Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Amiga virtual machine

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Please feel free to post long comments and discussion here. These comments were refactored from the main AFD page to aid readability. Stifle (talk) 22:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attention Please keep this article because soon it will evolve

Keep this article alive, because soon it will include not only existing Amiga Virtual Machines, but also the modes of implementation of Amiga-Like OSes into a Simmetrical MultiProcessing Hardware Virtualization environment.

Avoid again new creation of this article and again this discussion when the article Amiga VM will be created again to include new phenomena. If the article is already existing, then Amiga virtual machines running into Hardware Virtualization envirnoment could just be included easily as a paragraph of existing one.

Else if Amiga VM article will be deleted, at its new creation date we all should start a new series of boring discussions deviating Wikipedia people from discussing more important things.

Remember that all these different Amiga products hereby included into this article just describe a new phenomenon.

Amiga is evolving and rather advancing in various different directions. Any of its developers have different ideas in which to dirige their work and different ideas on how to implement it.

Sure some of these VM or VM like products I think could be grouped under a common term that unificate it all and describes briefly a concept rather different than emulation in its original meaning, or else, we all should edit also the voice Emulation (general emulation) of wikipedia trying to include also these new phenomena in a correct place, and this fact will transform emulation article into a huuuge one.

About Virtualization.

How to describe products as VMWare? Should these be grouped along in emulation? Or these new products are he demonstration of the advancing of something new?

Also new CPUs with multiple core allow HARDWARE virtualization.

This 2006 summer will be introduced on the market the new Open Server Workstation/Pegasos III-Amiga with double G5 dual core MPC 970.

It has been stated by Genesi owners (the firm which has got the commercial IP for MorphOS and Pegasos) that existing Amiga-like OSes such as MorphOS and AmigaONE which have no support for SMP (Symmetrical MultiProcessing) could run in these new CPUs with multiple instances (any instance of the OS for any core of the CPU) and they will share a single machine hardware and any single instance of the OS will believe it has full access to a true machine of its own.

Is this a sort of multiple emulation? Or it is full virtualization?

When these technologies will be Avalable on Amiga at their full, in what article of Wikipedia you think you can propose it will be inserted?

Having the article Amiga VM already present into Wikipedia for it, will give this new phenomenon a place to stay, and having already Amiga VM article present, will prevent in the future to start again ripetitive discussions as these we are suffering.

