Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roni Lynn Deutch

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE. Vociferousness of argument does not equal strength of argument. The raw vote total was 12-6 Delete, on top of which the Delete side had much the stronger arguments. Let us all recall that Wikipedia is basically a tool for scholarship, education, and research. No evidence has been presented that inclusion of this article would markedly enhance the encyclopedia. It appears from the one of the stronger Keep arguments is that she appears in her own frequently-aired TV commercials. As one contributor commented, "I have seen her commercials on TV all the time, she is very notable." That is not a strong argument. The remainder of the Keep arguments are not much stronger. Herostratus 03:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: It now comes to my attention that this AfD had been spammed trolling for Delete votes. These votes would not have changed my decision (which is mostly based on strength of arguments) but they did change the raw vote totals. If this AfD close is brought to deletion review, commentors might want to take notice of the tainted nature of the discussion. Herostratus 03:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roni Lynn Deutch

This article, under its previous title "Roni Deutch" was deleted through this AfD. A DRV consensus overturned this deletion in light of new information, and directed the move to the new, full name. Please consult the DRV for the new evidence before commenting here. This is a procedural nomination, so I abstain. Xoloz 15:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as non-notable person, per WP:BIO. Looks more like an ad than an encyclopedia article. Valrith 21:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep she is a notable person, and before claiming she is unnotable people should read the discussion about this article in the deletion review where consensus was to charge the article's title. There are nearly 10,000 results in google for "roni lynn deutch" and thousands more if you look at the results for common mispelt names. She easily passes the bio standards mathewguiver 22:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Looking through the first 5 pages of google hits, I don't see any that are about the person; many appear to be ads for businesses she's been involved with. Others are ads for products from those businesses. I don't see any specific bullet of the bio standards that she would "easily pass". Perhaps you could point it out and give the reference that you feel satisfies it... Valrith 03:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I would have to disagree with you on this one. When looking at the google search for "Roni Lynn Deutch" the second and third results are both from rip off report.com which both mention her as a person multiple times. Also many of the results are from law related websites which mention her. This goes towards one of the BIO standards, "other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field." And try googling Roni Deutch, you will see many results in the first five pages mentioning her as a person. I would think that any result on google mentioning her goes towards fulfilling this requirement. Because of her aggressive television commercials she has gained some popularity on the internet, she is mentioned in many blogs and forums. She even has an entry at Urban Dictionary about her, and there is even some one who has started their own Roni Deutch Fansite Also, if you would have read the articles entry in DRV, you would see that her name is very commonly misspelt. Ronnie Deutsch yeilds over 13,000 google results (many of which mention her as a person), and there are many other spellings that also return many results, such as Roni Deutsch - 1870, ronnie deutsch - 938, ronnie deutch - 938, ronni deutch - 759. I think that any mention of her online goes towards proving that her work is widely recognized, which is one of the requirements in WP:BIO. Also, look down to my comment on news articles, I think her inclusion in those articles (specifically the one from AP) help to fulfil another requirement "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. (Multiple similar stories describing a single day's news event only count as one coverage.)" I know that 10 news articles is not a massive amount, but I don't have any, neither does my neighbor, neither do my coworkers... I think that 10 articles would qualify as multiple sroties. mathewguiver 15:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete advertising. News hits on Newsbank: 2 for "Roni Lynn Deutch", 5 9 for "Roni Deutch", all but one from the Sacto/Fresno area. Here's one: Apparently super TV tax attorney Roni Deutch can settle your tax debt and civil penalties for pennies on the dollar. According to her Web site, she was able to get a Chicago tax procrastinator who owed the government $1.6 million off the hook for $20 last year. ~ trialsanderrors 04:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • comment - I would just like to point out that your numbers here are slightly incorrect. Actually a Newsbank search for Roni Deutch brings up 17 results, 10 of which I would say are relevent to Roni Deutch. Some of which include articles that discuss free seminars which she spoke at, some are from 1986 and discuss her athletic accomplishments, one talks about her company occupying a new office, one is about a lawsuit in NY that was pending against her, and one is about her company's halloween party. In regards to all but one article being for sac/fresno, actually one of the articles is from San Jose and another was an AP article meaning it was featured in news outlets across the country such as yahoo. mathewguiver 14:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - September 25, 1994

