Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/National anarchism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 03:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National anarchism

Non notable political ideology - only 559 unique google hits. This article has survived one previous AfD discussions and failed one: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/National anarchism and Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/National anarchism (2nd nomination).

• Keep because you consider a political ideology non-notable, it is invalid? It is still an ideology, perhaps the article could just be moved. Pindle 14:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non notable, possible hoax political philosophy. - FrancisTyers 11:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC) Would consider Move to Anarchism and nationalism for a detailed article on the connections between the two. - FrancisTyers 15:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or transform to Anarcho-Nationalism or Anarchism, racism and nationalism and broaden it out to include the whole gamut of anarchist nationalists. The proposal to delete it is POV.Harrypotter 13:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not particularly, how do you imagine that my proposal is POV. Do we have a page on libertarian fascism? Hell, maybe I should get a page :) I would not necessarily be opposed to a general page on Anarchism and nationalism. - FrancisTyers 13:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. Have you checked out Georges Valois? Just because you do not know much about something does not mean that it is non notable, or even a hoax. Also see A number of the demonstrators wore clothing bearing slogans such as "We Grew Here, You Flew Here", "Wog Free Zone", "Aussie Pride", "Fuck Allah - save 'Nulla", and "Ethnic Cleansing Unit". Chants of "Lebs out", "Lebs go home" and other expressions were continuously shouted out by many of the demonstrators, including some families with young children. A banner saying "LOCALS ONLY" with a symbol for anarchism in place of the "A" was displayed (Daily Telegraph, December 12). from 2005 Sydney race riots. Do you want libertarian fascism as an alternative to National Anarchism, or what? I have noticed that a number of people ndo not want any mention of this very real movement on wikipedia on what I feel may well be ostrich style POV reasons.Harrypotter 14:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The (A) symbol is used in many ways, association with the (A) symbol does not necessarily mean anarchist. I don't think libertarian fascism is an ideology, do you disagree? I read the page on George Valois, it doesn't say anything about national anarchism or libertarian fascism. I agree that in some cases people nominate articles for deletion as a result of Ostrich like behaviour and assure you that this is not one of them. As I said above, I would not necessarily have a problem with keeping the content provided it was moved to a general page about Anarchism and nationalism, or even if you like it could be moved to Anarchism, racism and nationalism. - FrancisTyers 14:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Move - to a more general page on eg. Anarchism and Nationalism .Unfortunately these people do exist - well, just about, maybe a couple of them, or at least they did. Personally I think wikipedia has room to comment on even the stupidest and most offensive ideas, as long as it's made clear just how tiny and marginal this bunch are, and that whatever they call themselves they're fascists not anarchists.Bengalski 13:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC) On closer inspection, we've got various scrappy pages or stubs on 'anarcho-nationalism', 'nationalist anarchism' etc., and I'm not sure there is any real difference between all these. So I think the best approach, per ideas above, would be to merge the lot into one decent page on the whole crew.Bengalski 15:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep --Terence Ong 14:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Kuzaar 14:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep existing political philosophy - unpopular, and not approved by you or I, but in existence nonetheless. Bobby P. Smith Sr. Jr. 14:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings for or against it to be honest, can you direct me to a book written by a National anarchist? I realise that books aren't the only indicator of notability but I think I could safely provide citations for most of the other political philosophies that Wikipedia covers. - FrancisTyers 14:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Never read one; I'll have to look into it. I see your point, but this is apparently a rather new ideology, in terms of coalescence. I'll have a look around a little later. Bobby P. Smith Sr. Jr. 15:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The national-anarchist movement was started by the security services as a honey trap. The trap has been exposed. National-anarchism is dead. The ideas were stolen from the national-bolsheviks (a much larger political force, especially in Russia) and the better insights are being marketed effecively by others who are not tainted by connections with MI5. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.64.225.145 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 March 2006.

Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be exposed again here.Bengalski 15:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Kepp. Highly objectionable "trojan horse" ideology with little or no real claim to anarchism. Noteworthy nonetheless. - N1h1l 15:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge if something to contain this non-anarchist national front naziness can be found. Take the alleged "faction" with it into a paragraph or small box in contemprary fascism or wherever it can be dfound a hole. Failing that, Delete it not for its irrational loathsomeness but for its pretensions. Midgley 15:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Anarchism has a long tradition of opposition to both nationalism and racism. This so-called ideology was created by marginal neo-fascists in an effort to attract more followers. Wikipedia shouldn't include every crackpot movement that attempts to revert the ideas of a long-standing political tendency with over a century of existence. Having an entry on "national anarchism" is like keeping one on "Satanic Catholicism." Just because a handful of people believe something that is opposite of an existing ideology with millions of proponents doesn't make it worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Chuck0 16:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There should definitely be an article on satanic catholicism.Bengalski 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete and/or merge move to anarchism and nationalism. 560 Google hits is not notable for its own article. -- infinity0 17:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Move to Anarchism and Nationalism per Bengalski. The Ungovernable Force 17:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Merge or Delete - non existing ideology. // Liftarn 18:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: The page Nationalist anarchism might also be of interest to those voting here. Fightindaman 19:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Move to Nationalism and anarchism might be the best solution. Sarge Baldy 20:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or make it a redirect to Nationalism and anarchism which should have the same content. PMLF 06:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Keep OK so it's not a huge political movement but there are groups in the world who choose to identify themselves as national anarchists. Don't redirect to Nationalism and anarchism as, whilst this would be a worthy topic, National anarchism is a specifically modern term that deserves its own entry whilst a new article would have a wider, more historical, scope. Keresaspa 14:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --metzerly 09:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: I think there should be a page called Anarchism and nationalism like Anarchism and capitalism and Anarchism and Marxism in the side panel. The convention seems to be have the words placed in alphabetical order, or am I wrong here? When that page has been fully developed, we shoudl be able to better see whether national anarchism deserves its own page.Harrypotter 22:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep While I do support the political position of No platform for fascists whatsoever, it's only Anarchist Occultists who want to cloak, censor and delete this p[articu;larly telling manifestation of their so-called politics. Paki.tv 15:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • huh? - N1h1l 18:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep I can't believe that once again somebody has put this article up for deletion, only six month after the last AfD. The results of the last vote were to keep the article - what's changed since then. Moves to delete this article are blatantly POV - I should remind those who keep brining this article up for deletion that just because you disagree with this ideology or disagree with the fact that they call themselves anarchists is not a valid reason for deletion. I'm reposting from the last AfD why I think this article is important and should be kept: "The argument for deletion is blantly POV and sectarian in nature and smacks of censorship. (Which this move entirely hypocritical coming from so-called anarchists, but I've seen worse similar hypocrisy coming out of that movement before.) It is simply an attempt by Toothebarricades to delete an article based entirely on the fact that he does not like national anarchists calling themselves anarchists. Whether or not "national anarchists" is a valid as an exponent of anarchism (and I happen to agree that it isn't good anarchism) is entirely irrelevant to whether there should be an article on this topic here on Wikipedia. The argument that the argument is too non-notable to warrant a Wikipedia article is entirely false - the long list of links on this page, the large number of websites (both pro- and anti-NA) resulting from a Google search for "national anarchist" or "national anarchism", the obvious influence it has in the neofolk music milieu, plus the very active National Anarchist Yahoo Group are all evidence that this is a topic of interest and criticism for many people and therefore well-deserving of a Wikipedia page to introduce interested people to the topic. There are plenty of Wikipedia articles on Trotskyist tendencies that are far more obscure. " Peter G Werner 19:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment, I'm disappointed that you suggest that my motivations for posting an AfD for this article are different from what I have described. Is there one of those google hits that you would classify as a scholarly source? As for a very active Yahoo Group, does this mean that we should support keeping articles for all kinds of forums, after all, there are many forums which are pretty active (and probably more active than that one) without articles. Forumcruft is not something that really floats my boat so to speak. I can appreciate that I'm not going to change your mind on this, but it would be nice if keep voters actually attempted to show how this "group" (for want of a better word) is notable instead of crying loud about some kind of perceived censorship. See above for my response to "blatantly POV and sectarian". - FrancisTyers 20:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