With respect,

--Raffaele Megabyte 17:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment I see your point that an Amiga emulator == Virtual Machine. BTW, is there a difference between an emulator and a virtual machine? Anyway I still disagree that all virtual machines are deserving of a Wikipedia article. It clutters Wikipedia to have (small) articles about largely the same topic, why not simply mention in the emulation article that emulators can be viewed as virtual machines in the same vain as Java, C#, and virtualizes? Bottom line, Amiga Virtual Machine, Amiga Software Abstraction Layer, Amiga Runtime Environment, and Amiga emulator is just ways of saying the same thing. (And I doubt those searching for Virtual Machine is overtly interested in WinUAE.)--Anss123 08:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment. Nice non sequitur there: my complaint is false because PC and Mac VMs are listed in another article. So? Add Amiga-related information to that article. On the other hand, I don't see a PC virtual machine or a Macintosh virtual machine article.
That people who type "emulator" are "usually" looking for games, while people who type "virtual machine" are looking for serious stuff, is, to my ears, an absurdity. I've been involved with Amiga emulation (and emulation of other systems) since 1997, never using games, and I've always referred to emulators, and that's what I always heard people calling them as well.
Two articles with different focus are definitely not needed, in any case! You're suggesting two articles on the very same topic, except from two different points of view (gaming vs applications). That's absolutely frowned upon!
Instead, if you think people searching for "virtual machine" rather than "emulation" is an issue, than just make this article a redirect to Amiga emulation, and add useful content there.
What you say about Java makes no sense whatsoever. Obviously Sun (Java Inc.? What is Java Inc.?) does not own the term "virtual machine", but the JVM has always been called so. Amiga emulators have always been called Amiga emulators, not virtual machines, by the very authors of them.
Make no mistake, they are virtual machines technically, but that's simply because every emulator is a virtual machine.
I restate my point: this article is a POV fork of Amiga emulation, and has no place on Wikipedia. Merge its content into the appropriate article(s), and if felt necessary make this article a redirect.
Additionally, I feel a separate Amiga Anywhere article is needed. LjL 14:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Response You said "I see your point that an Amiga emulator == Virtual Machine" but in fact my point is that Amiga Virtual Machine >= Amiga emulator. Amiga Virtual Machine is a very large and complicated subject. It requires a reasonably large article to explain it all. When someone says "Amiga Emulator" they are normally referring to UAE or Fellow which emulate existing hardware and not referring to Amiga Anywhere which is a virtual machine with no native hardware. You can't simply absorb the article into WinUAE that would be completely unfair to the competing Fellow AVM and you can't absorb it into Motorola 680x0 because Amiga Anywhere uses completely different byte codes than Motorola. I think you are trying to oversimplify things. Give the article a chance to grow. --StoneGiant 13:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Response - "Amiga virtual machine", in the broad sense you give to the term, doesn't need one article at all. It needs a few. One is Amiga emulation (not WinUAE or Fellow), which covers "virtual machines" that run 680x0 software; another ought to be Amiga Anywhere, which should exist in its own right as an article IMHO (just as you said, it uses completely different opcodes and is completely different in almost every possible sense). Motorola 68000 or 68k (which is the same as Motorola 680x0, a bit of a mess there) are, additionally, appropriate places for discussing the 68k architecture/instruction set in some detail. LjL 14:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment No! They don't need a few articles! They are saying there are 13 or more of these Amiga virtual machine things! Do you want them to have 13 different articles?! Did you know that they haven't made any Amiga real machines for ages? You can't buy a new real amiga machine anywhere. All they have left are the virtual machine thingies. Virtual machines are just software. If you let them have 1 article for each one then in a few years we would have 20 useless articles about a completely dead platform. No hardware = dead platform. Please let it die and please don't encourage them. Wikipedia is not the place for over-enthusiastic nonconformists.--AirportTerminal 14:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment - note the above vote by 4.231.152.76 is the editor's only edit. Mdwh 00:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - by the way, see how many hits "Amiga virtual machine" (with quotes) gets on Google (and compare with "Amiga emulation", if you really feel the need). This is a made up term, as is "AVM", as is the idea that "write once run anywhere" was an intended goal of the 68k Amiga architecture. Remove all the POV, and what you're left with is Amiga emulation. Except for the recent addition of an Amiga Anywhere section -- make an article out of it. LjL 14:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Response you said "This is a made up term,". It is a scientific term not a made up one.
    AVM is an abbreviation not a made up term. Why don't you attack JVM? JVM is a made up term by your criteria. Are you a Java sock puppet?
    You said "as is the idea that "write once run anywhere" was an intended goal of the 68k Amiga architecture."
    1. You are the only person claiming it was the intended goal so your argument is false.
    2. The word "goal" does not even appear in the article so your argument is completely erroneous.