YOUR MONEY Pacific Business Services Inc. will present a free seminar on Living Trusts at 10 a.m., 1 p.m., 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. Tuesday. Speakers will be lawyer Roni Deutch and tax specialist Stan Unruh. Information: 431-0381. * Stephen E. Prout, a certified financial planner, and Richard E. Hemb, a lawyer, will present a free Living Trust Seminar sponsored by Smart Trust Advisors at 10 a.m., 2 p.m. and 7 p.m. Tuesday at Smuggler's Inn, 3737 N. Blackstone Ave. * Pamela Catling, a certified...

  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - October 2, 1994

YOUR MONEY The first in a series of money management workshops sponsored by the American Association of Retired Persons and the University of California Cooperative Extension will be held 6-8 p.m. Tuesday in the College Community Congregational Church, 5550 N. Fresno St.* A free seminar on Living Trusts will be presented by Pacific Business Services Inc. at 10 a.m., 1 p.m., 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. Thursday. The speakers will be Roni Deutch, a lawyer, and Stan Unruh, a tax specialist. Information:...

  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - June 5, 1994

YOUR MONEY A free seminar on Women Inheriting Investment Responsibilities will be presented at 10 a.m. Tuesday in the Merrill Lynch office at 5260 N. Palm Ave., Suite 100 by Dick Powell and Pete Baumstark, financial consultants; Kevin Gunner, a lawyer, and James E. Cornwell, a chartered life underwriter.A luncheon will follow at D'Mils restaurant. For reservations: 436-3323. * Pacific Business Services Inc. will sponsor free seminars on Living Trusts at 2-4 p.m. and 6:45-8:45 p.m....

  • Sacramento Bee, The (CA) - May 27, 2004

Corner to see shops, offices Complex will spruce up Watt and Myrtle in North Highlands. A $4 million office and retail complex that will house a law firm which represents taxpayers having problems with the Internal Revenue Service is taking shape at a key North Highlands intersection. Sacramento County Supervisor Roger Dickinson said the complex demonstrates the "new level of energy and vitality we are seeing along Watt Avenue." Construction has already started on a two-story, 20,000- square-foot office building and 4,500 square feet of...

  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - October 16, 1994

YOUR MONEY College Planning Services of Fresno will sponsor a free seminar for parents needing Money for Children's College Education at 7 p.m. Tuesday in the Ramada Inn. Terry Wilfong will be the speaker. Information and reservations: 228-8051.* Richard D. Moore and Rick R. Staggs, certified financial planners, will give an introductory class called The One-Hour Financial Manager from 10 to 0 a.m. and 7:30 to 9 p.m. Tuesday. Information and reservations: 227-0704. * Carole R. Ford, a...

  • San Jose Mercury News (CA) - May 22, 1986

FENDICK REPEATS STUNNING PERFORMANCE Stanford's Patty Fendick shocked top-seeded Caroline Kuhlman of Southern Cal for the second time in three days, handing her a 6-4, 6-4 loss Wednesday in the quarterfinals of the NCAA women's individual tennis championships in Austin, Texas.On Monday, Fendick snapped Kuhlman's 30-match win streak 7-5, 6-2 during the team championship. The Cardinal won the team title. On Wednesday, Fendick went up 2-0 in the first set and never allowed the USC sophomore to...

  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - May 13, 1986

'DOGS NAMED NCAA SOFTBALL REGIONAL HOSTS NORPAC HONORS PARRENT, WRIGHT The good news came right on schedule Monday for Fresno State University's softball team. The Bulldogs are in the NCAA postseason tournament, and they're taking the NorPac Conference's top award winners, pitcher Melanie Parrent and Coach Margie Wright, with them. FSU was awarded an at-large bid and, better yet, assigned to host the Northwest Regional at Bulldog Diamond this weekend against 10th-ranked Long Beach State. Parrent was named the player of the year...

