Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ordo Stella Matutina

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete as copyvio. I'm sorry guys, but copyright violations take precedence over any Non-delete votes in this AfD. However, per the consensus on this AfD, this article can certainly be created and kept as long as there is no copyrighted content. I checked this article, and it is essentially the same as the links that Bishonen gave. "there's only so many ways to phrase the information" is a common argument for copyright violations, but it's not a valid argument. There are many ways of writing something without breaking copyright. Teachers and professors will certainly agree with me. Deathphoenix ʕ 14:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• In fact, I have done so. I created a basic stub that doesn't violate any copyrights. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordo Stella Matutina

non-notable 999 (Talk) 21:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Please note that the nominator has withdrawn the nomination (see below) ---Baba Louis 22:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per my nom (disclosure: I started the article). -999 (Talk) 21:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - improvement of Stella Matutina and arguments of Baba Louis have caused me to change my mind again. Am I permitted to withdraw the nomination? -999 (Talk) 16:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy, copyvio. Of its six-line text (on my screen), half is an honestly acknowledged quote from http://www.ritual-magic.com/ — probably legally OK, but quite redundant and meaningless, as there are already no less than two links to ritual-magic.com on the tiny page. The rest is stitched up out of unacknowledged quotes lifted from ritual-magic.com, and from here, a "Witches of the World" group page also linked in the article. Not a legitimate word as far as the eye can see. Incidentally, the first sentence is identical to the first sentence of the Stella Matutina article (a little oddly, since I see you stating on Talk:Ordo Stella Matutina that they are utterly different things). Er, I see you started that article as well, 999. Is it all made up of quotes too? Bishonen | talk 22:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC).
  • Comment:, yes, I started Stella Matutina, but as a redirect to Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and then as a place to put info about the historic Stella Matutina that didn't belong here. I then realized the material was included in the main article and made it a redirect again. It was then revived by User:SynergeticMaggot. On the other topic, I don't think this is a copyvio. The only source of information is the website, which is an acceptable source in an article about the org itself. There's only so many ways basic info can be phrased, and only the quotes are exact wording. Whatever, I have since decided that the org is non-notable. -999 (Talk) 22:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, there's always room for disagreement about notability, and others may decide differently, so I'd like to avoid discussing a copyvio on the basis of non-notability. Only so many ways basic info can be phrased? I don't want to run this into the ground, but this is from http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_gr.html?a=uspr&id=27373: "The Ordo Stella Matutina is an initiatory Order dedicated to the dissemination of the traditional teachings of the historic Golden Dawn Hermetic Society through the process of initiation... The Hermetic Sanctuary of Ma’at (HSoM) is an online based mystery school ... governed and operated by the Chiefs of the Ordo Stella Matutina." And this is from the article, in fact it's most of the article: "The Ordo Stella Matutina is an initiatory Order founded in 2000 dedicated to the dissemination of the traditional teachings of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn through the process of initiation. The Order includes The Hermetic Sanctuary of Ma’at (HSoM), an online based mystery school governed and operated by the Chiefs of Ordo Stella Matutina." That's not using a source of information, it's a scissors operation. Bishonen | talk 23:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC).
      • That's hilarious. The only piece of infomation I took from that site was the date :-) The rest was already in the article before I discovered that site. Check the history. That just proves what I said: there's only so many ways to phrase the information. I summarized it from various pages on the order's website. Apparently the author of the witchvox site did too. -999 (Talk) 00:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as essentially incomprehensible. Just zis Guy you know? 22:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect: this article in my opinion should be used in conjunction with the Stella Matutina article, but if this cannot be done it should be deleted. There is imply not enough information to expand, yet if it were merged it would sit nicely in Stella Matutina. Zos 23:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: agreed that this article is not notable enough for it's lack of verifiability. Kephera975 04:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Since deletion is based on the soundness of arguments rather than a majority vote, it seems to me that since this article has not been expanded, it is still alltogether non-notable per Wikipedia's notability policy on organizations. Sure, the historical Stella Matutina is notable enough by published references, but there is no evidence indicating that this group is a descendent to or related to that historical organization. I say keep the historical Stella Matutina page and delete this one given that it is a stub with only a website to support it's existence. It is basically nothing more than a vanity page. Kephera975 19:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
• delete this, redirect to Stella Matutina if that is kept. Grutness...wha? 07:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per arguments of Zos, Baba Louis and Hanuman Das. Delete and redirect to Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Ekajati 14:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Ekajati 14:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I doubt this can be redirected to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article simply because there is no evidence of a connection just yet. ALthought there is a connection to Stella Matutina and should be redirected there if it is to be redirected. Zos 14:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, this organization is different from both Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and different from Stella Matutina. It should have its own article (but it certainly needs to be improved/expanded). ---Baba Louis 17:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and improve per Baba Louis. —Hanuman Das 17:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep article simply needs expansion and improvement --Frater Xyzzy 17:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Gurunath 03:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Theres a problem with expanding this article, as its a partial revival of the Stella Matutina, which was an offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. If there is no possibility of merging the Ordo stella, and the stella matutina, then I'll change my vote to delete. Zos 22:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.