wouldn't the individual links just pick up on the redirect and carry over? rootology 15:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they would, and that's exactly my problem. Beside the fact that there's a Wikipedia guidline that discourages cross-namespace-redirects, this would basically keep the article, and even worse, it wouldn't even have to abide by any of our fundamental rules, because it's not in the main namespace anymore. This is not acceptable. All links from the main namespace to the Wikipedia namespace article should be removed at minimum. --Conti|✉ 15:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No. Crossnamespace redirects are speedy candidates. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, WP:CSD only says that redirects to the User and user talk namespace from the main namespace are speedies. Crazyswordsman 22:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why??

Is an admin Zanium editing the article while protected? What is the reasoning behind this policy violation? Further evidence this whole thing needs to be thrown out as a biased unfair, completely impossible to be impartial admin vote. Sorry. This is THREE TIMES this protected article has been inappropriately edited in direct violation of policy. rootology 16:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Admin "right" to edit?

Please review: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rootology&redirect=no#Feel_free_to_edit_the_article.2C

What is the meaning of this? rootology 16:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)



I'm unwatching this page (and nearly all this ED related cesspool). I'm just sick of all of this. Sorry again if anyone feels their time was wasted--I'm going back to my old projects. If anyone has any important questions or whatever for me hit me on my talk page or email me if it's private. rootology 20:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Straw poll

Yes, polls are evil and I know, but this is just to see if the communuty supports an alternative to keep or delete. Crazyswordsman 22:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Options

[edit] Crazyswordsman solution: Merge a stub about it into LiveJournal

comment - As stated in the article, ED is about much more than Livejournal, even if it is a central point to it. There's more that's worth mentioning. YOu'd also have to merge it into meme, at the very least

[edit] rootology solution: Let a neutral party rewrite the article

[edit] GTBacchus solution: Move to Wikipedia:Parodies

[edit] Combination of any of the above

  1. A mix of my solution and GTB's solution would be perfect. Crazyswordsman 22:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose any compromise (please explain why)

  1. This poll assumes that the article isn't worth having. That's wrong. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    It's not about the article anymore. This is clearly a wedge that divides Wikipedians. As a result, we need to work together to hammer something out that will make no one feel like a loser. Crazyswordsman 22:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    I disagree. It's a wedge that divides because there's too much spin on the issue to make a logical statement. Perhaps when certain folks retract some of their statements about other editors and their motives, some sort of compromise might be possible. Besides, your straw poll didn't offer an option I could live with anyway, so what's the point of it otherwise? --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  2. This article is not "worth" having... non-notable vanitycruft. (→Netscott) 23:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    I never said it was worth having. And I agree with you. But that won't solve the problem at large. We don't want consensus overridden. Besides, about 5-10% of the information is notable and not vanity, and thus qualifies for inclusion in another place. Crazyswordsman 00:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  3. Article is unverifiable crap. Site (full of unverifiable crap) is not notable. Unverifiable crap article about non-notable crap-filled site = not encyclopedic. Straw poll about non-encyclopedic article = waste of collective time, and continued exhaustion of community patience. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    Agreed, but just because the site is crap isn't an excuse to delete it. I could say that Hillary Duff is a crap singer (and she is), but she's made enough of a fool of herself/sold herself out too much/hung around with the right people to much/however you want to put it to warrant her an article. ED has just enough notablity for a mention, but that's it. Crazyswordsman 00:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    I disagree for the reasons I stated. You summarize my opinion incorrectly. I don't support deletion because either the article or the site are crap - I support it because both are crap and you cannot make a useful article about a useless topic. The fact that the editors have been involved in personal attacks, spamming and trolling to undermine Wikipedia admins isn't a factor - but it's certainly context. Utter crap, without any constructive purpose beyond vanity. Delete. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  4. It seems like we should first see if there is a consensus to delete before we decide what to do with the article if it's kept. Tom Harrison Talk 23:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    And it seems like a mixed bag and a heated debate. There WILL be no consensus to delete OR to keep. Judging by the fact that this is the third time this version of the article is up for deletion. Crazyswordsman 00:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    Sometimes voting is not the answer. When a Wikipedia attack site trolls and stacks the vote while continuing to engage in personal attacks against individual WP editors or admins, the vote can (and has been) ignored and admins have acted in the best interests of WP. Ultimately, I expect that is what will happen here. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  5. Until WP:V from WP:RS is addressed, negotiation is impossible: policy says we may not have an article. Once we have sufficient reliable sources to ensure neutral coverage, then we can debate how big that coverage should be, if at all. Just zis Guy you know? 13:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    Agreed...the alexa rating for traffic and the link which shows when the site was set up are about all we have that even minimally meet WP:RS or WP:V.--MONGO 13:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  6. No compromise for bad faith, emotionally motivated AfDs. Or AfDs that were filed upon request by someone else. Karwynn (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    When are you going to stop talking about other people's motivations? Do you think that could possibly be helpful? If you're not trying to be helpful, what are you trying to do? -GTBacchus(talk) 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    I've honestly seen more AFDs made in bad faith. I read on someone's blog that he nominated an article for deletion out of spite for the people related to the topic of the article (not necessarily the writers of it), and he admitted to personally attacking everyone who voted to keep it, and said he felt little remorse for them, if any. This is hardly bad faith. Crazyswordsman 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  7. Wikipedia has notability guidelines. AfDs of non-notable articles are not "compromised" to keep. Even for a chat forum that manages to mobilize its users to "vote"AfdIsNotAVote(TM). Weregerbil 08:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other comments/Polls are Evil