  • Fresno Bee, The (CA) - April 27, 1986

'DOGS, CAL SPLIT IN SOFTBALL AFTER CONTROVERSY IN OPENER They'll be talking a long time about the wild pitch that really wasn't Saturday at Bulldog Diamond. That call -- made by home plate umpire Dennis Wren -- resulted in a 1-0 Fresno State University victory over the California Bears in the first game of an important NorPac Conference double-header before a sunbathed crowd of 947. The ninth-ranked Bears, lip-biting mad over the outcome of that opener, went on to plaster the sixth-ranked Bulldogs 4-2 in the second game and...

  • Associated Press Archive - June 6, 2006

2 NYC lawsuits claim company failed to deliver promised tax help A company whose nationwide advertising offered tax delinquents a chance to settle with the IRS for "pennies on the dollar" collected hefty fees but often couldn't deliver on its promises, according to a pair of lawsuits. New York City's Department of Consumer Affairs filed a lawsuit Monday accusing American Tax Relief of bombarding households with junk mail that exaggerated what it could do for clients with big tax debts. Separately, a...

  • The Sacramento Bee - November 1, 2003

As spooky as the law allows Sacramento Bee / Manny Crisostomo For those who don't think visiting a lawyer's offices is scary enough, the Sacramento staff of Roni Lynn Deutch dressed Friday for Halloween - tax director Scott Schimleski is Dracula, behind legal assistant Le Deutch - and entertained youngsters....

