Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Wiseguys: Comedy You Can't Refuse

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The expansion of the article since the AfD began only contains one additional claim to notability, and that is a trivial mention on TV news. Non-trivial independent coverage has not been shown, which is what would be required to negate the consensus for deletion here, and the presence of editors continuing to argue for deletion following expansion gives me no reason to think that those who argued for deletion before it have failed to revisit the article; and if they had, would have changed their minds. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 00:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Wiseguys: Comedy You Can't Refuse

The Wiseguys: Comedy You Can't Refuse (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable improv group. Google search on "The Wiseguys: Comedy You Can't Refuse" nets only 10 unique hits on 17 returns, removing Wikipedia related entries leaves only three. Wider search on ["The Wiseguys" improv Memphis] widens a bit, with 133unique/883 total. Fails Wikipedia:Notability (comedy). Delete MikeWazowski 05:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Additional comment: Article creator Lawcomic appears to be the founder of this group. Definitely violates self-promotion and autobiography guidelines. MikeWazowski 05:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Fails comedy guidelines. The award they won doesn't seem sufficiently notable to include them. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 05:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, non-notable group, and the award doesn't seem to change my opinion, per Brad Beattie. Looks like a potential WP:COI page as well. Insert your own joke about "article you can refuse" here. --Kinu ^t/_c 06:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Unholy trinity. (Advertisement, Non-notable, Vanity) Spinach Dip 09:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• This is a deletion you can't refuse as per above. MER-C 09:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Such a specific award in a local comic talent show isn't enough. We need some verification of their notability from reliable sources. Based on the nom's ghits I can't see that happening. Likely WP:COI and, as we all know, Wikipedia is not an advertising service. -- IslaySolomon | talk 12:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: Conflict of interest, no reliable sources, unverified.
  • Keep: The above problems I cited in an earlier post has been resolved and this article has been expanded to be worthy of keeping. _{And where did my old sig go?} Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Do Not Delete

This is my argument for not deleting The WiseGuys Wikipedia article

The WiseGuys meet the Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) in the following ways:

1) There are multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person/group/show and its creators/producers, such as articles in The Commercial Appeal and the Memphis Flyer. They have also performed on local television news/entertainment programs.

Comment - Google search on Commercial Appeal website on the terms ("Commercial Appeal" Wiseguys improv) brings up only two listings for performances, not articles. Similar results on site search for Memphis Flyer. No evidence of multiple non-trivial published works here. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

See argument placed by Lawcomic below.Apatronoftruth 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

2) One of the troupe members, Larry Clark, is a world-renowned clown and magician. He was most recently seen on television's "America's Got Talent" which was seen worldwide. Larry Clark has also toured with Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus, Cirque Du Soliel, Cirque Magnifique, Jim Rose Circus Sideshow Jim Rose Circus Sideshow, all of which are internationally touring shows.

Comment - All fine and good, but this article is not about Larry Clark, but the Wiseguys as a whole. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - The guidelines for Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) clearly states:

A comedian, group, or theatrical show is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:

3. Contains at least one comedian who was once a part of or later joined a group or show that is otherwise notable.

Unless you are saying that clowning is not a form of comedy, this meets Wikipedia:Notability (comedy). Apatronoftruth 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

3) Though it was it's first year, the SouthEastern Comedy Arts Festival was a "major comedy show" in that there were troupes from four different states in attendance.

Comment - Google search on "Southeastern Comedy Arts Festival" brings back only 79 hits, 35 unique. Very low returns for a "major comedy show" - also hard to classify something that was held for the first time this year as major. Given that the festival was apparently held in Starksville, MS, near where three states come together, I also don't find the "four states" qualifier to be much of a help. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

4) The award, "best shortform improv troupe", won at the above mentioned festival, was accomplished by beating seven of the best and brightest improv companies in the southeast region.

Comment - And apparently we must take your word for this, as I can find no documentation or citations on how "bright" the other contestants were. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

4) In January 2004, The WiseGuys performed onstage with The English Lovers, an improv troupe from Vienna, Austria.

Comment - This is relevant how? Google search on ("The English Lovers" improv) brings back only 9 unique hits on 29 returns, which is nearly as bad as the initial returns on "The Wiseguys". I would consider them to be non-notable as well. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As one of only three improvisational theater companies in Memphis, Tn, The WiseGuys have been a major feature in the growing comedy community. They are a feature at the new Comedy, TN Comedy Club and perform out of the city as well.

