Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singlish vocabulary

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. - Mailer Diablo 05:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singlish vocabulary

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Individually, these would be grounds for deletion as they are all dictionary defintions. Collectively, they're just a list of dict defs, and no more notable for it. eaolson 04:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I made a quick renaming of the article; sorry about that, but the article had just been created. I will fix all the links. Cheers. --Vsion 04:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete per nom; fails WP:WINAD.--TBCTaLk?!? 04:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per all of the above. Wikipedia is neither a dictionary, nor a translator, nor the Singaporian urban dictionary. --Daniel Olsen 04:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — At most, words should be added to Wiktionary. – Zntrip 04:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - The words provide an insight into Singapore culture and these are not dictionary definitions, but explanations of various expressions used in Singapore. --Han Sheng 04:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Further comment - Many of these are not words but phrases and expressions which are commonly used in Singapore. This page would be helpful to users who have read the page on Singlish --Han Sheng 04:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment, What makes a list of "explanations of various expressions used in Singapore" any different than an urban dictionary? Also how much does an expression have to be "used" to be considered notable enough to be on the list?--TBCTaLk?!? 04:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - There are many similar articles in Category:Lexis. Moreover, this article is a split from Singlish which was too large. --Vsion 04:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, I wouldn't consider this article similar to other articles in Category:Lexis, since this article simply lists every single word in the Singlish vocabulary, whereas most of the other articles in Category:Lexis have descriptions on history and background.--TBCTaLk?!? 04:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I understand your argument. Nonethelss, the list does not intend to list every word in Singlish, but rather it lists only selected and representative words. A detailed Singlish lexicon can be found in http://www.singlishdictionary.com/ and it is hugh. The Afded-article only consists of a small and illustrative subset of the most common words. And we try to relate it to Singapore's history and culture. In addition, the etymology of some words is also provided where it would be interesting and informative. --Vsion 04:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Even if the article "lists only selected and representative words", its still basically a list of Singlish dictionary definitions, which violates the WP:WINAD policy. Why not just remove the vocabulary definitions and add a section on the history and cultural background of the Singlish language?--TBCTaLk?!? 05:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Yes, I'm a deletionist. This article is a useful appendix to the Singlish article. I find Daniel Olsen's comparison to urbandictionary to not be apt: people from Singapore really do talk like this ;-) My Alt Account 04:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Though you may be correct in that "people from Singapore really do talk like this", how does that prove this isn't bascially just an urban dictionary? After all, a lot of people do use slang words.--TBCTaLk?!? 05:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• The difference is that urbandictionary is full of made-up shit. Half the stuff that's "real" is less than 10 years old. The stuff in Singlish vocabulary existed before most of its practitioners were born, and it's well studied by linguists. My impression is that both linguists and "native speakers of Singlish" (if that concept makes sense) maintain the articles. While I don't particularly endorse the use of singlish, it's not really comparable to slang. My Alt Account 06:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Note that Singlish is a form of slang as it is not considered a formal version of English. Also, be it urban or not, the article is basically a Sanglish dictionary, which, as I said above, violates the WP:WINAD policy.--TBCTaLk?!? 06:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• The linguists consider Singlish a pidgin. How is it relevant that it's not a formal version of English? And where was that disputed anyhow? Hell, I can hardly understand it (sort of annoying, since singlish speakers seem to expect native english speakers to understand them). WP:WINAD is mostly intended to prevent dicdef stub articles and (IMO) has little to say for or against the purpose of Singlish vocabulary. If I were to attack it, I'd be pointing to policies about lists. My Alt Account 07:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I mentioned that it was not a formal version of English and thus a type of slang, since you stated earlier on that Singlish was "not really comparable to slang." Either way, how does it make sense that a dicdef stub can violate the WP:WINAD policy, yet a list of dicdefs do not? According to your interpretation of WP:WINAD, any dicdef could bypass the WP:WINAD policy if written longer than a stub or in list form. Also, though the article doesn't seem to violate any list guidelines (note there are no policies on lists), it does however violate the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" policy.--TBCTaLk?!? 15:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per MAA (and I'm not bothered by the "list" aspect of this article, which is designed to explain by giving examples), though I wish the subject matter of the article were more clearly declared in the opening: i.e. that this is a Singaporean dialect. Allon Fambrizzi 04:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi
• Keep per MAA. Unlike the typical neologism/slang term of the week AfDs, this article really does look useful. Improvements can be made (the pronunciation of "bloody" early on in the piece looks odd), but this is hardly a reason to delete. BigHaz - Schreit mich an (Review me) 07:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I've removed the entry as it is not an expression unique to Singlish. --Han Sheng 08:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Singlish is definitely notable; my friends and I speak it every day. We have an article listing Internet slang - why not Singlish? I don't think there is a Singlish Wiktionary; if there is, I'd support adding these words there. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 12:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • • That argument is based upon a fundamental error. The English Wiktionary takes all words in all languages, just as the English Wikipedia deals with topics from all countries. The "English" part is the language that its articles are written in. Uncle G 12:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete WP:NOT a dictionary or phrasebook. This article, on the other hand, is. Find a home for a transwiki if we can. Guy 13:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment This article is not just a dictionary or phrasebook. Giving readers an idea of what Singlish is like is helpful in their understanding to Singlish. By looking at the list, they can see how English, Malay, Hokkien etc. are mixed into Singlish. The origins of some of the terms are also indicated to show how various terms have come about. Those that are not indicated are still being researched or verified.