    • Now I get 9 total. I corrected the number above. Between 1986 and 2006, that still amounts to nothing for a supposed TV personality. ~ trialsanderrors 16:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
      • There was never any claim that Roni Deutch is a "television personality." She is a tax attorney who is the head of a nationally recognized law firm. She is a busines professional and should be held to the bio standards for business professionals, not television stars. WP:BIO says that "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person." It says the person needs to be the subject of multiple articles, it does not say they need to have a hundred articles, infact it does not mention a number at all. I think that having 10 articles written about a busines professional could make them notable. I would also like to mention the Pokemon Testand that everything included in wikipedia does not need hundreds of news articles. mathewguiver 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
        • It's perfectly up the discretion of the editors to assess the quality of the news items and draw their own conclusions about notability. I find them partly trivial, partly passing mentions, and all local. Hence, notability not established in my book. ~ trialsanderrors 19:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I hate to be argumentative, but I do want to point out that all of the articles are not local. First of all Fresno and Sacramento are not the same city, they are three hours apart. And in addition to the articles in sacramento and fresno, there are ones from the associated press, San Jose Mercury News (CA) and The Herald News (Joliet, IL). mathewguiver 19:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
            • I live in the Bay Area, I know where those places are. I'm actually much more interested in the Associated Press Archive - June 6, 2006 article you cite. Where did you get that from? It doesn't pop up on my search. ~ trialsanderrors 20:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
              • Hmm… the AP article just showed up when I did my search. Go to http://nl.newsbank.com/ then click on search and search for "roni lynn deutch". It’s the second one that comes up, I took a screen cap of it. And you can read the full article at http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060606/no_tax_help.html?.v=1 .
                • Hmm, Better Business Bureau gives her firm a failing grade, F... ~ trialsanderrors 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
                  • That is 100% incorrect. The article says that American Tax Relief has an F grade with the Better Business Bureau. The article does not mention Roni's firm's record. mathewguiver 23:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC).
                    • Oh, I misread that. I thought American Tax Relief was the name of her firm since it uses the pennies for a dollar slogan. So that's another passing mention then. Also puts the claim that she coined the slogan into question. Fact tag? ~ trialsanderrors 23:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per trialsanderrors. Smells of pork. Counting Ghits is not research. It is possible that mathewguiver may have an undeclared agenda. While this article shows up as his main edits, he has done a few others on subjects within the domain of RLD (Income Statements and some other tax/legal definitions). Ohconfucius 07:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • comment before commenting how about looking at my list of contributions. As you can see I have contributed to more then just the Roni Lynn Deutch article, and other roni related topics. I have only had an account for a little while, please remember to not bit the newcomers mathewguiver 1502, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. mathewguiver - you are free to protest its relevance (i.e. having a special interest in no way invalidates your opinion), but Ohconfucius made a very judicious summary that does not WP:BITE. Eusebeus 18:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete she is a prolific advertiser in the Sacto area, as John Scherer whose "video professor" ads infest TVs US-wide merited a deletion, so does she. Carlossuarez46 23:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Wow, this one must have slipped through the cracks. It's not an advertisement--she's in advertisements. If it acts like an advertisement, well, then, edit the article. But she's on tv all the time, and we have to remember, as wikipedia is not paper, the quantifiable accountability we have for our edits. Almost no one has heard of a British law from 1850 banning segways on roads, but millions upon millions have heard of Roni Deutch in the English speaking world, in 30 second segments where she is the only speaker, speaking directly to the audience. People wanting to find out more about her, for example, to buy one of the products she is advertising, might very well indeed go to wikipedia to look up her rating in the BBB, as is mentioned here, or just some of the wider summary of what she's done. The article has to get better at doing those things--but I don't see anything horrible that suggests deletion is warranted here.-Kmaguir1 08:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I am an attorney and CPA and I have been in tax practice for over twenty years. I'm sure Ms. Roni Deutch is a fine tax lawyer and a fine person, but in the world of tax law she is simply not notable. I am straining to think if I had ever heard of her before I came across this. I could make a list of notable U.S. tax lawyers based on pre-set criteria, but I can't think of how or why she would be on the list. Nothing personal -- also I would in no way make the list either. The article is an advertisement for her. Not encyclopedic, and the subject is in my opinion non-notable. Yours, Famspear 15:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
    • PS: For what it's worth, a few minutes ago I ran separate searches on "Roni Deutch" and "Roni Lynn Deutch" on the CCH Tax Research Network website (it's a "pay" website used by tax lawyers, CPAs, etc.) including the text of nearly every reported Federal court decision (U.S. Supreme Court, the appeals courts, the district courts, bankruptcy courts, and U.S. Tax Court) involving Federal taxation since the year 1913. Both searches returned zero hits. That doesn't mean she's never been to court in a tax case (and most tax law practice is outside of court anyway), but it should at least be taken into account to the extent that she is supposedly "notable for" being a tax lawyer. Yours, Famspear 18:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Roni Deutch is a tax attorney, but she is the head of a national company (similarly to Jackson Hewitt and JK Harris & Company, LLC) with many lawyers working under her. The reason ther should be an article on this site is because she is the head of Roni Deutch, a Professional Tax Corporation that represents thousands of people per year, and has tons of ads on television. Millions of people know who she is, google results for her name variations yeild thousands and thousands of results. She is mentioned and talked about in hundreds if not thousands of forums and blogs. And remember that just because you havent heard of her does not mean that there aren't people who have.--mathewguiver 18:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