Comment - "Major feature" is a subjective term, and does not appear to be borne out by the available information. I'm sure it's an important group to you (since you appear to be connected to them), but it's not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. This is not an advertising platform for you. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - The guidelines for Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) clearly states:

A comedian, group, or theatrical show is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:

4. Has become a prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city

Therefore, this meets Wikipedia:Notability (comedy). Apatronoftruth 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - And what independent third-party verification do you offer that the Wiseguys are a prominent representative of the local scene? Right now, we only have your word for this. MikeWazowski 14:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Response" - In every article that can be found about improv in Memphis, it states that The WiseGuys is only one of either two or three shows of its kind in Memphis. As one of three companies of its kind in the local scene that perform the notable style (i.e. short form improv), The WiseGuys meet the above mentioned Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) requirement.

They are "prominent", as is easily verified by looking at the number of shows they perform.

Also, please remember, from the guidelines:

Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; likewise, the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb which some editors choose to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter. Apatronoftruth 10:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition to what is stated above, The Wiseguys have been profiled in "The Commercial Appeal", Memphis's daily newspaper. A link to the article is listed on the Wikipedia page. --Lawcomic 15:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - The link to the page goes to the Wiseguys website. Google search (linked above) of the Commercial Appeal website finds no trace of said article. MikeWazowski 15:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Well, the article is clearly from The Commercial Appeal. The paper's archive does not include all articles. A simple review of the article hosted on The Wiseguys site shows it is an actual newspaper article, including a byline from Lawrence Buser, whose work can be found on numerous articles in the Appeal.--Lawcomic 15:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Most paper's web archives do tend to keep all articles these days, especially one as recent as 2003. Regardless, it's one article - hardly multiple non-trivial published works, which is the more relevant point here. MikeWazowski 15:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Actually, throughout this discussion there have been two Commercial Appeal articles mentioned. While I can no longer find them on the CA archives, they are either reprinted or mentioned: Here Commercial Appeal article on Joey Hack and here Reference to a Commercial Appeal article on MCIA, Wiseguys and Freakengine and the troupe is mentioned in the Starkville Daily News Article on SECAF. In addition, the troupe has appeared on television and radio in Memphis.--Lawcomic 16:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Another Citation - Here is a blurb from the May 18, 2005 issue of The Memphis Flyer recommending the Wiseguys' scheduled performance that night http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Content?oid=oid%3A3527. It is not a feature article, simply an example of The Wiseguys' shows being acknowleged and recommended by a newspaper dedicated to the Memphis entertainment scene.

Furthermore, the Southeastern Comedy Arts Alliance Festival is not a "local talent show". It was a festival of improvisational groups from across the Southeast region. --Lawcomic 17:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The above is good enough for me. •Elomis• 21:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep

The Wiseguys is a working improvisational comedy troupe in Memphis Tennessee. The cast currently consists of nine performers. They entertain audiences at regular performances at real venues such as The Full Moon Club and Comedy, TN (http://www.comedytennessee.com). On Dec. 8-9 the Wiseguys will be the headline act at The South Street Comedy Club in Jackson, TN (http://www.baudos.com/SouthSt.html).

This group exists, has performed in the Mid-South for years, continues to expand into new venues and is available for booking right now (http://www.wiseguysimprov.com/.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Brenner (talk • contribs) 21:42, November 15, 2006. Also this user's only contributions to date are to this AfD. MikeWazowski 15:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Rewrite and Fast the article as it stands needs to be deleted. It makes no claim to notability. But if the stuff above is added to make a claim to notability, then I'll support as a Strong Keep.Balloonman 23:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

  Keep Article has been improved significantly since nominated. I'm inclined to keep articles where people are willing to work on them. Two comments on the article, watch out for peacock terms---eg things that look good by have no real meaning, EG the comment about the group having a long run. Also, the members of the group should be pared down. It looks as if there might be two people who are notable. The rest should be deleted or (at most) listed side by side because most groups are subject to change, which means that you should state, "as of November 2006 the group consisted of..."Balloonman 16:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Only reference is an award for wining the Best One-Liner which was Nothing dirty touches my car, unless it’s a girl. & Best Shortform Improv Troupe(best of that festival mind you). Also the title is right off a poster, Comedy You Can't refuse, blatent advertising. I say delete it, if proper references can be provided then I may support the recreation, but this is no start. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 01:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see the new and improved entry and comment on what, if anything else, can be done differently to ensure acceptance in Wikipedia. For example, is there a way to change the name of the article to get rid of the "comedy you can't refuse" tagline?

