Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pirate Cove (webcomic)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE. -Doc^g 00:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pirate Cove (webcomic)

Pirate Cove (webcomic) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Prod removed a long time ago, so taking this to AfD. Non notable webcomic, no claims to notability in article, no indications of notability found through a Google search (looking for Pirate Cove alone gives many false positives, looking for pirate cove plus joe d'angelo gives only 21 distinct google hits[1], only one of them from WP:RS: Wired news mentions the comic in passing when speaking shortkly with the author as an example of a webcomics creator[2]. Fails WP:NOTE. Fram 13:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom--R613vlu 13:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Edison 16:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Webcomics-related deletions. -- Sid 3050 22:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Notability is asserted due to longevity of the 'daily' comic (6 years). Notability is asserted in that it's in it's second print volume.
• Comment As is usual for Fram's webcomic AFD nominations, a deceptively low Google search value is given based on a rare search term combination. Even "pirate cove"+Angelo gives 656 hits. "Pirate Cove"+webcomic gives 3450 hits, and "Pirate Cove"+comic gives 74,600 hits, about half of which seem to be about other things. Top two hits for "pirate cove"+comic+wired give you Wired news and also (oddly enough) Buffetnews.com, which mentions it several times. At this point I'm not sure about notability of the article, but I am disappointed at Fram not having improved the AFD habits which I have criticized already. Balancer 02:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As has been shown in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Parking Lot is Full, your extended searches are good for boosting the numbers, but not for retrieving more reliable sources. Why would I change my search habits when they seem to return all the hits that could possible be non-trivial mentions from reliable sources, while excluding passing mentions and irrelevant hits, mostly about unrelated things? Take e.g. your buffettnews.com: this is a fan site for a musician, not a reliable source at all. So again, it looks to me like you can't find any reliable sources beyond those I already provided, but still you feel the need to attack me. Please stop doing this and defend the comic with good sources instead. Fram 06:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I've asked you numerous times to engage in more than a cursory effort to find sources before putting up an AFD, but you clearly haven't. In this case, for example, you searched for Joe D'Angelo rather than simply D'Angelo as would have been standard. As has been demonstrated in the case of The Parking Lot is Full and other AFDs, your searches are (a) inadequate and (b) do not establish a lack of notability. I cannot in good conscience vote to delete the article until an adequate argument has been offered for lack of notability, not simply "I searched using a poorly chosen combination of terms and managed to get a low hit-count." Balancer 11:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: As I've mentioned, I feel quite uncertain as to whether or not this webcomic will turn out to meet WP:N standards if well investigated... so don't misrepresent what I'm saying. Balancer 11:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