        • OK, let me see if I have this straight. Because Roni Deutch is the head of an eponymous "professional tax corporation" that supposedly "represents thousands of people per year" and has purchased "tons" of TV ads, and supposedly "millions" of people know who she is (because of those tons of TV ads she bought), and because there are "thousands and thousands" of google hits for her, and she is supposedly talked about in "hundreds if not thousands of forums and blogs" -- that means there should be an encyclopedia article about her? Yours, Famspear 19:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I would have to think that yes, being the founder and head of a largely known company does warrent an inclusion in wikipedia. Again, just because you haven't heard of some one does not make them non notable, there are obviously plently people who know who she is... Per [WP:BIO] "other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse)." I would think that having thousands of google hits helps show that her work is widely recognized. --mathewguiver 20:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
            • The thousands of Google hits aren't all that impressive when on the first page of search results for "ronnie deutch" (your link above) you get pages like this. This isn't even Google bombing, this is Google picking up Google ads, pure and simple. ~ trialsanderrors 21:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
              • The link you posted above is a link to a misspelling on her name, which would seem likely that there would be some spam. Link to her name spelt properly bring up more relevant results Example One Example 2. --mathewguiver 21:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
                • 1. It's a link you youself provided to bolster your claim ("Ronnie Deutsch yeilds over 13,000 google results"). 2. Even the correct spellings come up with the same kind of crap. ~ trialsanderrors 21:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep I have seen her commercials on TV all the time, she is very notable. Also, if her article should be deleted so should Jackson Hewitt and JK Harris & Company, LLC, right?? I think this article should stay.--NoelleWiley 15:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
NoelleWiley makes a good point about the article on JK Harris & Company, LLC. Looks like blatant advertising and copyright violation as well. The verbiage in that article was apparently copied and pasted from a website for JK Harris & Company! And you have seen her commercials on TV all the time -- so therefore she is notable for purposes of an encyclopedia article? Running commercials on TV makes somebody worthy of an encyclopedia article? Wow. Famspear 03:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Odd, I don't recall seeing 'has been in a commercial' in the WP:BIO criteria... Valrith 03:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes very odd because I don't recall stating anything about wiki WP:BIO criteria, I was simply reply to the talk about her not being notable! Know were did i state that her being in a commercial made her worth of any encyclopedia article. NoelleWiley 15:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear NoelleWiley: At the expense of spelling out what is stunningly obvious to everyone, you stated: "I have seen her commercials on TV all the time, she is very notable." You yourself mentioned the "commercials." Sorry, but a reasonable person will infer that you are implying that her being in a commercial made her worthy of any encyclopedia article. You yourself linked the two concepts in one sentence. Yours, Famspear 00:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - any body who has ever watched morning talk shows and game shows will know who she is. And thousands of google hits does make me think people must know who she is. - Chelsea —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.150.226.215 (talk • contribs) 18:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Maybe I've seen one too many of the tax lady's television commercials. In any case, I do think that there is a small claim to notability, enough to pass WP:BIO, and can imagine someone coming to Wikipedia in order to learn more about her or her business. I come to Wikipedia for the same reason all the time, most recently to learn more about the GEICO gecko. That's one of the things that makes Wikipedia so great. RFerreira 18:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • keep please per rferreira there is no reason to erase this article it passes bio guideline Yuckfoo 07:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete search ripoffreport.com and bbb.org, and you will know why she doesn't belong here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.26.172.248 (talk • contribs) 16:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • according to WP:BIO "other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse)" so having negative articles on her does not negatively affect the article but rather goes to show that she is notable. Also the person who made that anonymous comment ironically added a link to a smaller competitor's site (tax-tiger.com) on the Offer in Compromise page right before voting to delete here. --mathewguiver 17:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors: Actually, the language at WP:BIO is "Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field" (emphasis added). Are we seriously trying to contend that Ms. Deutch's work is "widely recognized" in the field of tax law merely because she advertises? Who is "recognizing" her legal work? Legal experts and scholars, or the people who watch her commercials on daytime TV? Please show us where or how her work is part of the "enduring historical record" in the field of U.S. law, or U.S. tax law. Advertising oneself on television? Under that line of reasoning Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. could have rated a Wikipedia article had he never served as a Federal judge or written the scholarly articles and books he wrote, and had simply advertised on television (had TV existed back then). It seems we are saying that what is being recognized is not her legal work, not her contribution to legal scholarship or legal history, but rather the fact that she advertises and is well known because she advertises. Yours, Famspear 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. NN. bd2412 T 20:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not being in Wikipedia isn't the end of the world. We don't need to cover everyone that buys a bunch of advertising. I've seen no evidence that she is important or has made much impact of any kind. Lacking that, we shouldn't have an article on her. Even if we kept an article it should be limited to verifiable information about her, of which there is too little for an article. Hence delete. - Taxman Talk 20:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Famspear. She does not meet my concept of Wikipedia's notability standard for a bio. -- DS1953 talk 01:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a business directory. Advertising is the ultimate self-publishing: it does not make one notable. Robert A.West (Talk) 01:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I concur with Taxman, Famspear, and Robert A. West. --Coolcaesar 00:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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