Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Malakas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You have new messages (last change).
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus to delete; but merging to a new article on Greek profanity seems like an agreeable approach. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-11 05:31Z
[edit] Malakas
It's a Greek word with no English usage; I can't think what the article is doing here (are we going to have articles on every term in every language?). [Besides, if everyone in England knows what it means, I'll have to stop using it...] Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, wikipedia is not a dictionary RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 16:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete; I see no third-party reliable sources that show this word is in use outside the Greek language, and even if they exist I'd prefer this to be transwikied to Wiktionary. However, I'm so happy to have met a nice new word today. --Charlene 16:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. Wikipedia is not a (Greek) (slang) dictionary, and the main use of this article (see its Special:Whatlinkshere/Malakas What links here) seems to be explaining the use of the word in Talk pages. As for the "sources", there are lots of joke books in many languages about slang terms -- I remember one in French about "con". --Macrakis 16:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Difficult keep while Wikipedia is not an encyclopaedia or dictionary of slang, this is one of the more widespread terms. The citations aren't so bad (it actually has some compared to many slang articles). The word is not used in English, however it is very widely used (from my experience) in Greek. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I think it just about notable enough. However, is there a List of Greek slang that it could possibly be merged with? - Francis Tyers · 16:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it's used in Greek: it's a Greek word. That's hardly the point, though, given that this is an English-language encyclopædia. I can't think why we'd have a list of Greek slang words either; do you think that we should have a list of slang for every language? And why only slang? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The article title was merely an example, I'm not suggesting we have a list of "all" Greek slang, however the word is very widely used. I could see renaming being an option (perhaps to Malakas (Greek slang)) as there is another Malakas [1]. - Francis Tyers · 17:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- No, no, it's widely used in Greece; that's not our criterion for inclusion. They also widely use Kolos tou theou, Poustis, Poutana, k.t.l. — must we have articles on all those too? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Kolos tou theou is not used not even in Greece... (where have u heard this term?). Poustis and Poutana are the Greek equivalents of English terms (no need to say which are they), and are used solely in Greece. But the word Malakas has a different meaning than any English word (and may be used in cases were different English words would be used). The fact remains that this is a word the foreigners know, especially those who have been in Greece, or those who live in the centers of the Greek diaspora (principally in USA, Australia, Canada, UK i.e. English-speaking world). Hectorian 18:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Kolos tou theou might be just Cypriot, then. My comments below, though, stand. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Kolos tou theou is not used not even in Greece... (where have u heard this term?). Poustis and Poutana are the Greek equivalents of English terms (no need to say which are they), and are used solely in Greece. But the word Malakas has a different meaning than any English word (and may be used in cases were different English words would be used). The fact remains that this is a word the foreigners know, especially those who have been in Greece, or those who live in the centers of the Greek diaspora (principally in USA, Australia, Canada, UK i.e. English-speaking world). Hectorian 18:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- No, no, it's widely used in Greece; that's not our criterion for inclusion. They also widely use Kolos tou theou, Poustis, Poutana, k.t.l. — must we have articles on all those too? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The article title was merely an example, I'm not suggesting we have a list of "all" Greek slang, however the word is very widely used. I could see renaming being an option (perhaps to Malakas (Greek slang)) as there is another Malakas [1]. - Francis Tyers · 17:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it's used in Greek: it's a Greek word. That's hardly the point, though, given that this is an English-language encyclopædia. I can't think why we'd have a list of Greek slang words either; do you think that we should have a list of slang for every language? And why only slang? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. It is one of the most known modern Greek terms in the English-speaking world. For whatever reasons, it has become a very popular word in modern Greek culture, and is used in everyday speech, and not only. as a cultural phenomenon, its origins, usage and derivatives are presented and analyzed. Furthermore, we must have in mind that articles about slang words do exist (e.g. son of a bitch, asshole, etc), and I suppose none has called for their deletion... Hectorian 17:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out, there is no source to show that it's widely known, much less used, outside Greece & Cyprus. And of course we have articles about some slang terms — but they're English slang terms, because this is an English-language encyclopædia. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, this is the Greek word that most non Greeks know... At least, this is by far the most popular answer I get when I ask them if they know any Greek word (u know, the words 'acropolis', 'democracy', 'philosophy', 'mythology' are considered Greek loanwords in English). I would agree with a move Francis proposed, so as to avoid confusion with the straits and the peninsula in SE Asia (with the creation of a disambinguition page, though). Hectorian 18:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- "To my knowledge" isn't good enough (and in any case, even if it were the best-known Greek word, why does that qualify it for inclusion in an encyclopædia? