Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toby Meltzer (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. WjBscribe 01:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toby Meltzer

Toby Meltzer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This is just not a plastic surgeon who meets any standard of notability with my field to merit inclusion. He is a somewhat obscure super-teriary specialist with no signifigant academic work or career publishing in our journals. There are some nice elements of the procedures he does that could possibly be merged into some of the other transgender related surgery articles, but Dr. Meltzer himself I feel doesn't really meet the standards of whom I understand wikipedia intends to include Droliver 07:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This nomination was malformed; I'm fixing it now. --ais523 08:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. Appears to be the leading specialist worldwide in his field, which is not that obscure or tertiary. Does WP:BIO really require the leading specialist in a field to have published? "Publish or perish" is a common academic problem, but does it apply to Wikipedia? --Charlene 12:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep as one of the most notable surgeons in his field: 4150 ghits. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Distinctly one of the most notable surgeons in his field as the previous AfD clearly noted. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I notice he had cited only 1 articles and managed not to give any current academic affiliation. Checked PubMed, and he has published a total of 7 articles total over the last 8 years in specialty journals. On what basis do we say he his a leader in his field? Because he says so?

Look at the sources. One book from a major publisher refers to him on a single page, and another book from a minor publisher does the same. His CV lists also 7 abstracts, and 9 other presentations, including a poster session. The pictures of from either his own site, or a commercial site run by an MD in the area of his former practice,". There are societies and awards for surgeons, and there is no evidence he has ever won any of them. Rather, there is good evidence he didn't,because if he had , this article would surely say so. Neither does his website. He is a member of the American Society of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons which is good, but then only 3 local societies. I checked two other plastic surgeons at random: 17 societies for one, 19 for the other, both including the main one, "Fellow, American College of Surgeons." A FACS is a distinguished surgeon. But he is not one of that group. Nor is he a member of the American College of Surgeons, a more inclusive group of notable surgeons. He is not associated with any major Arizona teaching hospital, or a clinical faculty member of an Arizona medical school.

What i do learn from the website is that this article does not quite honestly give his credentials. It lists him as clinical professor of plastic surgery at OHSU, while he was actually an assistant professor. The article lists him as a fellow, but this is not in his CV (A fellow is a sub-specialist in advanced training after the completion of full residence training in the speciality. It would have been an appropriate step, if there was any evidence he had done it.)

As for the ghits, there's about one genuine one per 30--an announcement of a lecture. . Many blogs and testimonials, personally published sources, but this would be expected for this subspecialty.--I looked at the first 50 one at a time: One of them says "Unfortunately, Toby Meltzer has since relocated to Scottsdale, Arizona, having been unable to find a hospital in Portland that fit his requirements and would extend him operating room privileges" & blames it on his willingness to do FTM surgeries. I also see "Toby Meltzer considered the standards of care to be mere guidelines. " explained by gratitude that he apparently operates on patients without the standard waiting period. (neither of this should be added to the article, for they are blog postings or the equivalent. I did not come across the many posted complaints that accompany some other surgeons. )

Looking at additional patient support web sites, he does seem to be notable in that special group, and that did cause me to switch from weak delete to keep--just as a scientist can be notable popularly though not professionally, so can a physician. I think I finally got the right impression. He seems to be a charismatic maverick--possibly he does not choose to pursue the usual professional activities, rather than being unqualified.

But I do say keep -- and then all the unsupported information will be removed. The number of his surgeries is unsupported; that he developed the operations is unsupported; and the description of the techniques belong in a more general article unless he can be shown to have developed them. DGG 04:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.