To start with your last comment: what have I misrepresented? Further: I cannot prove a negative (i.e. "establish a lack of notability"), it is up to you to show the opposite, that there indeed is some notability. As for the rest of your comments: search for "Pirate Cove" "d'Angelo" -"Joe d'Angelo" (i.e. all the links my search didn't have, but your "standard" search finds):[3] you get 31 additional distinct hits, but none of them are about the comic. Conclusion: all your "standard" search has done when compared to my "inadequate" and "cursory" one "using a poorly chosen combination of terms" is increase the raw numbers to make the return look more impressive, without even adding one single relevant hit, nevermind it being from a reliable source or being more than a passing mention. For the final time: please refrain from making these completely baseless attacks on me and my search methods: you haven't given in any of these webcomics AfD's a relevant and even slightly reliable source that was not included in my original search. Fram 14:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Not notable, not verifiable. A relatively long run has not helped it get attention from any non-trivial independent reliables, and a quick Q&A in passing at Alternative Press Expo by Wired, isn't it. ..Furthermore the previous commentator ought to cool it with getting personal as his criticsims stands some criticism themselves. —MURGH ^disc. 05:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as WP:V is met by the Silverbullet and Sequential Tart coverage, per Balancer's intrepid probe. MURGH ^disc. 10:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Fram's nomination. No sign of sources or importance. Googling for the name of the comic plus the name of author is a great search when looking for nontrivial sources, since only a trivial source won't bother to at least mention the author's name. --Dragonfiend 04:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Such as the 600 hits Fram excludes by asking for an exact search on "Joe D'Angelo" rather than simply "D'Angelo"? I stand by my criticism that Fram has not been making sufficient effort to verify webcomic articles' notability or lack thereof before putting up AFDs, and the arguments set forth in the AFD title almost universally invoke Google hit-counts based on poorly-selected search terms in order to claim greater obscurity than is actually present. Search engine hits are not a measure of notability, after all. Balancer 11:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Exactly, so why are you pursuing this? Googling is a means to find valid sources, and a notable article may very well get only 3 hits. Noone is misled by this. MURGH ^disc. 13:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
    • See my reply to Balancer's similar complaint above, and note the irony of complaining that my search gives lower numbers than his, and then saying that "Search engine hits are not a measure of notability". Let me add that even relevant search engine hits are not a measure of notability, never mind completely unrelated hits...Fram 14:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Which is why you mention the hits in every AFD you make? Balancer 20:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. - Francis Tyers · 17:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep per WP:WEB now that I've reviewed the actual content of the Wired article (non-trivial, and precisely matching the examples used in WP:WEB) and also a similarly non-trivial article in Silver Bullet Comics[4]. Also strong rebuke to Fram for misrepresenting the Wired article as trivial. Balancer 20:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • There must be some confusion. Balancer is referring to a different Wired article than this? [5] —MURGH ^disc. 22:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
    • There surely must be some confusion indeed. This article[6], also by Wired, also discussing a webcomic in a very similar fashion, is used as a textbook example in WP:WEB of The content itself has been the subject of multiple and non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. Precedent is perfectly clear, and it is unclear what standard of "non-trivial" is in use by Fram in order to claim triviality. The standard outlined in WP:N is to disinclude directory listings and similar such non-selective batch mentions. The comic is mentioned multiple times in the article, and the author is being interviewed specifically as the author of the comic. Ergo, it is a non-trivial mention; ergo, between that and the Silver Bullet article, we have multiple non-trivial mentions from published sources independent of the Pirate Cove webcomic; ergo, it is notable by the standards of Wikipedia. Remember, notability is not subjective. Balancer 00:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
      • And yet somehow it is. This webcomic is nowhere near the subject of that Wired article. Its author is one of several briefly quizzed about how tough it is to get webcomics noticed. On the other hand, pending how Silverbullet fares as RS, that is one source. MURGH ^disc. 01:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I'm not going to begin to get into the notability debate, but I'd like to see some evidence of notability. However, this article in its current form is made of of two parts, a lead that is entirely original research and an overly long plot summery with no real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, per WP:NOT#IINFO. --Farix (Talk) 00:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Please see the links then. That provides firm evidence of notability. As far as the quality of the article... well... I recommend {cleanup} myself. Balancer 00:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
    • On non-trivial article by a publisher who's reliability I can't assess. One trivial mention in one Wired article, and not mention at all in the second you provided. Even if I did give Silver Bullet the benefit of the doubt, I don't see the evidence of notability yet. --Farix (Talk) 00:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think most of the sources you'll find unfamiliar, although WP:WEB seems to speak fairly highly of webzines. Clearly you and I disagree on what's trivial, so if I may, I think I'll try to sell you on this comic's notability without trying to convince you that the Wired article is non-trivial.

Silver Bullet bills themselves as the "most diverse" comic zine on the web. By "comic" they don't mean webcomic, actually. They're talking about comic books" - the printed kind - but apparently they occasionally decide to review a webcomic for the heck of it. It's apparently won an "Eagle Award"[7], which looks neat to me, and is described as "popular" and has been around publishing regular columns for a couple years.

I also just found a couple Sequential Tart reviews.[8] (review of one of the books) [9] (review of the comic strip). Sequential Tart is a webzine published monthly since 1999, with a couple bimonthly issues in 1998. It's about the comics industry and claims that it's out to raise awareness of women's influence within the comics industry. Looks fairly established. Balancer 06:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete the comic is non-notable, not sourced, and has no assertion of notability. It also reads like spam, and may very well be, given that the article was created by a single purpose account. Furthermore, the vast majority of the article is fancruft, which suggests that it was not created or maintained by editors applying encyclopedic standards. NetOracle 07:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Speedy delete is not interchangable with tag for cleanup. And is anybody going to actually read the argument for notability I presented above for Farix's sake (I know NetOracle has, in his one week here, never voted against a webcomics-related AFD, so it's wasted on him), or did I waste the time it took for me to investigate and establish the reliability of multiple independent sources discussing this comic in a clearly non-trivial fashion? Balancer 08:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, editors generally add AFDs they've commented on to their watch lists. If your comment is persuasive, early commentators will edit to reflect their change of mind. --Dragonfiend 10:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.