Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voidism (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect. Chick Bowen 03:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voidism (2nd nomination)

Voidism (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This was speedy tagged. I removed the tag because this is a properly constructed article on a valid topic. The content, though, may be complete cobblers, but I am not in a position to judge. This is a procedural nomination to enable those with knowledge in this area to make a determination. I therefore abstain. TerriersFan 02:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - from the research I just did, it appears to be a legitimate Buddhist belief. --Ineffable3000 04:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I share TerriersFan's hesitation as I too know little of the area. I do suspect it may be a hoax as the three users who have contributed content to this page (one registered user and 2 IPs) have only ever edited this article or added links to this article to others. The argument on the talk page is quite suspicious, especially following the AfD for Janicism. WJBscribe 04:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ineffable3000 does seem to be correct actually, there are a lot of diverse hits for Buddhism + voidism if one does a google search...WJBscribe 04:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete Patent nonsense. Firstly "voidism" is not a Buddhist belief. A Google search of "Buddhism Voidism" (ommiting wikipedia.org) brings about 532 hits. A look through a World Religions textbook (Schmidt, R, Sager G, Carney G, et al. (2005). Patterns of Religion. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth/Thomson Learning.) gives nothing. A tenuously similar Buddhist concept, Shunyata, meaning "emptiness" or "voidness", which yields 50,400 Google hits (again, ommiting wikipedia.org) and is located in aforementioned textbook. It seems to be used in a Buddhist sense by those who don't know the Sanskrit term.

Of the two citations found in the Voidism article itself, the hyperlink reference is stated in the Voidism article to be "academically well-known" is a link to a GeoCities cite. While the author does appear to have some connection to [ http://www2.creighton.edu/Creighton University], I find it odd that it is hosted on a GeoCities rather than the University's website. Furthermore, it seems to be an academic essay, but the essay itself cites no other work. Spelling mistakes and made-up terms do not lend to its credibility, either. The second citation appears to have been copied from the citations from Buddhism. As I stated above, I did not find voidism used in a Buddhist religious context in Patterns of Religion, and I doubt that it will be found in the cited book, though I have no way of making sure.

I highly doubt that there is anything that can save this article. --Limetom 11:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete or redirect - First i thought Void (Buddhism) didn't exist. I started searching the net, especifically google books and found nothing that says such thing exists apart from buddhism. Ineffable3000's argument above is correct except that we already have Void (Buddhism). -- Szvest Ω ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 11:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Shunyata which appears to be the correct name based on Limetom's comment. - Mgm|^(talk) 13:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, 100% bullshit and original research, although calling it "research" is probably giving it too much credit. Created solely to advertise the author's website. Author (or someone who has the exact same beliefs and writing style) has been adding this kind of stuff to the Nothing article for a while now; almost time for a ban, IMO. I also don't see how keeping a redirect from a term that people who know what they're talking about don't use is helpful. Recury 14:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The "shunya" is a Sanskrit term literally meaning "void", and is a synonym for "zero" - you may consult Georges Ifrah's "Universal History of Numbers" or simply google define it, or look it up anywhere. In that particular book, which rests upon much original research into the history of numerical concepts, and 0 itself - the most important of all - Buddhism is inextricably linked as the most prominent of early mystical philosophies of the void. Mahayana Buddhism, specifically through Nagarjuna, espouses the void to be all that can exist, and that form of Buddhism leans extremely towards nihilism in its solely-void belief. Shunyavadin (voidists) is a validly wide-used term to describe Buddhists, of every existing sect - as is shunyavada, which literally translates as "voidism" - and Nirvana is defined as the void, which is asserted as Buddhism's ultimate reality, the "true world", in Nagarjuna's terms; thus its Buddhist connection with shunya/shunyata, void/voidness is entirely accurate, from whatever reference; in fact, it seems a lesser known - yet well-established - connection, thus justifying such an article's creation. As for the connections with 0 and mathematics, they seem entirely valid, and I'd presume since Creighton is a catholic institution, they probably would be less inclined to host a voidist essay on a university website; the essay seems entirely valid as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HelloThere1 (talk • contribs).