    3. The "write once run anywhere" is just something that happened as a result of many hours of work by many people who released their work as open source. There is no need for you to be hostile about it and try to delete it.--StoneGiant 16:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment Open source is evil and must be eliminated. Java will rule the world!! Seriously, my point isn't that this article is without merit, my point is that there is no need for both an article about Amiga emulation and Amiga virtual machine. In other words, we can keep this article and delete Amiga emulation or drop this article in favor of Amiga emulation.--Anss123 16:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Response I would agree there was not a need for both Amiga emulation and Amiga Virtual Machine if the subject matter was simpler. But due to the complexity of the subject I cannot agree to this. The Amiga emulation article states in the first sentence that it is only about Classic Amiga emulation. Info about Amiga Anywhere does not belong in that article according to itself. Furthermore it is my opinion that info about bytecodes and other technical stuff does not belong in that other article. Amiga emulation should target "light" information useful to people who want to play games on an emulator and do the warez scene IMHO. While "heavy" technical information should be in the Amiga virtual machine article IMHO.
You are complaining that there are now 3 articles covering various aspects of Amiga virtual machines but look what I found in 60 seconds of wikipedia searching:
That is 11 articles all about the same thing. How did you decide that Java virtual machine gets 11 articles but Amiga virtual machine must be deleted for having 3 articles? Why don't you merge those 11 articles down into 2? Why were those articles allowed to grow unchecked for years? Why haven't you proposed them for deletion since they are all about the same thing?
Explanation Java is allowed to have as many virtual machine articles as they want because they are the majority. They are owned by a rich powerful company that conforms to the standards of civilized society. Amiga is owned by 3 noncomforist radicals who think Microsoft is evil. Give it a rest and let it die.--AirportTerminal 12:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
"Java" refers to a programming language and to a virtual machine (JVM) and its bytecode language. Those should be treated separately, as the JVM can and is used with other high-level programming languages, and the Java programming language doesn't necessarily compile into bytecode executed by a JVM. So some distinctions are appropriate.
Some of the articles you cited, however, do look to me like they would benefit from a merge: for example, I'm not sure it's appropriate to have an article entirely devoted to listing Java keywords, nor am I sure the various editions of Java Platform are best kept as separate articles.
"Amiga" refers to a lot of things, as well. Amiga computers, the AmigaOS (and then MorphOS, AROS...), Amiga Anywhere, the M68k architecture, the PPC architecture, emulators, and many other things. And these are roughly all represented on Wikipedia, just search for "amiga site:en.wikipedia.org" on Google.
It's many more than just 11 articles for sure.
The way you seem to put it, having to separate "Amiga emulation" and "Amiga virtual machine" articles would be rather like having two separate "Java platform for gaming" and "Java platform for application use" -- a distinction that would be completely arbitrary (since it would only exist on Wikipedia), stemming from two different POVs.
And please stop referring to Amiga Anywhere as a reason to keep this article; Anywhere, DE, whatever-they're-called, are completely different things from the "classic" Amiga computers and the emulators/VMs for them. Amiga Anywhere needs its own article, possibly Amiga Anywhere. LjL 19:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Response - why exactly are you turning my words upside down? What I claimed is that it was not the intended goal, and that the fact that the article implied overwise is POV. The word "goal" does not have to explicitely appear in the article to make it POV'd like I said. For example, the article says
The AVM has instructions for the following groups of tasks
(originally, it even said "bytecodes") - it's the M68k that has instructions for those tasks, and the "AVM" (i.e. Amiga emulators) have them simply as an effect of the fact that they, well, emulate a M68k. Obviously. So the phrase is not false, just horribly POV. This kind of POV impregnates the whole article, though I will refrain from quoting every relevant part of it here.
And while the term "JVM" is as made up as "AVM", JVM was made up not by Wikipedia, but by the folks who made it. "AVM" is being made up by this article alone. Wikipedia does not do original research. That it's an abbreviation doesn't quite matter, acronyms are terms too. And the phrase "Amiga virtual machine" itself is not an attested term, as a search on Google will obviously tell.
I'm not hostile about open source, and I'm specifically not hostile against Amiga emulators. I'm just kinda hostile about this article.
Lastly, you refer to me as a possible "Java sock puppet". May I ask you what you mean with this? That mine's a sock puppet account? Hopefully it's just my misunderstanding of English, and you really mean something else. Sockpuppeting is a grave accusation.
(By the way, I mostly agree with Anss123 if that wasn't clear enough, except that I rather favor keeping Amiga emulation and merging this article to it instead of doing the opposite.) LjL 17:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Response There are plenty of articles on the Amiga platform (see Category:Commodore Amiga, which easily compares to those on the Java platform. The reason the Amiga articles don't reference "virtual machine" all the time is because no one uses those terms with reference to the Amiga, whilst the Java platform was designed to be a virtual machine. Mdwh 23:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


