Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martyn Woolford

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keeping Talbott, Flynn, and Parslow. Deleting the rest.. Avi 16:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martyn Woolford

Martyn Woolford (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

The second part of my analysis of Conference players started here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Benson WP:BIO states that the players must have made an appearance in a fully professional league. Woolford has not played a league game above Conference level.

For the same reason, I am nominating Noureddine Maamria, Liam Blakeman, Nathan Talbott, Wayne Daniel (footballer), Craig Lovatt, Nathan Smith (footballer), Danny Edwards (footballer), Ged Murphy,r Chris Seeby, Scott Cousins, Tom Davis (footballer), Rambir Marwa, Paul Hakim, Dean Cracknell, Ricky Perks, Simon Martin (footballer), Lee Flynn, Ben Martin, Nick Roddis, Jason Goodliffe, Michael Touhy, Kyle Storer, Dave Clarke (footballer), Shaun Ridgway, Harry Hambleton, Tony James (footballer), Craig McAllister, James Bittner, Neal Bishop, Byron Webster, Darren Hollingsworth, Alex Rhodes (footballer born 1988), Arran Reid and Daniel Parslow. I've been through these players Soccerbase profiles and again can't spot any League appearances.

I know the Conference is approaching fully-professional status, but until it attains that these players fail WP:BIO. Precedents are here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicky Gray and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicky Eyre

• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. HornetMike 23:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
• Very weak keep Daniel Parslow as under-21 player (I'm open to counter arguments though, anyway other youth teams don't suffice). The articles of Danny Edwards and Ged Murphy assert notability (playing above Conference), but this is not backed up by Soccerbase.com. The rest of the articles are in trouble per WP:BIO, English Conference is not a high enough level. Punkmorten 23:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all per nomination. Qwghlm 00:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Lee Flynn played in the football league with Barnet in 2000-01. Also Edwards played for Shrewsbury in 2002-03 and Ben Martin played for Swindon once. ArtVandelay13 00:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep especially Daniel Parslow + strong keep others Daniel Parslow is a former under-21 INTERNATIONAL with caps; that seems worthy of an article to me. I don't think the existence of these articles does anyone harm anyway. -- Mattythewhite 08:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'd recommend being very wary of using soccerbase as the way of backing this up. Nathan Talbott has played in the league for Yeovil Town according to the Stafford Rangers website for example. Doesn't help when the articles don't say this though! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiGull (talk • contribs).

Further comment and a suggestion. Talbott and Flynn are the only two who appear to have played a game at a higher level than the Conference (I've added to those two articles to clarify this). Danny Edwards did not, the Edwards that played for Shrewsbury in 2002-03 was Dave Edwards. Not sure about Ged Murphy as he may or may not have played for Oldham. If the others are to be deleted, how about transferring the details to a section on the club page about non-notable (in the WP:BIO) sense players? WikiGull 10:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep These articles should be kept.-- Stokie matt 16:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Could you elaborate as to why they should be kept? ChrisTheDude 16:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Stokie matt's only contributions are to this afd. Possible single purpose account? Robotforaday 18:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Nathan Talbott- played professionally for Yeovil. Keep Lee Flynn- played professionally for Barnet before they were relegated into the conference. Weak keep Daniel Parslow- several caps for Wales U21. Delete ALL OTHERS as not meeting the criteria of WP:BIO of having played in a fully professional league, and not having any evidence of other verifiable notability. Robotforaday 18:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In addition to above, Keep Dino Maamria per ArtVandelay13. Robotforaday 14:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - should Dino Maamria's spell at Charleston Battery save him? There are a fair few USL First Division players on WP, and although those appearances won't appear on Soccerbase, you can be fairly sure he played for their first-team. ArtVandelay13 00:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit- this shows he played 9 times in the US, and refers to him as a former Tunisian Under-21 international. Setting up the redirect from his shortened name (Dino) also reveals a link from the Tunisian senior team article, but I'm not sure he was ever a full international. ArtVandelay13 00:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep - There is very little difference in standard between League 2 and the Conference. Playing for aconference side is a lot more significant than bring a youth team player in league 2 Ram4eva 16:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - And Conference North/South isn't much different from the Conference. Where you draw the line? HornetMike 17:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Just so you know, youth team players in League 2 (or in the Premier League, for that matter) would generally be deleted, unless they'd made an appearance for the first team. Robotforaday 20:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of youth and reserve players at big and not so big clubs who have never played first team football. So that is a lot of work to do to get rid of them. Ram4eva 10:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply I would argue the Conference is the lowest league that should have player profiles in its own right as it is a professional league (personally I think 5 full time divisions is too many) , Conference North and South are not so any profiles should only be for players who have dropped down. Ram4eva 19:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep These articles should be kept. A lot of time, effort and research has gone into them, and it is what wikipedia is all about. Some of the Tamworth players suggested for deletion where nation television the other day and one even scored (Kyle Storer). DO NOT DELETE THESE PROFILES!!! -- Jonesy702 16:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not what Wikipedia's all about. Wikipedia's about creating a verifiable online encyclopedia. I could put a lot of effort into writing an article about me. Wouldn't mean it should be kept. And if we had an article for everyone who appeared on television... HornetMike 17:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