[edit] Last question (I swear)

If the article gets AfD'd (and if swordman is an admin, I recommend SHE handle the closing), it won't be automatically locked like some other deleteds are, will it? As any other normal article it still retains the ability to be in good faith recreated later if better sourcing arises? rootology 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Given this article's history of deletion and recreation, salting it would make perfect sense if indeed it were to be deleted. (→Netscott) 23:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought it was only deleted once? rootology 23:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes and reviewing the AfD discussion one can see that its recreation appears to have been a bit underhandedly done. If deleted then salt this spelling and all of the other spellings too. (→Netscott) 23:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, official last one and I'm out: whats the official "right way" to request unlocking of protection on an AfD'd article to bring it back later (assuming new sources pop up someday)? Just so I know/my own edification. I've learned a frightening amount of policy in the last 48 hours except this. I am seriously done otherwise, good luck to both sides, etc., have a nice weekend everyone... rootology 23:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
WP:RFPP? -GTBacchus(talk) 23:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey! I'm not a woman! Nor am I an admin. If I was, I'd probably close it as no consensus since that's what it is anyway. I'd also leave a note on the talk page asking the editors who really want to see this go and those who want it to stay to hammer out a compromise and report back to me. Crazyswordsman 00:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah. And due to my participation in this I wouldn't close it anyway. That would have conflict of interest problems. Crazyswordsman 00:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion? Or the first deletion? Hardvice 23:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Root's self-imposed hiatus from the ED articles was apparently very short-lived. To the actual point, I would prefer that an admin who has not participated in the dialogue closes the case. The goal here is not to create a 'wedge' issue and open the door to more trolling by ED complainants seeking to establish notability using personal attacks - it's to resolve the issue so that the encyclopedia is improved. THAT is the goal here. The goal is not the pursuit of vanity, and certainly not personal attacks against WP editors. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, just realized I missed a couple things I was thinking about still. Really OUT of this whole AfD debate itself. Have a nice weekend Ryan!rootology 23:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
You too! See you at the beach? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
More likely at a city wide food festival here, but yeah. Beach = better for waistline than either food or a wiki weekend. rootology 01:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] does this meet V, RS?

On this newspaper source from one of England's major newspapers,

"Encyclopaedia damatica contains a photo of George Bush with the American Constitution and with tl;dr inscribed on his forehead. TL;DR - or tl;dr, tl:dr, tl,dr or tl/dr - is net-derived lingo for 'too long; didn't read'.

refers to this section on Encyclopedia damatica, quite clearly. So, a reputable news source (RS) has now apparently cited Encyclopedia damatica the site directly for something that factually does exist, the article in question, and has drawn attention to it's existence (V). It's also NOR. If nothing else, based on this and the other "minor" citations from sources PLUS the borderline stuff (which should be debated in the article's talk page) I can't see a deletion based on this. If nothing else this article has to go back to the drawing table as a stub. But a deletion should not occur based on this. Going back to lurk, you guys can discuss this. rootology 01:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

That does not do anything other than describe one image that happens to be in that website...so. Learn what reliable sources are and then try to find any. The ED website isn't even notable...I get 14 unique google hits. Aside from the links demostrating that the web domain exists and it's traffic via alexa, no one has demostrated how the rest of the article can be reliably sourced. If this article continues, it will need to be a greatly reduced stub consequently.--MONGO 07:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