Amiga EMULATION = a program to emulate the Amiga by emulating the response to code of 68000 CPU by motorola and the behaviour of Chipset of Amiga.
Example: Original UAE (which has no JIT Virtual machine at all, while WinUAE has a Motorola 68000 Just In Time Virtual machine built in)
And from opposite:
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = a base of abstraction layers capable to run programs created to accomplish Amiga standards and created with Amiga SDK to run on a series of different hardware machines.
Also as stand-alone commercial product.
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = commercial product such as Amiga Anywhere.
Es.: It is a sort of virtual machine to provide an ABSTRACTION LAYER running on top of TAO ELATE INTENT OS.
It is not in any way connected to Amiga products, but it is capable to run with very low hardware resources, and it provides an abstraction layer of its own, running programs created with Amiga SDKs giving them the opportunity to run with same aspect, despite of the platform that hosts it.
This gives Amiga Anywhere a close resemblance as Java, without the problem to write from scratch any VM on any different platforms as it happens with Java.
Also as another way to implement such a virtual machine:
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = an emulation of Amiga API to let run Amiga programs in an environment different from that of origin without providing standard emulation of all hardware.
Example: Trance Virtual Machine running on MorphOS which is a completely different OS, and it is based on PPC systems and on a Quark Microkernel different from standard Amiga Kernel (Exec).
Trance is a bonus program deep running into MorphOS core, and it is capable to interpretate on the fly programs of Classic (old) Amiga running on old Motorola 68000 CPU, but it DOES NOT emulate the original chipset of Amiga, so it COLUD NOT be considered an emulator (at least it is an API emulator).
But it is really a Virtual Machine providing Amiga programs an entire SANDBOX, capable to provide a sort of abstraction layer.
Also
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = Petunia Virtual Machine present into AmigaOS 4.0 as "API emulator" and, similar as Trance into MorphOS.
It is also capable to run on the fly Classic Amiga software.
Also
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = the core of Amithlon emulator.
Amithlon it is a very amazing emulator. It provides an abstraction layer capable to run Amiga related programs thru standard PC hardware, allowing the Amiga OS and its programs to use standard graphic cards of PC, standard audio, standard LAN ports, etc.
It does not run on top of other OSes, such as Windows or Linux, but it provides a sort of environment which is reckognized as a PC OS by the hardware.
So we have at least 4 different products, and 3 different ideas of what does it means an Amiga virtual machines all built in different ways: Amithlon, Amiga DE/Amiga Anywhere, Petunia, and Trance which accomplish to create an ENTIRE FAMILY of Amiga Virtual Machines.
Amithlon creates an environment in which an Amiga standard OS can run on standard PC hardware providing the feature to run standard Amiga programs biult for M68000 and which could have full access to PC peripeherals as it could be Amiga hardware and Amiga peripherals.
Amiga Anywhere it is an abstracion layer for Amiga to run completely new Amiga programs which is built from the beginning as standard Amiga software, but runs universally on any hardware situation.
Trance and Petunia are abstraction layers on which to run standard Amiga API and also are capable to run code for 68000, interpreting it on the fly. Trance also provides a sandbox in which all Amiga environment it is closed and stay separate from the rest of the MorphOS OS.
--Raffaele Megabyte 21:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I agree that the discussion has gotten way out of hand (though I can't avoid attributing a little of that to myself). I won't comment on this page further, but I ask everyone involved to take a short reality check and make sure all this AVM stuff makes any sense. To me, honestly, it doesn't. As for what Raffaele Megabyte said, please go ahead and write the relevant articles (if they aren't there already) about the things you mentioned; your points don't prove that an "Amiga virtual machine" article is needed, anymore than the enormity of software/hardware platforms/APIs/etc that allow running MS-DOS/Windows/etc software prove that a "PC virtual machine" is needed. LjL 22:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Online names aren't not relevant for Google counts. They are skewed all out of proportion to their notability. Not that 5 is notable, but let's not compare it to online names.--Prosfilaes 19:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Response You can't be blamed for your ignorance of Amiga facts and news. This is not your business, I sympathize with you.