• Comment Shunyata, if you read the article correctly, is not anywhere close to nihilism. In fact, the lead states that Buddhist doctrine considers nihilism a deusion. The article is not about voidism as a Buddhist concept. The article is about how the void equates to 0. If it was about void as a Buddhist concept, I would have simply said delete and redirect to Shunyata. However, it is not. It appears, as I said above, to be patent nonsense. Furthermore, there is aboslutely no reason why a Catholic, or any religiously affiliated institution cannot publish a scholarly paper that talks about other religions. The paper itself, as I pointed out above, cites no other work and is not of the greatest quality. The only connection it has to Creighton University is that the author has an email account at creighton.edu. --Limetom 21:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Shunyata, the proper term, per Limetom. --tjstrf talk 20:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The article itself is not about voidism in terms of a Buddhist concept, but as its own concept. I think people are missing this point. As I said above there is only one, not very reputable source verifying that claim. --Limetom 20:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Even then, it openly admits to be wholly derived from the Buddhist concept, and it's a logical search term, hence redirection. --tjstrf talk 21:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This is patently advertising. How can anyone not see that? Xiner 22:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The philosophy is gibberish, the alledged link to Buhhhism is non-existent, and the whole article build up to a advertisement for a website.--Anthony.bradbury 23:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - The philosophy is entirely valid; the connection to Buddhism has been entirely established. Obviously the subject is a larger extension of the concept of voidism as an ontology superseding its limit to Buddhism, although that particular philosophy is cited as a prominent example . . . the void is a universal concept, the same as 0 - 0 being equivalent to the void even in Buddhism, yet of course not nihilistic - and philosophies have been developed of it around the world outside of Buddhism - see Plotinus, who is cited in the article - this article clearly represents an elucidation of voidism beyond a view of nihilism, to which the notion of 0 has been erroneously inextricably linked in western thought; that purpose alone justifies the article. It is also concerned in connecting epistemological thought around the basis of 0, thus transcending a purely religious or metaphysical connection with Buddhism, and validating its independence. The essay seems of amply sufficient quality; a reason a catholic institution wouldn't officially endorse its stance is due to the certainty asserted towards the ideas in the essay, and perhaps it was a personal wish of the author to have no such official connection with the institution. --HelloThere1 22:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC) — HelloThere1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep This seems entirely basic and valid; the connections are made. What's the dispute? --Jeromes 23:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)— Jeromes (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Vote spamming won't help get the article kept. --tjstrf talk 23:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Valid points will however. --Jeromes 23:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I'm quoting an article from Wikipedia on Cosmology (Metaphysics): "Acosmism is the belief that neither the self nor the universe has ever existed. This is held by some forms of strict Advaita Vedanta, a Hindu philosophy. The Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, whose beliefs are called voidism, or nihilism (in the Eastern, rather than the Western sense), believed that the world neither exists, nor does it not exist." This clearly confirms and validates not only definitively the use of the term "voidism" in the aforementioned proper context, but it represents a branching beyond Buddhism alone in its Avaita Vedanta reference to identical views - that is, selfless (void) philosophies the void clearly applying to all philosophies avowing an absence or a falsification of any notions of static identity or attachment (justifying a generalized voidism category to include all such views not limited to Buddhism or even the East, as are referenced in the article), the primarily singular sense of application of the void, even in Buddhism (another Wikiquote): "The Suñña Sutta, part of the Pali Canon, relates that the monk Ananda, the attendant to Gautama Buddha asked, "It is said that the world is empty [void], the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" The Buddha replied, "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty."" Voidism is the general term for this universal phenomenon, requiring elucidation. --HelloThere1 01:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Nagarjuna refined shunyata, which I stated above as translating to "emptiness" or "voidness", not "voidism". And there is no "Eastern" meaning to nihilism that I'm aware of, especially if the term was invented by Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi in the 18th century. The article you gave should be using a link to shunyata, not the translation of "voidism". Shunyata does not prove that the voidism theory, as presented in the article is universal in any sense. In fact, only using Buddhist philosophy limits it, because if it is Buddhist, or based on Buddhist thought, it is not universal. Again, I would like to point out that adding Buddhism into this discussion is confusing the issue.

The article has two reliable, but not nessecarily relevant sources. The first is a World Religions textbook made to back up the use of shunyata in the article, but it appears that it may have simply been copied from the Buddhism article. The other reliable source is a book attempting of cover, as the publisher calls it, "every aspect of nothingness." While this is a vaild source, from the quick look I gave it, it seems to be talking more about nihilism than this article's theory, voidism. The theory that the article is written about is covered in an unreliable source, namely a self-published webiste which was written by a non-notable author. According to both WP:V and WP:RS, this is not a valid source. --Limetom 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Not only have you successfully failed to refute anything previously mentioned in the slightest, you haven't brought up a single valid point. The widely referencable term "shunyavadin" (shunya = void; vadin = ists) and its application to Nagarjuna's "middle-way system" sufficiently validates beyond further necessity the translatable (and widely-used) term "voidism". You seem to be emphasizing "shunyata" (meaning "voidness") while entirely displaying your ignorance of its root, the term "SHUNYA" (literally meaning only "void", no -ness or emptiness), a literal synonym for zero whose etymology is in fact in the extremely reputable source John D. Barrow's popular "Book of Nothing", which also links the concept to Buddhism. So, that totally cancels all your hopes to dismiss the connection of Voidism - a specific philosophy of the "void" - as it is established with Buddhism. As previously established, since this voidism pertains specifically entirely to the denial of multiplicity, duality, or the concept of a static aggregate, egoistic sort of "self", it is a universal philosophy of monism in its purest form which is to be found the world over and is an alternative indeed to an erroneous perception of voidist nihilism which you've also confirmed, which itself again justifies a specification in its own article for enlightenment. QED. --HelloThere1 03:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep A rarily praticed but actual philosophy. I will cite my resources later. MrMacMan 07:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• KeepI do not like to delete concepts in people's religions, even if relatively unfamiliar.DGG 07:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.