1. Well actually, you're wrong... I'm assuming Good Faith that perhaps you didn't click far enough in with the buttons on the bottom of Google? Google Encyclopedia damatica. "Results 1 - 100 of about 140,000 for Encyclopedia damatica." - more than 14 by far. In fact here's the first 14 unique host names that mention Encyclopedia damatica from the search I just listed. I stopped counting at 14, on page 3 of viewing 10 per page. I excluded any ED links of itself (three uniques). Here are just the first 14: urbandictionary.com, petercooper.co.uk, jasonnolan.net, bipolarplanet.com, fullmoon.typepad.com, aboyandhiscomputer.com, keenspot.com, answers.com, flashflashrevolution.com, amazon.com, devshed.com, smartania.com, dhyansanjivani.org, ateaseweb.com. Are you not seeing the other page upon page of results after that...?
2. Also, WP:WEB is not policy grounds for deletion, and justifiably can't be trusted and/or relied upon. For example, I can't find that Guardian newpaper article on ED in google--no idea how it was found, But apparently covers other parts of Guardian. Guardian is a MAJOR media source that is reliable. guardian newspaper london Google searches turn up 9,700,000+ hits. Is that not notable either? "In November 2005 The Guardian had a certified average daily circulation of 378,618 copies (November 2005), as compared to sales of 904,955 for the Daily Telegraph, 692,581 for The Times, and 261,193 for The Independent.[6]".
3. That makes it the 3rd largest print media source of a country with a population as of 2001 of 49,138,831[7]. Compare those numbers with the New York times numbers, which are around the 1.15 million/day level as of last year[8]. Compare that number with the population of the United States--more people in England read the Guardian per capita than do the NY Times, one of the most famous, reliable, and notable news sources in the WORLD, than people in the NY Times's home country. By virtue of simply, impossible to disprove math, the Guardian is a notable news source. If the NY Times had that level of integration into the American population they'd be spraying each other with Cristal in the newsroom.
4. Is it a reliable source? Apparently, reliable enough that London and many other British-related articles here on Wikipedia [cite it as meeting RS].
5. Last, reread what I wrote! The Guardian article is clearly talking about the subject matter, content, and text of that page on ED. The article says " tl:dr, tl,dr or tl/dr - is net-derived lingo for 'too long; didn't read'." tl,dr also on Google turns 60,000+ hits, making it notable itself on a level[9]. I'm sorry if it's not an 800 page breathless expose. It's an article in one of the most read per capita newspapers in one of the G8 nations. That doesn't count for anything? I'd like outside opinions, and if you are going to reply MONGO, I would appreciate a good faith reply to why each of my (5) points are not valid. I spent the time to what I believe is disprove honestly what you said, please do so in kind. Others are welcome as well.
6. Addendum: I agree with you 100% where you say just above "it will need to be a greatly reduced". Yep. It deserves inclusion in WP, and the real issue at hand is just a clean up matter. There is *NO* valid reason to delete. Trollery, nature of content, etc., has no role in what should be in Wikipedia. Are you starting to agree that Wikipedia and cites that feature concern should not be censured? If so, good! If not, perhaps you should make demonstrate "Good faith" and nominate for AfD another wikipedia article about a content site that slams and puts personal info about Wiki staff online: Wikitruth. Does that deserve inclusion? rootology 14:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to above heading

Placed in a new heading to avoid possible splitting off from the above topic's heading.

You're absolutely right about all this source stuff, and there is no good faith reason to exclude any of the ones seen here. Besides, ED works on its own as inclusion in an article about itself. It's right in either WP:RS or WP:V I believe. The delete votes, at least the good faith ones, are basically saying "this article needs cleanup". Well, deletion is not the way to go. There is no problem with sources. Worst of all, no one can even include the sources because it's locked. And there will be minimal replies to this, because MONGO and Hipocrite and Netscott tend not to reply to headings where they know they're wrong. Karwynn (talk) 16:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
You go around claiming that myself and others that are in disagreement with you are intentionally avoiding certain issues, which is completely inaccurate. Time to argue about the article and not the opposition to your perspective.--MONGO 17:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DIscussion of sources

See all this? This should've been going on in the article's talk page before it was put up for deletion. "Delete first, ask questions later" is highly unwiki. Karwynn (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Administrative *AND* bias by his friends since MONGO got his feelings hurt. To be honest I'm overall EXTREMELY AND UTTERLY disgusted by every side in this. What should be included in WP should have NO BEARING ON IT'S CONTENT NATURE OR ANYTHING EMOTIONAL. Ever. Period. It should be based on fact, logic and truth, like a real encyclopedia. rootology 15:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay...this is the last time I am going to tell you to stop tossing my name around here. I am also sick and tired of your personal attacks. What part of that do you not understand? I am not telling you again.--MONGO 17:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, I am seriously done with all of this as well and will not be contributing anymore to this AfD--I stand behind my five point analysis above and think I've proven the merit of that reference and notability. What do you think of the five points, if I can ask? rootology 17:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
As a trained researcher, the Guardian is a decent source, "but" what they have to say about ED doesn't say anything at all. It is a reliable source based on the ability to demonstrate that the Guardian is big and well known, but they don't tell us anything about ED...what is it that they tell us that is informative? So we say that in the Guardian they use one sentence to tell us nothing except that ED has a picture of Bush with some markings on his forehead...how does that help us with the article as far as establishing notability? They got a brief sentence somewhere...surely there are thousands of websites that have been mentioned at one time or another by some large entity that everyone has heard of...but that doesn't help us establish notablity, especially when based on one sentence. ED's 15 minutes of fame lasted 3 seconds in this circumstance.--MONGO 17:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tangential comment re other Wikis' notability, rootology comments

