Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yellow Pigs Day

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Verifiability has been established by the Harvard Crimson and SMS publications and (arguably) by the e-mail. However, Rklawton's point that a joke holiday celebrated by 1000 academics is not notable, has not been disputed by any evidence brought up here. -- Samir धर्म 07:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yellow Pigs Day

... and yet another thing made up in school one day. Less than 500 Google hits, many of them mirrors. It may be "real" in a few people's minds, but it's not real notable, and it really doesn't rate an article in an encyclopedia. Rklawton 22:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - very notable. I've heard this referenced on tv before (Family Guy). --24.31.114.157 22:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - 34 year tradition, apparent cult following, and noted in 5 (at least) external sources. Seems notable to me. --Daniel Olsen 00:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • External links are not references. These indicate that quite markedly. The Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics pages, for example, say nothing at all about what a Yellow Pig Math Day is, and provide nothing to substantiate any of the content of this article. The Jargon File entry for "random numbers" doesn't say anything at all about Yellow Pigs, also, but simply gives a link to the one of the same web pages given as external links here. The Everything2 node at least mentions Yellow Pigs. But if you actually read the entire article, down to the bottom, you'll see that it cites the very same web site as the Jargon File links to as one of its two sources for information, the other being the second external link given in this article. In fact, everything here appears to rely upon those two web pages as their sole sources. Uncle G 14:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Commentary on external sources:
  1. link: some guy's home page. Not notable.
  2. link: some girl's home page. Still not notable.
  3. link: Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics. Exceedingly local.
  4. link: another nobody's web page. Yawn.
  5. link: now this is interesting. It explains that the originator is actually not a notable mathematician. Rklawton 00:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • On the contrary, it shows Spivak to be influential as an educator, though not a research mathematician. His textbooks are in print and have gone through multiple editions. Similarly Kelly is verifiably the founder of a program with hundreds of alumni that is highly regarded among summer math programs. I'll grant that this doesn't have a direct bearing on this debate. Sho Uemura 03:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I would not consider any of the above links to be reliable sources. Specifically they mainly fall under the category of Self-published sources. I would be happy to change my opinion on this article if other sources can be found, otherwise I am left to think it is just a small group of people who are aware of and participate in such a thing. DrunkenSmurf 00:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Yellow Pigs Day is an inside joke and a geek holiday (and thus would be unlikely to have reliable sources), but it is real, it does have history, and it is reasonably well-known among young mathematicians. In addition, Yellow Pigs Day and HCSSiM are very closely linked (Yellow Pigs Day is a big event at HCSSiM) and although HCSSiM gets only about a thousand Google hits it is nevertheless one of the largest summer math programs for high-schoolers. It may not be a mainstream article, but I feel it to be important enough in its community to warrant being in an encyclopedia. Qqwref 06:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Please note that User:Qqwref has approximately two (or maybe four) edits to Wikipedia. Rklawton 16:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • If something has no sources, then it is unverifiable and doesn't belong here. Wikipedia articles must be verifiable by editors and readers. You've just told us that this article very probably isn't, and have thus made a strong case for its deletion, even though you have put the word "keep" at the start of the paragraph. If you want to make a case for keeping this article, please cite some actual sources. Uncle G 14:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - First: HCSSiM is HARDLY "exceedingly local"; this year, its students ranged from China to California to Atlanta to New York. Second: HCSSiM is a 34-year-old program; let's estimate it to have taken, on average, 40 students a year throughout its existence. (This is a bit low; the program accepts around 40 per year now, but in the past there were closer to 60 per summer.) Then there are at least 1300 alumni of the program who should be familiar with Yellow Pigs Day. Finally, while David Kelly is supposedly a "non-notable mathematician," there is a Wikipedia article on him, and I'd argue that he's notable for creating one of the longest-running math programs for high school students, out of which several notable people emerged. --Fermatprime 12:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's kinda curious that --User:Fermatprime a self-admitted "hard core inclusionist" doesn't post anything on Wikipedia for six months and then comes back to specifically respond to this AfD. Two of the three "keep" votes appear to be from school kids/meat puppets. Rklawton 16:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
    • There is absolutely no reason to insult others! Are you trying to start a flamewar or what? Qqwref 16:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree it's important not to trade insults. However, would you mind pointing one out? Each of my points above is accurate and verifiable. Rklawton 17:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The Everything2 node that Rklawton pointed to is actually about Michael Spivak, not Kelly. Uncle G 14:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd say the fact that it is an inside joke for a math geeks should pretty much spell this article's doom. Wikipedia is not the place to publish inside jokes.Rklawton 16:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