So your telling me, hours of work on professional footballers is just going to be deleted off because they are not in the top flight, please! And what do you mean you could write an article about yourself, you have, it's called your user profile, wake up!. All I'm saying is that the lower down teams deserve as much recognition as the Premiership, these players still go out on Saturday afternoon and play football for 90 minutes and if you ask me, a better quality of football than the Premiership sometimes. If there was a profile for every player in the Conference who would that be hurting? No one. it would just educate people. I think some people need to stop being so picky. -- Jonesy702 22:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying these players should be deleted because they're not playing in the top flight, don't put words in my mouth. The point is, if Wikipedia is to maintain its standards, there has to be a point whether you're either worthy of a page or not. According to guidelines WP:BIO, Conference players are the wrong side of that line, so they should be deleted. The point I was trying to make with "an article about myself" (and by the way, the userpage shouldn't really be an article about oneself!) is that you can't use the justification that people have put time into something as grounds for keeping it. One could create an article on something utterly trivial (like me!) and devote huge amounts of time to it, but that doesn't mean it's worthy of a place on Wikipedia. Cheers, HornetMike 00:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

So what you are saying is if a team is relegated from League 2, all the profiles for each and every player should be deleted? and if your own userpage should not "really be an article about oneself", who should it be about? -- Jonesy702 01:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

No. If a player plays in League 2 or above they pass notability criteria. That's why I haven't nominated every single player in the Conference. All the players (well, not all, I've made a couple of mistakes) have only played as high as the Conference, and thus do not pass WP:BIO. Re: the user page, it should contain information about you, but I would call it an article per se! Cheers, HornetMike 01:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

One thing is that the BBC, Sky Sports websites etc all give as much coverage on the Conference as they do on other leagues; the BBC site has profiles for all Conference National clubs, and Sky Sports provides news for them. -- Mattythewhite 10:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair point, but I'd argue that the press covers them far less. You might get a report on League 2 sides in the papers, but it's very unlikely you'll see anything but results for Conference sides. HornetMike 11:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

erm Danny Edwards HAS played for shewsbury, i saw him play for them in a competitive match. Also Ged Murphy has played in for Oldham Athletic during his time there. I also feel the line is to high why not stop players profiles at Conference North/South.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pique28 (talk • contribs).

Sorry, but the principle of an encyclopedia is that it requires sources in order to make the information verifiable. If you can provide sources to show that these players played, then please do, but we can't just take the recollection of someone who may or may not have seen them when there is no other evidence- in effect, to do otherwise would be to accept original research, as odd as that might sound. I myself strongly disagree with opening the floodgates to allow semi-professional footballers at conference and conference north/south level, but this is of course open to debate. You may wish to argue with the point at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football, and establish a new consensus of notability. The state at the moment, however, is that the players (with the exception of the few noted above) fall below the level of notability established by consensus at WP:BIO, that is, footballers who have played in a fully professional league. Robotforaday 15:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the Yorkshire Post and York Press both give detailed match reports for York City who are in the Conference National, and the BBC also gives a match report which also includes statistics on the match. -- Mattythewhite 18:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree Tamworth get the same kind of coverage in the midlands area. They often featured in the Birmingham Evening Mail as well as the BBC website. -- Jonesy702 14:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I have to agree, some hard work has been put into these profiles and it shouldn't matter whether they are world class players or semi professionals, people work hard to make these profiles for others benefit, I cannot believe some people have the time to go over wikipedia with a fine toothcombe looking for things they don't like, my advice is get a life pal, there are more important things in life than deleting off profiles of players that you don't like. Anyway Hornet man the way Watford are playing they will soon be in the Conference and we can delete off all their profiles when that happens.

Stew jones 00:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete all per nom. WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IWORKEDONITHARDYOUDELETIONIST are not reasons to keep. These players fail WP:BIO and that is a reason good enough for me to vote delete here. – Elisson • T • C • 15:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete all. They are even able to fail a way too inclusionist list of notability principles on WP:BIO. --Angelo 15:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - They don't all fail WP:BIO —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiGull (talk • contribs).
• Keep Parslow, Flynn, Talbott and Maamria based on above discussions. Delete others. ArtVandelay13 17:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep all - particularly those who have played one or more league games, U-21 internationals, or who have represented the English National Game XI. My experience is that Conference clubs/players DO get almost as much write up as their League 2 equivalents - the results are read out on Final Score/5 Live etc, and listed in the same newspapers as the League 2 results. Bookies offer odds on them the same way as League 2 games. Plus, there is a 60-page newspaper each week "The Non-League Paper", of which probably half is dedicated to Conference reports/features/speculation etc. Not to mention local sources. - fchd 17:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'd just like to point out that this debate is lurching towards a generalised discussion on whether or not Conference players should be considered notable. As the current WP:BIO guidelines say they aren't (not a fully professional league) surely such a discussion is better suited to WP:FOOTBALL where the supporters of this view could endeavour to establish a consensus for changing the guidlines.....? ChrisTheDude 18:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all with the possible exception of Flynn and Maamria if their brief careers as professionals are shown to have non-trivial media coverage - though no sources demonstrating this have yet been provided. Talbott's professional career consists of a single substitute appearance which did not merit a mention in the local press report about the match [1]. Oldelpaso 18:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all - fail to meet WP:BIO. If the Keepers wish to make Conference players notable then this should be done through a separate policy proposal. The only basis for a keep would be multiple non-trivial sources that have not been produced. BlueValour 04:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Nathan Talbott, Lee Flynn and Daniel Parslow Nathan Talbott made fl appearance for Yeovil Town. Lee Flynn played for Barnet when they were in Football League. Daniel Parslow played for England under 21s. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Englishrose (talk • contribs) 11:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
• Comment Soccerbase is, in no way, a definitive reference source. More authorative locations are the post war database [2] (though would merit a search engine) or, even better, a complete database from 1888 [3] (though sadly much of the info here is now subscription only). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AlbertBroadbent (talk • contribs).
• Keep Nathan Talbott, Lee Flynn and Daniel Parslow as per Englishrose. 1888 [4] does not show anything more for any of the listed players that has not already been mentioned. Daemonic Kangaroo 19:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.