Although I remain opposed for now purely on notability grounds, rootology made an interesting point about Wikis in general: :

Speedy Keep ... Also, even if nearly every part of this article were legitimately removed, it is still just as notable as all these similar articles (just a small sample of similar articles on "niche market" wiki projects):
The_Psychology_Wiki, Jurispedia, Mac_Guide, Open_Source_Reiki, OpenFacts, OrthodoxWiki, PSConclave, PeanutButterWiki, Personal_Telco, ProductWiki, Quicksilver_wiki, Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy_Wiki, Star_Trek_Gaming_Universe, State_Wiki, and Symbolwiki.
Definite keep per all of this. rootology 21:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

To which I replied, perhaps too flippantly:

...in the meantime, maybe we've just been handed a working list of wiki-related articles for PROD tags. --A. B. 18:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking at some of these other Wikis and leaving aside Encyclopædia damatica for now, should WP:WEB be modified in the future for Wikis? Some of these look useful, but I don't see much documentation of notability in the articles. Some appear to have some ties to Wikipedia. --A. B. 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone should make a "Wiki Wiki," a Wiki for Wikis, where all this can go. Crazyswordsman 02:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Posted. Good idea, I started the discussion. rootology 02:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
A Wiki of Wikis... like WikiIndex? -GTBacchus(talk) 02:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
AboutUs.org is a new Wiki of websites that already has descriptions of most of these Wikis, almost all in need of expansion. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Good for this site too, as the "father" of the whole movement... to have these wiki articles. If not they all have to deleted. Either that or WEB needs to change. rootology 03:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a promotional tool for MediaWiki software, or for the Wiki "movement"... it's really just an attempt to write a high quality encyclopedia, and we understand high quality to mean certain things in terms of how we source our information. Wikipedia is not a web directory, nor should it be. I agree that any article on a website failing to meet WP:WEB should be deleted, or that guideline should be updated to reflect that some other standard is what's actually in effect. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The deletion of ED.

(copied from Wikipedia_talk:Snowball clause by —Nate Scheffey) I understand deleting encyclopedia damatica, because it is a small subculture of an already small subculture, but why was the discussion page for the deletion of the ED entry also deleted? What have you got to hide?

If the discussion page is still there, please tell me how to find it.

Follow-up question: Why is the wiki article on wikifur still up? It's also a small subculture of an already small subculture.

(Edit: When I say ED was deleted, I merely mean the page on ED. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Starblade (talk • contribs).

It was deleted because administrators like to censor things that they don't agree with. I would not be surprised if I was blocked for "disruption" and reverted for making this edit.--Mr. Bater 00:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like it's based on not knowing much about Wikipedia. Mr. Bater. It was deleted because it was all unverifiable original research. Please familiarize yourself with some Wikipedia policies before throwing accusations of bias around, thanks. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You all do realize this makes you look REALLY bad, and they'll mock you even more right?GrandMasterGalvatron 19:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of us aren't worried about that, GrandMasterGalvatron. We'd rather be mocked by ED for sticking to our policies like WP:V and WP:NOR than throw those polices away, and give up on being a reliable encyclopedia. Some of us think it looks pretty good to insist on some kind of standards, and that what makes us look bad is allowing self-aggrandizement by undocumented websites to pass for "encyclopedic". -GTBacchus(talk) 19:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Note also that it is in fact standard practice to delete discussion pages of articles. Many admins do it is a matter of course when they have deleted an article. JoshuaZ 03:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

GTBacchus, I was referring to the deletion of the talk pages. It is nothing more than totalitarianism and censorship.--Mr. Bater 04:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that or what JoshuaZ said above, that it's just routine that talk pages of deleted articles are usually also deleted. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bizarre censorship

Could someone please explain why the word "Dramatica" was search-and-replaced with "damatica" on this page? —Ashley Y 03:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think per the ArbCom decision re: MONGO links to ED are to be removed/blocked. From this I gather that rather than spend the time hunting and pecking specific links to ED a simpler shotgun approach was employed. A rather sensible solution I'd say. (→Netscott) 04:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If I understand the decision correctly, as a special exception to the mission of Wikipedia to create an encyclopaedia, an article on ED will never be allowed no matter how noteworthy and encyclopaedic the topic might become in the future. Is that correct? —Ashley Y 10:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Incorrect. If ED does manage to satisfy WP:WEB we will consider having an article about it. Not before. JoshuaZ 16:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks like "Wikipedia is not censored" became a joke.  Grue  18:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't for the protection of minors... -GTBacchus(talk) 09:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/r/t/Wikipedia_talk%7EArticles_for_deletion_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Dramatica_%283rd_nomination%29_b278.html"