• Comment. Isn't one of the main purposes of a Singlish dictionary is to give "readers an idea of what Singlish is like is helpful in their understanding to Singlish"?--TBCTaLk?!? 16:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Yes but a Singlish dictionary would be too specific and no one who wants to find out what Singlish is about quickly will have the time to go through a Singlish dictionary. This article is meant to give readers a general understanding of Singlish based on a representative list of words. It is not simply a list of dictionary definitions. Dictionary definitions don't usually explain how the terms came about. --Han Sheng 19:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. What does it mean to be a "representative list" of words? How were some words and phrases chosen as "representative" and others excluded? For example, I don't see what telling someone that "gabra" means "very confused" tells them other than the meaning of the word. I also think you'll find that any dictionary worth its salt does explain how a term came about; see [1] for example. eaolson 19:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Whether words are representative or not are not determined by just one person. That is exactly why this article is here for others to contribute. This article is still a work in progress. The words that simply list their definitions are still being worked on and I have yet to find additional information for these entries. These words are simply left-over from when this article was still a section in the Singlish page. It was never my intention to make this page a plain list of Singlish vocab and their definitions. I'm working hard to clean it up and make it more useful to wikipedia. That's also the reason why i added the clean-up tag to the top of the list. --Han Sheng 19:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete This is a list of dictionary definitions, plain and simple. Work a few examples into the text of Singlish and it's not a problem. List them like this and it violates WP:NOT. kingboyk 14:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I think the problem is that many people who are actually proposing to delete this article don't understand what Singlish is about at all. Some might think that Singlish is something arbitiary formed from throwing together words from a few other languages. Fact is, Singlish has been around for more then 40 years, since Singapore's coloial days, and has slowly been evolving till its current stage today. It is not possible just to "work a few examples into the text of Singlish" as it would not be representative. Furthermore, this page originated from the article on Singlish and was split because the page was growing too long. If this page is to be deleted and a few examples were put back into the article on Singlish, the page would start growing too long again as more and more people add their examples. There are many similar pages available on Wikipedia, such as Australian English vocabulary, and they exist undisturbed. I'm not sure why there is a sort of double standard being practised here. I feel that this issue should be left to Wikipedians based in Singapore to decide whether this page is representative of Singlish and will help others in the understanding of Singlish. --Han Sheng 15:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I know what Singlish is la so please don't try to insult my intelligence. I have about half a passport full of SG entry/exit stamps. Delete the examples if they get too many. It's cruft. I know the problem, we get the same problem at The Beatles where newbies try to add every factlet under the sun about the group, but it's something we have to deal with. Singlish is an important English dialect which requires an article, but it's not so important that we have to breach WP:NOT and become a dictionary. --kingboyk 16:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
    • No one here is claiming that Singlish is "something arbitiary formed from throwing together words from a few other languages." Also, no matter how long Singlish has been around, the article is still nothing more than just a list of Singlish dictionary definitions, which is a violation of the WP:WINAD policy. Other related vocabulary pages continue to exist because they describe grammar, history, and background , whereas this article simply lists the definition every single Singlish related expression, which as I mentioned before violates WP:WINAD. As for your comment stating that "that this issue should be left to Wikipedians based in Singapore", please remember that Wikipedia (being a Wiki) is a community based project, thus issues are resolved among the Wikipedian community, not just a select group of users. --TBCTaLk?!? 16:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment I'm not sure how (as an example) Australian English vocabulary differs from this page. How does it describe "grammar, history and background"? Anyway, I apologise if I stepped on a few toes while putting forward my argument on keeping this article. I'm still not too familiar about how things work around here as this is my first time participating in an Afd discussion. I see my mistake in suggesting that only Wikipedians based in Singapore should decide this matter. However, i hope that Singapore-based Wikipedians will have something valuable to contribute on the Singlish vocabulary page so as to make the information worth keeping on Wikipedia. --Han Sheng 18:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment, I was referring to other vocabulary articles, such as the Spanish vocabulary or Turkish vocabulary articles, which do contain segments on grammar, history, background, etc. Either way though, I suggest that Australian English vocabulary be nominated as well for deletion, as it too seems to be a list of dicdefs.