Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Renai game

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect. W.marsh 19:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renai game

Renai game (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

This article is a duplicate of the subject of dating sim. Please do not close this AfD simply saying we can keep both articles, because we cannot have two articles about the same subject! I recommend Wikipedia choose the term "dating sim" simply because the titles of Wikipedia articles are not meant to reflect fandom jargon, but rather the most commonly used term. A brief overview for those who don't know:

• The term "dating sim," meaning a video game focused around romance, has been in use in English since the 1990s. It is an English translation of the Japanese term 恋愛ゲーム ren'ai geemu. Dating sims have overlap with bishoujo games, meaning Japanese games involving cute girls, and visual novels, a medium similar to text adventure.
• The term "dating sim" is commonly used in video game literature to describe any kind of romantic game, regardless of whether it is a simulation or text adventure, because that's simply the term commonly used in English. For example: Google News, Google Book Search, Google Scholar
• The term "ren'ai game" is a neologism. It is not Japanese; that would be "ren'ai geemu." It is not English; that would be "romance game." And it is not used in reliable English sources at all. Google News, Google Book Search, Google Scholar
• The publishers of romantic bishoujo games in English refer to them as "dating sims," even if they involve neither dating nor simulation, because "dating sim" is the term most commonly used in English. For example, Image:Kana cover.jpg, http://jbox.com/, http://www.peachprincess.com/ (click through to front page - NSFW)

So, I recommend this article be deleted as a neologism, or at least redirected to dating sim. The main content of this article is some stuff I wrote in the anime game article which was recently moved here by other people without my knowledge; I recommend it be moved somewhere else before deleting. Ashibaka (tock) 17:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete along with Anime game: It has become apparent that trying to make an article that includes both dating sim and visual novel is futile. The two genres should be conntected by nothing more than a link in "See also".--SeizureDog 02:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Del and redirect per nom. All the info is pretty much covered between dating sim and visual novel articles; since the ren'ai term is used in some circles, it could be added as an alternate name at the beginning of the article(s). Virog^{It's not}_{my fault!} 03:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Game-related-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 05:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 05:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as redundant, merge anything worth keeping in the dating sim article. Snarfies 11:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 14:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete and redirect to dating sim. JuJube 01:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect. -- 9muses 02:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect - Why delete and lose the edit history of the page? Just redirect the page and keep the edit history. --Squilibob 05:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - From what I understand, this is a popular genre game in Japan. (If geemu is a transliteration of game, then it makes sense to transliterate it back.) At least one English-language publisher is using Ren'Ai game [1]. Searching on the Japanese term on google.jp news gets some hits, which is evidence of notability there. PyTom 16:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Um, did you actually read my nomination, or do you think Wikipedia has a "use Japanese" policy? Please provide evidence that "ren'ai game" is more commonly used than "dating sim." We can't keep both articles. Ashibaka (tock) 19:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge, redirect to Dating sim. Has some salvageable information that is not listed at target. Also, Dating sim at this moment does not address the subsection of Adult dating sims. -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 12:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Additional Comment: Anime game is currently a redirect. -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 12:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Penwhale 12:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect per Penwhale, I'd suggest anything folks believe is worth porting is grabbed and pasted so the job's complete. QuagmireDog 14:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect -- isn't that pretty much always what we do with apparently redundant articles? If there's anything significant about this term, just give it a mention at dating sim, and that should be enough, no? Luna Santin 16:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep -- The Pickup Game on Newsgrounds is considered a dating sim in engish but wouldn't be considered a "ren'ai game". Also, The Pickup Game is actually about teaching guys how to pick up girls. It makes mention of the "3 second-rule" which is a term that orginates from the Mystery Method. The Mystery Method is a part of the Seduction Community. Counter Arts 00:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you cite some reliable sources, such as printed publications, for your uses of the term "dating sim" and "ren'ai game" in the context of the "seduction community"? Also, how does this invalidate the term "dating sim"? Ashibaka (tock) 00:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Can you cite a reliable source on the definition of the term Dating Sim, that it must have romance? You might be able to say how popular a term is by google results but you can't say what defintion it has by those results. The Pickup Game is not focused on romance. It is focused on picking up girls. Counter Arts 02:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
      • So, which reliable source calls it a dating sim? Ashibaka (tock) 03:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Well, that game has over 1 million views on newgrounds alone. It also recieved an daily third place award on that site. It is listed as "dating sim". In my opinion, a lot of other people consider that a dating sim as it teaches how to pick up girls. Counter Arts 03:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
          • If the Badger Badger movie were referred to as a "dating sim" on Newgrounds would that invalidate this AfD too? (my roundabout point being that Wikipedia is supposed to reflect reliably used terms, not new definitions created by websites) Ashibaka (tock) 04:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
            • "Dating Sim" is not a reliably used term. If you google Axe Dating Simulation the first hit is a flash game called Mojo Master. Mojo Master was a game/advertisement for Axe Products. A game review of Mojo Master does not reveal any romantic elements. Counter Arts 09:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
              • It is reliably used both in gaming publications, in published books, and by the licensors of the dating sims themselves, c.f. Image:Kana cover.jpg. Ashibaka (tock) 21:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
                • Hm... The example of the cover of Kana is odd, since my copy doesn't contain the word "Dating Sim" at all. It's missing that flag at the bottom mentioning it. (See the cover on g-collection's site.) A quick survey of my collection shows Peach Princess using the term "Dating Sim", G-Collections using "Erotic Bishoujo Adventure", Hirameki using either "Interactive DVD", "Visual Novel", and whatever they're calling Piece of Wonder, LIBIDO using "dating game", Okashi Studios using "ren'ai game", and JAST-USA using "Love-sim". I personally think there's a distinction between "dating sim", which describes a mechanic, and "ren'ai", which is about content. PyTom 22:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
                  • Okashi Studios doesn't license games, they are just a bunch of fanboys. Ashibaka (tock) 05:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
                    • That's a bit of a slur. They are producing an original game, and they had a booth in the industry hall of Otakon last year. PyTom 05:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
              • Not with definition given as the reason for deletion for ren'ai game. GameDaily BIZ: Unilever Plays Games With Body Spray, Vgpub, [2], and the review of Mojo Master calls it a dating sim. There is nothing that really disputes that Mojo Master is a dating sim. However, Mojo Master has no romantic elements. Counter Arts 23:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. — brighterorange (talk) 19:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.