    • This page has no less merit than Category:In-jokes, Category:Geek_holidays, and Category:Humorous_observances. It seems that Wikipedia is a place to publish inside jokes, especially ones that are well-known! Since almost none of the pages in those categories are nominated for deletion, and the Wikipedia:Deletion_policy does not seem to support your position, your argument doesn't hold water. Qqwref 17:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
      • If it's well known, then you'll have sources that demonstrate this fact. You don't, so it isn't. Rklawton 17:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Yes, I don't edit Wikipedia as much as I should, and when I do, it's normally to correct spelling/grammar, etc. If I read more articles that desperately needed that kind of attention, I'd edit them. But I think it's safe to say that a holiday familiar to well over 1000 people qualifies as well-known, and you yourself have linked to a source demonstrating that it's familiar to that many. Perhaps it would be most agreeable to rename to "Yellow Pig" (which returns 32,000 results on Google, so it passes one test) and add more information about yellow pigs in general. Also, I've been registered for about two years, so don't call me a meat puppet. --Fermatprime 20:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep
  1. As stated within the article, Yellow Pigs Day is an inherent component of Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics.
  2. HCSSiM is not local, much less "exceedingly local". Aside from a few staff members, there are virtually no local participants. Participants come from all over the nation (and beyond).
  3. Clearly, this is not a "thing made up in school one day". The HCCSiM summer program and the associated Yellow Pigs Day has a long tradition and a long history.
  4. If Eric_Lander, of the Human_Genome_Project, thinks it worth attending and presenting at the Yellow Pig Math Days conference, maybe the topic should be kept. [See [1].]
  5. If researchers from IBM, Sun Microsystems, and about two dozen major universities think it is worth attending and presenting at the Yellow Pig Math Days conference, maybe the topic should be kept. [See [2].]
  6. HCSSiM (and Yellow Pigs Day) has been funded, in part, by the AMS Epsilon Fund. [See Notices of the AMS, November 2003, page 1221.] The "Epsilon" fund was created by the mathematical community to honor Paul Erdös. I hope nobody considers Paul Erdös to be a non-notable mathematician.
  7. I do not consider the references to non-notable mathematicians to be particularly civil, and may actually be libelous.
  8. As far as verifiability and citations, I refer you to [3]. According to the whois database, the domain is owned by Hampshire College. Therefore, Hampshire College is considered the legal publisher of the Web Site. This site clearly meets the burden of evidence for verifiability, because
     • the information is published by a major university, whose reputation is not in question;
     • the information is published by legitimate professional researchers; and
     • even if this is considered to be a self-published or dubious source, as stated in the rules, the information is an acceptable source because it is relevant to an article about the organization, itself.
  9. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. It is my understanding that wikipedia pages should not contain commercial solicitations. The chief stone-thrower's personal page offers his services at $400 per day. Perhaps it is the User:Rklawton page that should be deleted. RVerser 23:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment and yet another meat puppet whose only contributions to Wikipedia can be read above. This does little to establish the credibility of the article.
    • Response Yes, this is my first post. I tried not to be repetitive. And nobody who has posted in this discussion solicited my comments. I find the term "meat puppet" to be derogatory and offensive. [If this is the culture of Wikipedia, I am disappointed.] A lifetime of work from two fine mathematicians is labeled as "not notable", and several additional Web pages and Web page authors are similarly labeled as "not notable" and/or "another nobody". [If this is the culture of Wikipedia, I am utterly horrified!] My account was created with my real name, and I'm not trying to hide anything. Please tell me why my numbered comments "do little to establish the credibility of the article"? I attempted to answer every issue that was raised by those asking for deletion of this article. I had never heard of Yellow Pigs Day before six months ago. The encyclopedia article was useful to me, and I was able to verify the existence of both the conference and the day. I also note that this article has existed for nearly 2.5 years, if I interpret the History page correctly. Why does it now come under scrutiny? RVerser 02:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Article duration isn't a voting matter. Cruft is cruft no matter how long it takes to find. As per another novice supporter: Yellow Pigs Day is an inside joke and a geek holiday (and thus would be unlikely to have reliable sources). Once you become familiar with Wikipedia and its policies, you'll undertand why this disqualifies the article. Of course, we don't expect novice editors to understand what Wikipedia is all about, though many of us are willing to help. It's that very fact, that most of this article's supporters are novices and unfamiliar with polices, that I'm bringing to the closing administrator's attention. Read up on the links I posted on your talk page. Read also WP:V and WP:NOT, and you'll better understand what topics qualify for an article. The short of it is that one department in one college (not a major university as stated above) has a tradition. That's nice for them. It's also not encyclopedic for us. Read up on our policies, though. We can benefit from editors with your enthusiasm. Rklawton 03:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Once again: That web site at http://www.hcssim.org/ contains zero information that supports the content of this article. It has lots of information about a mathematics conference, but nothing at all that bears any similarity to the content of this article. Uncle G 08:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Hey Rklawton, why don't you read WP:NPA? You've been commenting on users a lot lately. Stop now or action will be taken. Also, as for a reference, I cite the following personal communication with sarah-marie belcastro, received on 8/21/2006:

