Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poland v Brazil (1938)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: disregarding self-contradictory arguments (merge requires keeping the article as a redirect with edit history preserved, otherwise the GFDL is violated), no consensus for deletion. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 12:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poland v Brazil (1938)

Poland v Brazil (1938) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Whilst Poland's first game at a World Cup finals is notable, and deserves a mention on the Polish national team's page, Wikipedia is the not the place for what amounts to a match report. Nuttah68 15:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Not notable enough to have a separate article. Most material can be included in the national team article instead, and for the match report as such, Wikipedia is not a news service, be it old news. Or as someone recently expressed on another AfD, Wikipedia is not ESPN. – Elisson • T • C • 20:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It is a notable match for the Poles, and it is more notable than most FA Cup finals, and it is also more notable than the Battle of Bramall Lane. --Carioca 20:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Saying "we have an article on X, so why shouldn't Y be kept", is nothing more but a straw man. I've read the whole article and can't find a single thing that makes this match more notable than any other match in the World Cup, and general consensus is that we should not have articles on single matches unless they are notable, for example being a final match (such as the FA Cup finals), a match that featured very unusual events (such as the Battle of Bramall Lane) or a match that has made significant impact on football history (such as England v United States (1950)). 78 national teams have played a "first World Cup match", which means maybe 60-70 "first World Cup matches" in total (considering a few debutants have played each other in the debut). I doubt many of them would be notable enough to warrant a separate article, and this one is no exception. – Elisson • T • C • 21:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The World Cup debut of the Polish national team makes this game more notable than most (and the article asserts this notability in the first paragraph). No reason this shouldn't exist in an encyclopedia not made of paper. Ccscott 09:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
  • You mean it asserts notability by claiming stating that the "1938 FIFA World Cup in France is still remembered by Polish fans of this sport as the one in which Poland national football team debuted"? You have to be kidding me. Well, for all I can say, Sweden-England on Ullevi in 2004 is still remembered by Swedish fans as the 100 year jubilee match of the Swedish FA. And Germany-Sweden in this year's World Cup is still remembered by Swedish fans at the match where Sweden were eliminated. But I wouldn't even consider creating articles on those matches as there are hundreds of matches "remembered by x fans as the match which y". That doesn't mean the match itself is notable. – Elisson • T • C • 12:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The notability derives from the fact this is the match "in which Poland national football team debuted". It isn't really relevant who remembers which games as what, but the fact remains that this was the national team's first game. This raises the notability of the match above most other first round matches and should qualify this subject for an article. Ccscott 14:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment Just to clarify, it was the Polish team's first match in the World Cup finals. It wasn't their first ever match..... ChrisTheDude 14:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Ccsott, we have, as said, 78 teams that have played a "first game" in the World Cup final tournaments. We have something like >200 national teams that have played a "first game" of any kind. A "first game" is not notable unless something unusual happened. – Elisson • T • C • 14:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I am a little out of my element in this subject, but if the rule is that a single match should have an article if it is more notable than most matches I think this should qualify. The debut of a nation at a World Cup event is a relative rare event (78 of the almost 700 games played is not very much). Further, a quick google search reveals this match has been noted by many. It was named the top match in World Cup history by William Hill Sportsbook[[1]] and is described as "one of the greatest games of all time" on the official FIFA website[[2]]. Is this the most notable match in FIFA history? No, but If the standard is that the game has to be more notable than most, I think this match qualifies to have its own article. Ccscott 16:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - A single early round match can't be more important than a World Cup final (all of which have inherent notability). Even on EN, the Bramall Lane game is liklier to be a search topic, although it'll probably fall into insignificance in a few more years. -- 207.62.247.30 21:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - this is nothing more than soccercruft, and reads like it too. Ouch! Moreschi 21:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi this is Tymek 01:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC) the author of this article.