An abstract of a journal article on national-anarchism and related tendencies: [1]

I have to ask, though, just what is your motivation for deleting this article, if not POV? Especially in light of the fact that an AfD for this article was up only 6 months ago and it was decided that the article should be kept. Did you even bother to review the previous arguments about the articles relevance? It seems to me that the reason this article keeps coming up for AfD over and over again is because its on the hit list of various left anarchists who really don't like the idea of a far-right and racialist ideology calling itself a kind of anarchism. I'll point out again that whether its good anarchism or not (and I happen to agree with critics who say it isn't) is totally irrelevant to its relevance as a Wikipedia article.

I have serious doubts about your criterion for dropping this article, in any event. The active Yahoo Group, plus the website Rosenoir.org, plus 596 Google hits, are quite sufficient to me to state that this is an ideological tendency with actual adherents and has an active place in the marketplace of ideas, and not just some kind of hoax that somebody made up off the top of their head. This is not to mention the controversies around national anarchism and similar ideas - do a Google search for "Anarchist Heretics Fair" and you'll see that there was a rather large controversy in the anarchist and anti-fascist press about this ideological tendency. I'll also point you to FluxEuropa for an example of the influence that "national anarchist" or "third position" ideas have in the milieu of neofolk, martial music, and other "dark music".

If your criterion is that National Anarchism too small of a tendency to be taken seriously (which I think is a pretty dodgy reason for dropping an article), here's some other groups which you might want to float AfD's for: International Bolshevik Tendency, Socialist Action (Canada), Trotskyist-Posadist IVth International, Communist Party of Trinidad and Tobago, Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, Last Thursdayism. If National Anarchism is too obscure of a subject, why should these other obscure groups get to have Wikipedia pages? For my part, I'd be against dropping any of these pages - one of the best things about Wikipedia is the fact that you can find good information on subjects that are way too obscure for Encyclopedia Britannica. Peter G Werner 16:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, in brief, I don't have long, yes I would vote delete to most of those (probably not CPTT), but I wouldn't AfD them as because you have mentioned them i would be violating WP:POINT. Regarding Peter Werner, you should get a page as with >200,000 hits you're pretty notable :) Note on the journal article, well, you've convinced me, they are notable enough not to delete outright. Good searching. - FrancisTyers 00:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact the Yahoo group is not particularly active -- a handful of individuals post there repeatedly, sometimes using different nyms (nyms are a big thing with these guys -- something to be taken into account when counting the 'keep' votes, as well as their ability to summon up large numbers of meatpuppets). Their Yahoo group is in serious decline -- the original group was attracting over a thousand contributions per month a few years ago. Now their group is struggling to reach 400. The original group was banned for TOS violations and the current one is mostly chitchat.

This is a pretty serious accusation: "a handful of individuals post there repeatedly, sometimes using different nyms (nyms are a big thing with these guys -- something to be taken into account when counting the 'keep' votes, as well as their ability to summon up large numbers of meatpuppets)." Can you demonstrate that any of the above Keep voters are actually sockpuppets? Put up or shut up! So far, this discussion has failed to generate anything approaching a consensus to drop - your accusation that most of the Keep votes are mere sockpuppets is a pretty dodgy attempt to tilt things in your direction. Peter G Werner 16:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Surely Troy Southgate's organising a meeting between Alexander Dugin and representativs of the BNP makes him and N-A notable. Also there is Leonard Savin's infiltration of Peoples Global Action which came to light last year. There has also been the involvement of anarchists in promoting Neuropa, in the context of Euromayday project. The overtly and conscious fascist elements of national anarchism run alongside - and hopes to influence - an unreflected institutional racism found in a movement which fetishises the state and finds it hard to look at its own failure to live up to its so-called principles.Harrypotter 18:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Who is "Leonard Savin"? Google doesn't seem to know [2]. - N1h1l 14:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Try Leonid Savin

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.