"Hi!

I'm writing regarding the discussion on Wikipedia about the possible deletion of the article on Yellow Pigs Day. (I don't have a wiki login, and it would be silly to create one just to contribute factual information to a discussion there.) I am one of the Co-Directors of the Hampshire College Summer Studies in Mathematics, and a faculty member in Mathematics at Smith College. I did a little bit of checking into Wiki's definition of "reliable source"; I count as a reliable source because I am speaking within my fields of expertise, and it's easily verifiable that I have this field of expertise (I'm listed on the faculty at Smith, in the Mathematics Genealogy Project, on my graduate advisor's home page, etc.). Anyone who thinks this email has been falsified may contact me for confirmation of its validity.

I'd like to clarify some issues that seem somewhat murky in the discussion. For example, HCSSiM is not local but national in scope and permeates the American professional mathematics community. We are the second-oldest of the five national-level programs for high-ability high-school students. The program has more than 1550 alumns, all of whom have experienced YP Day. We do not explain YP Day on our webpage just as we do not explain the significance of the yellow pig or the number seventeen; nevertheless it is a holiday which we celebrate each year and about which questions are frequently asked. (Our website is primarily there for recruiting purposes and secondarily for alumn use. We're not in the business of educating the public, unlike encyclopedias which have public edification among their primary purposes.) There are mathematicians outside the HCSSiM community who celebrate Yellow Pigs Day. In fact, most of the time when I run into a colleague who is aware of YP Day, he/she assumes that the primary connection is to Mike Spivak rather than to HCSSiM. Spivak, by the way, is considered a notable mathematician by the mathematics community---in fact, I'd heard of him long before I'd heard of HCSSiM.

Now, this information may not convince anyone that the article is worth keeping, but at least there's now a reliable source to cite.

--sarah-marie belcastro." Qqwref 21:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I have added a newspaper reference that verifies the majority of the article's content. I suggest that those who have expressed opinions on this nomination in regard to sourcing and verifiability reconsider them according to notability criteria. NatusRoma | Talk 22:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Yellow Pigs' Day is verifiably the creation of two notable mathematicians. It is verifiably celebrated, or at least known to, over a thousand HCSSiM alumni (a fair handful of whom are notable by Wikipedia standards) and possibly others. The Harvard Crimson is a reliable published source, and therefore most of the content of this article is verifiable - the details of the HCSSiM celebration of Yellow Pigs' Day can be verified through photos put online by HCSSiM alumni. Sho Uemura 22:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. As already noted by others, YP day is celebrated by more than 1000 people, largely within an international academic community of mathematicians.

For references to YP day and the associated HCSSiM program, see:

• The Harvard Crimson, 1982
• AMS, 2003
• AMS, 1998
• AMS epsilon awards
• HCSSiM, 2006

--Gruepig 05:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per the above. —Nightstallion (?) 13:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.