Again, thank you for your consideration.Apatronoftruth 09:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong KEEP: Every improv comedy festival hands out awards, and each of those awards goes to the "best of that festival". Go figure. The point is, the SouthEastern Comedy Arts Festival was held in October, 2006 on the campus of Mississippi State University and The Wiseguys were named Best Short-Form Improv Troupe (http://www.secaa.org/wordpress/). The event was reported on in the Starkville (MS) Daily News (http://www.starkvilledailynews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=660&Itemid=128). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by E.S. Roberts (talk • contribs) November 16, 2006 16:45 (UTC). - User's only five contributions to date appear to be on pages connected to The WiseGuys.MikeWazowski 16:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

which, of course, is irrelavent and does not nullify the cited newspaper article covering the event and the Wiseguys' participation in it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.154.235.53 (talk • contribs) .User's recent edits to The Wiseguys article have been primarily vandalism. MikeWazowski 14:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete - the group's only legitimate claim to notability that I see is the presence of Larry Clark. It's difficult to gauge just how notable Clark is, however. Wikipedia does not have an article for Larry Clark (clown), and it's difficult to use Google as a gauge of his notability because there is another very famous Larry Clark - the director of Kids. Clark has certainly toured with some impressive circuses, but I'm unclear about the magnitude of his contribution to those circuses. By analogy, I'd argue that not every backup dancer who tours with a major star necessarily absorbs the notability of that star. --Hyperbole 21:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - As far as your analogy is concerned, it is Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) that sets up the guideline to which you are objecting. I am just trying to make the entry conform to Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) requirements. Nothing in Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) states that the person "who was once a part of or later joined a group or show that is otherwise notable" needs to have a large "magnitude of his contribution". If that is your only objection to the entry, does this argument change your mind?Apatronoftruth 02:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - As Hyperbole mentioned, LOTS of people have toured with Ringling Bros. and the other shows - that doesn't make them inherently notable, especially since we have no way of knowing how long they toured, what kind of status, if any, they had in those groups, the reasons for their departure, etc. As to Clark's appearance on America's Got Talent, it does appear that he was on the show, but based on several accounts [1] [2] [3] [4], it seems he did very poorly and only appeared once. MikeWazowski 14:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - Not to split hairs, but the requirement, according to the guidelines of Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) is not that the person joining the group be a main feature in a nationally touring show or that he be particualarly good (in fact, is it not possible to be notable for being bad at what you do?), just that he "was once a part of or later joined a group or show that is otherwise notable". I still contend that, according to the wording of Wikipedia:Notability (comedy), this entry meets the requirements set for notablity.Apatronoftruth 18:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - How on earth are subjective reviews of Larry Clark's performance relevant to this discussion? You appear to be taking uncalled for potshots on this particular point. --Lawcomic 20:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Users Apatronoftruth, David Brenner, E.S. Roberts, Molliekoalie and the following IP addresses (147.154.235.51, 147.154.235.52, 147.154.235.53) appear to be making only edits to the Wiseguys page and this discussion. Seems like strong case for Astroturfing and WP:SOCK. 74.226.112.101 16:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Response - An odd comment to be made by someone using only their IP address. If you are accusing me of using sock puppets, I would ask that whoever is in charge check my IP addresses to verify I am seperate and apart from the others.--Lawcomic 21:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ditto for me. Check the IPs. Apatronoftruth 07:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone else?

So, activity seems to have quieted down on the debate over this entry's fate. It seems the opinions are pretty well evenly matched. I will say that after the revamped edit of the entry, it seems two people changed their minds to support keeping the entry. And since the person who nominated the entry for deletion has made edits to the entry to help it comply with standards, I can only assume he supports keeping it as well.

Anyone care to tell me what happens now? Apatronoftruth 05:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be closed within the next 24 hours or so by an admin. --W.marsh 17:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

YES: I think it should also be noted that Wiseguys founder, Joe Leibovich, hosted an episode of the very notable TV show "America, Apparently, Never Reads a Book". This episode featured the hilarious reactions of St. Louis Zoo patrons watching desert tortoises mate as well as the surprised responses of people using a drinking fountain that dispensed root beer.

• Delete per nomination. Even with article cleanup, group lacks notability. Most the media mentions seem trivial, in that they mention the Wiseguys along with other groups - the group is not the focus of the articles. As to the comment above about the "very notable TV show" America, Apparently, Never Reads a Book, a Google search on that terms brings up zero hits. Notable, right. TheRealFennShysa 20:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep as previous + comment: There is no consensus, so I'd ask an admin to have this closed out and labeled "NO CONSENSUS, DEFAULTING TO KEEP". In the future, it can be revisited but some who agreed it should be deleted never cared to revisit the article after it was expanded upon - so we have biased votes within this tabulation. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 23:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.