But when you said:

2 talk about a hypothetical Amiga virtual machine for the A\BOX, which was never released
it just means that you are confusing a product never relased with internal amiga box (A-box) vitual machine environment of MorphOS which has two internal sandboxes hence named Abox (Amiga Box) and Qbox (Quark kernel box) [[1]].
Made a saerch in internet about the hits of Amiga Virtual Machine sure it is difficult because people tends to confuse EMULATION with virtual machines. So many terms shoul searched then.
But sure I must smile at search by you and User:70.110.80.15 because you believe that Google and Yahoo are to be considered relevant and respectful as Oracles.

Unfortunately searches must be done with proper skill in search topics, and there are a lot of rumor in google hiding important infos.

More any Amiga related topic sholud be searched carefully beacuse it could be lay hidden in some sites that not received enough relevance by Google.
some infos could be find here:
Some infos about Amiga Anywhere
and here:
some discussions in slashdot
Here some infos on the player of Amiga Anywhere and on the .ami file format of Amiga Anywhere similar in concept to the applets of Java (Sorry. Only available in Italian language. Advice: google-translate it.)
Quantum Leap Article about Amiga DE Player
How it works the Virtual Processor of AmigaDE Amiga/Anywhere.
It is not a 68000 emulator. Tao/Elate Intent OS which drive Amiga Anywhere does not work on any existing CPU. It runs on a completely emulated virtual CPU which creates a sort of bridge between embedded CPUs for palm computers and cell phones, X86, 68000, PPC, etcetera.
Quantum Leap AmigaDE Virtual Processor
Tao ElateOS Team interview on OSNews
Here are some infos about Amithlon and its very peculiar way to deal with hardware, also in Italian.
Quantum Leap Amithlon Unofficial FAQ
Quantum Leap Amithlon Test "on the road"
Also articles about Amiga virtual machines are disperse in various discussions of technicians or hidden into other topics.
See the last contribution in this article
(VM is available now!
by Robert Hurst - Sep 9th 2000 10:25:02)
So my conclusions are: Check better in internet if you need some evidences.
With respect,
--Raffaele Megabyte 16:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Google/Yahoo searches are not necessarily good ways of providing evidence of notability - but in their absense, what other sources are there of the term "Amiga virtual machine"? None of your references use this term to refer to Amiga emulation, and only a couple use it to refer to Amiga Anywhere. An article on Amiga Anywhere would be good, but clearly Amiga Anywhere should be the name of the article - at best, this article should be a redirect to that. Mdwh 21:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment You stated that:
>None of your references use this term to refer to Amiga emulation
Infact they are relating to a thing that is different from merely simple emulation.
Seems that you are not pointing two things:
1) You searched internet with Google in a very ingenuous way and searched only for Amiga VM. this is not a good :way to made searches.
2) There are at least 6 sites attesting there is a complete new phenomenon than emulation. Also there is almost :one showing even how it works an Amiga Virtual Processor.
Are you trying to negate evidences?
Are you tring to climb a mirror by saying that my references are not a proof that Amiga Virtual Machines are a different phenomenon than simple emulation?
Sure obections like yours raise only amongst Wikipedia users and are similar to those in co-owner-apartments-building trials.
With respect,
--Raffaele Megabyte 12:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Taking your references:
I can't comment on the Italian articles - it's not clear how articles in Italian are arguments in favour of notability of an English term.
So we have one guy commenting on Slashdot, and one guy commenting on a blog, using the term! Furthermore, the only references here are about Amiga Anywhere. If you wrote an article about that, and it included the phrase "virtual machine", I wouldn't really care. But writing an article Amiga Virtual Machine and then including Amiga Anywhere (along with a load of unrelated thing, i.e., emulators) is backwards. Surely the name "Amiga Anywhere" is more important and notable than "Amiga virtual machine"? Mdwh 11:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
>>>quote>>>
We the majority make the rules in the Wikipedia. The minority just has to deal with that.
We can delete this irrelevant article if we want to. (We do). All Amiga articles are irrelevant to society.
>>>end of quote>>>
This comments of you are offensive, also it gets an obscure shadow over the entire Wikipedia project for not being fair and not being a serious project of informing people without any personal POV.
Also I hope the majority of moderators will start a procedure like impeachment versus you if you are a moderator, or they should ban you if you are quite a common user like as me, as I believe you are.
Your words are atrocious.
Your words negate the concept of Wiki as free contribution place.
You discriminate us Amigans just as nazist did with jewish people, or like Stalinian communists who imprisoned dissidents in Gulags.
You should feel shame for what you wrote.
Sincerely,
--Raffaele Megabyte 12:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I edited the article and explained better the concept of Amiga Virtual Machine, so you could understand with more ease the differences between an emulator and an amiga virtual machine and decide with more "cognition of the cause".
Sure part of it should be spiltted into other articles, such as Amiga Anywhere, that is a complete topic of its own.
Hope my edit could be of some help for people who still thinks that there are no difference between a merely simple emulator and a Virtual Machine.
Sincerely,
--Raffaele Megabyte 11:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Comment You sure are aware of the concept of what an Encyclopedia is. aren't you?
Encyclopedias have to explain the reader even the concepts of dead things or you should avoid all these little articles such as Roman empire, or dinosaurs.
However even in a limited niche of market Amiga proves to be alive, so your proposal is:
- indecent: for the fact an encyclopedia like Wikipedia must be complete and serious;
- immoral: because it discriminates over 10.000 users of Amiga worldwide and an Encyclopedia should be impartial and not hide informations or be partial and discriminate as a revisionist nazist or communist book.
- Stupid: because it proofs you have personal attacking the Amiga platform and you have no serious arguments to hold your prejudices.
Sincerely,
--Raffaele Megabyte 12:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Respond You are not supposed to take offense. I just trying to explain how it works. People like reading about the Roman Empire and Dinosaurs. People don't like to read about Amiga Virtual Machines. Also your comparison is unfair: The Roman Empire and dinosaurs ceased production thousands of years ago. The Amiga virtual machines are being produced today in 2006. Yet in spite of that they are nonstandard, not advertised in mainstream media and have to be given away for free. They are not taught in any schools. They are so unpopular that they are not used as plugins for any browser. They are simply not notable, not useful, not interesting and should be forgotten.--AirportTerminal 14:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