• There is just something I do not understand. You people are more than happy to delete my article while you stick to your stuff, thinking that what matters to an Englishman or a Swede also matters to everybody else. Mister Elisson writes in his wiki-works e.g. about the year 1904 in Swedish football league, but here he states that Wikipedia is not ESPN or "Wikipedia is not a news service, be it old news". Hypocrisy, isn't it?
  • Disregarding the borderline personal attacks, I wonder how you fail to understand the difference between a seasonal summary (such as 1904 in Swedish football), and a summary one match of one day of the year? And I don't understand in which way the comment is relevant to this AfD. – Elisson • T • C • 12:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The span of time does not matter. Your works on seasons in Swedish soccer are just about same as my works on the 1938 game. How about ESPN stuff you mentioned before? (Tymek 16:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

• Someone stated that Poland vs. Brazil 1938 was not "more notable than any other match in the World Cup", adding that Battle of Bramall Lane or England v United States (1950) made a bigger impact on football history. Let me just ask - what impact did these games have? They are only remembered in England,just like the 1938 game is remembered in Poland. Or in other words - how can you judge from global point of view, which of these games was more important? It is impossible obviously. The 1938 game was unusual because of its emotions and 4 goals scored by Wilimowski, which had never happened before.
  • They're only remembered in England? No? Anyone with an interrest in football history remembers or has heard about when the US beat England 1–0. I also heard about the Battle of Bramall Lane back in 2002. Still you're using a straw man. You can't say "we have an article on x, so why shouldn't we have an article on y". This discussion is about the notability of the 1938 match, not any other match. – Elisson • T • C • 12:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I would not argue. Surely England - USA game is remembered, but was it a crucial game from global point of view? About Battle of Bramall - ask someone in Brazil which game they know and the answer is obvious, I also never heard of this game (using your reasoning). I wonder how you fail to understand that English-language Wikipedia is for all English speakers all over the world, not only those in England or Sweden (Tymek 16:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)).

• Also - say, there is an article about some 1967 game New Zealand vs Fiji. This game may seem unimportant to Swedes or the English, but what if it is very important to the New Zealanders? Think fora while before you try to destroy somebody elses' work. Soccer is not only about games in England and 1911 season in Sweden
  • I won't even comment this. You are obviusly way too emotionally involved in "your article" to discuss this matter in a reasonable way. – Elisson • T • C • 12:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Why you don't comment on this? Surely I am involved in it, because it is part of my works on soccer in interwar Poland. Anyway, you miss one point - there will always be someone who wants to know the champion of Sweden in 1904 and there will always be someone who wants to know more about the 1938 Poland - Brazil game. You gave me no reasonable answers, claiming "straw man" or stating that I am too emotional. In other words - there are no reasons for deleting this article (Tymek 16:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)).

• To Moreschi - if you don't like it, why do you care?
• Merge into Poland national football team. Oldelpaso 16:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and merge the worthwhile information into either 1938 FIFA World Cup or Poland national football team. As it stands the article doesn't know whether it's a match summary or a Poland in the 1938 World Cup summary. The match details are non-notable to me, as are things like the list of stand-by players left in Poland(!). The Poland's debut and youngest goalkeeper trivia should be kept somewhere though. aLii 18:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Ccscott. Drew30319 00:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and Merge into Poland national football team. The match itself is not notable. --Angelo 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and merge seems logical - non-notable football match that was not extremely significant. Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 07:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • To elaborate: The Last Game (August 27, 1939) is an example of a notable match, demonstrating the cultural and historical significance of the match. This one isn't, sorry. Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 07:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, delete and merge is not a valid option, its either delete or merge and redirect. Oldelpaso 17:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes it is - merge the content, and delete the article (this isn't a realistic redirect). Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 01:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• I just want to mention that original title of this article was Polish Roster at World Cup France 1938, as I wrote not only about the game, but also about whole performance of Polish team during and before this event. however, the name was changed several times by God knows who, and finally somebody settled it as Poland V. Brazil which according to me does not reflect the article. BTW - Merry Xmas to all! (Tymek 20:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC))

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.