--TBCTaLk?!? 18:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete, WP:NOT (which is policy and isn't negotiable) excludes this exact thing. "We aren't teaching people how to talk like a Cockney chimney-sweep," it says, and we aren't teaching people how to talk like a guy from Singapore either. Recury 16:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I have added further info in the introduction regarding attempts at organising Singlish vocabulary into a dictionary. Hope that would be something that is considered useful. --Han Sheng 18:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Maybe the list of world could be shrunk. Seano1 20:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. Current state of article is appalling, but it should not be deleted just because of the lists - remove them and provide better detail. Singlish's vocabulary as a creole is quite diverse - ranging from Hokkien to Malay as well as English corruptions, worthy of documentation. John Riemann Soong 21:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, what do you mean by "should not be deleted just because of the lists"? The article was nominated, not because it was a list, but because it consists of only dictionary definitions, which is a violation of WP:WINAD, a policy (not just a guideline) of Wikipedia.--TBCTaLk?!? 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment It does not consist of only dictionary definitions. There is useful information regarding the attempts at documentation of Singlish vocabulary and the usage of such vocabulary. --Han Sheng 03:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• "Lists" in the sense of indiscriminate lists of dictionary definitions. We should use wiktionary for that, but there are notable topics to cover about vocabulary ... once the lists are cleaned up we might have a shorter article to improve. 05:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep with cleanup - as per John Riemann Soong. Ergative rlt 21:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not dictionary. At least delete the terms part. Pavel Vozenilek 22:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep with cleanup - as per Ergative rlt. Leet speak, a fictional language invented by online gamers, has its own comprehensive article. However, this article lists only words that are explainable and have the highest level of usage in online gaming. With proper cleanup, Singlish vocabulary deserves a spot in Wikipedia, as nuances in a specialized form of Singaporean-English dialect is representative of cultural and lingual knowledge of a certain country and group of people; an aspect highly appropriate for Wikipedia. Hellwing 00:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. If this "article was nominated, not because it was a list, but because it consists of only dictionary definitions", then I must presume the 566 words in the introduction are either invisible to them or are considered worthy for deletion as well? This article is a helper article for Singlish to keep the later succint, and to allow for detailed and close examination of Singlish vocabulary. It is indeed strange that a change in format of factual presentation is probably all that is enough to swing votes in either direction.--Huaiwei 15:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. When this article was nominated, it was only a list. See [2] eaolson 16:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. That is a common occurance, and in fact, editors are greatly encouraged to improve on articles and save them from being deleted. I thus find it amusing that some editors continue to claim it was "nothing but dictionary definitions" when the article was rapidly expanded and improved on almost immediately after it was nominated.--Huaiwei 14:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Much of the intro has been expanded yesterday, at least with three new sections, whereas at the time I commented the intro consisted only of a single paragraph. I suggest you please check the edit history first before claiming that it was "expanded and improved on almost immediately after it was nominated", which it was not.--TBCTaLk?!? 03:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and cleanup, we can just list a number of that long list, and make it encyclopedic. This is a legitimate topic and Singaporeans converse in Singlish daily. This article is to explain some of the more well known Singlish words as foreigners mainly do not understand it. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 13:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

...and that is the job of a dictionary not an encyclopedia. That said, get rid of the definitions list and replace it with prose and it's a legitimate article. --kingboyk 14:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep WP:IAR. Wikipedia is not just a dictionary sure, but it still meant to be a useful reference tool. This is a legitimate topic and a good supporting article for Singlish. Markovich292 06:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep with clean-up. —Sengkang 04:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.