Respond How fun you considered Roman empire and dinosaurs like objects that could have a production terms date of expiration.

Regarding any producing products I can refine my comparison if you like it. For example Apple PPC and Apple Motorola 680XX are no longer. Should they being deleted from Wikipedia? Sure not! But the moron who write that Amiga should be deleted from Wikipedia just intended it, just because it believes that Amiga are like dinosaurs an exinct argument. This is why I used such comparison terms.

>>>quote>>>

The Amiga virtual machines are being produced today in 2006. Yet in spite of that they are nonstandard, not advertised in mainstream media and have to be given away for free.

>>>end of quote>>>

So at least articles of wikipedia related to objects and products produced in limited quantities should be deleted, such as those regarding some guitars, or mixers, and or many other luxury objects.

Are you believe the readers should continuing considering Wikipedia as a serious place then?

>>>quote>>>

They are not taught in any schools.

>>> end of quote >>>

What a pity Amiga is not taught in schools. Amiga should deserve its place in the story of Information Technology along with Eniac, Altair, Sinclair ZX 80, Sinclair ZX Spectrum, Apple II, Commodore C64, First IBM PC XT, Xerox Alto, Xerox Star, Apple Lisa, Apple Macintosh, etc., etc. Amiga just is the first platform in the history on which was used the term multimedia with its all related meanings, as long as it inspired also Andy Warhol multimedia products. Amiga .mod sound files are used for a decade as a standard into PC audio cards. The Amiga audio sequencer program Bars and Pipes was bought by Microsoft and the concepts it inspired were introduced for the audio side of DirectX system of multimedia support libraries for Windows. And more, and more.

>>>quote>>>

They are so unpopular that they are not used as plugins for any browser.

>>>end of quote>>>

Please don't offend my intelligence, yours intelligence, and the intelligence of other readers. You are introduced a compltely un-related irrilevant argument.

Amiga Virtual Machines are used to pilote entire platforms and are not aimed at plug-in market for browsers.

Except the fact that AmigaAnywhere could be intended similar as Java, it is a completely different product running along with its hardware on compact cards. Just plug the compact card in any reader on any hardware from a PC to a Cell Phone, and it could run the same software, with the same behaviour and same screens and audio capabilities on different platforms. Such a product it has nothing of Java. Java is limited by the capabilites of the interpreter on any platform for whih it is written and by the GUI used to run it.

>>>quote>>>

They are simply not notable, not useful, not interesting and should be forgotten.

>>>end of quote>>>

Nice try!

But with your last statement

>>>quote>>>

and should be forgotten.

>>>end of quote>>>

You demonstrates that your positions are supported by nothing than hatred versus Amiga, and not by the politics by Wikipedia.

Why all this rage about Amiga my dear friend?

Sincerely? --Raffaele Megabyte 14:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


  • I can see now that Wikipedia is governed by Mob rule. Had I known this from the start I wouldn't have wasted my time submitting articles.--StoneGiant 17:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
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