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, this is the Greek word that most non Greeks know... At least, this is by far the most popular answer I get when I ask them if they know any Greek word (u know, the words 'acropolis', 'democracy', 'philosophy', 'mythology' are considered Greek loanwords in English). I would agree with a move Francis proposed, so as to avoid confusion with the straits and the peninsula in SE Asia (with the creation of a disambinguition page, though). Hectorian 18:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out, there is no source to show that it's widely known, much less used, outside Greece & Cyprus. And of course we have articles about some slang terms — but they're English slang terms, because this is an English-language encyclopædia. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete; unlike Re, where I voted Keep, there's nothing in the article to suggest that this term is used widely outside the Greek-speaking world. Would be notable enough to merit an article on the Greek Wikipedia, but not here. Walton monarchist89 18:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. I would definitely be a "delete" if we had an article concentrated on the etymology and the meanings of a word - Wikipedia is not a dictionary; we have Wiktionary. But "malakas" in Greece is something beyond that. Like zamanfou, this term has become a symbol of a neo-hellenic cultural phainomenon; it constitutes the symbolism of an every-day social attitude, and it illustrates a particular stance towards life. I understand that for a foreigner this is difficult to be understood, but in Greece the terms "malakas", "malakia" etc. are in the center of sociological, political, and even philosophical analysis. The current article may not successsfully illustrate the various aspects of this term, but there is room for improvement.--Yannismarou 19:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- These would, if true, all be grounds for keeping the article in the Greek Wikipedia; they're all, however, irrelevant to this case. It's a Greek word, not in use in English-speaking countries. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- WP is an encyclopedia, which means it deals with things and ideas, and with words primarly as a way of referring to things and ideas. The idea of a 'jerk' (for which, by the way, there is not a WP article...) is cross-cultural: compare French 'con', Yiddish 'shmuck', etc. Of course, the nuances of the various words and their usage vary from language to language, but I don't see that they need separate articles; perhaps the current shmuck and malakas articles should be merged under the English name, 'jerk'.
- As for the notion that it is the Greek word that most non-Greeks know, that sounds like original research.
- Re Zamanfou, that should probably be merged with cynicism or something -- at least that's a word of Greek origin :-) .
- --Macrakis 20:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oh come on, Stavro, you know that's true! Most people I've met from abroad say "malaka" is the first word they learnt when they set foot in Greece! That's hardly WP:OR; it's common knowledge! NikoSilver 22:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- "It's common knowledge" is almost the stereotype of original research. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oh come on, Stavro, you know that's true! Most people I've met from abroad say "malaka" is the first word they learnt when they set foot in Greece! That's hardly WP:OR; it's common knowledge! NikoSilver 22:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- These would, if true, all be grounds for keeping the article in the Greek Wikipedia; they're all, however, irrelevant to this case. It's a Greek word, not in use in English-speaking countries. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. To my knowledge, the best-known Greek word in the English-speaking world is spanakopita.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 20:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - out of place in English encyclopedia, and is not the best-known Greek word in English by any stretch of the imagination. Have a look: The English Language -Words Borrowed from Greek ◄Zahakiel► 20:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Malaka...(sorry) I mean Keep! Interestingly, Malaka in English (without the straits etc) is actually used more than twice as much than Μαλάκα is used in Greek! And, yes, it is a cultural phenomenon compared to the dozens, so it's interesting to know. Doesn't hurt, not more than souvlaki, choriatiki or feta at least! (unlike tzatziki which can be quite harmful!) NikoSilver 22:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)- First of all, the search doesn't really tell you much. It includes lots of Greek-written-in-Latin (Greeklish) as well as Libyan, Ethiopian, etc. names. Secondly, frequency of use isn't the issue: there are lots of English words which are much more common, but don't belong in WP, e.g. "within", "putrid", "lukewarm", because they don't express an encyclopedic concept. Finally, even if the Greek word is somehow expressing concept that has a special place in Greek culture, say φιλότιμο or νονός, this is an English-language encyclopedia, so we put the discussion under the English equivalent, even if it isn't exact, e.g. honor, godfather, or in an article like "Anthropology of Greece" or "Pride in Greek culture" or "Greek social structure" or whatever. --Macrakis 23:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- So what is the "encyclopedic concept" in asshole, dork, bastard, son of a bitch, or the dozens?... And why shouldn't these be added to "Anthropology of English speaking populations" or "Pride in english speaking culture" or "English speaking social structure" or whatever? And why should there be five entries (!) for the same concept in English, and none for the most frequent Greek word? Especially when it's extensively used by the huge Greek diaspora in English-speaking countries? And again, what is the harm? (compared to tzatziki :-)) NikoSilver 23:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The only one of those that is encyclopedic is the dozens, because it is the English name of a very specific phenomenon. As for "bastard", it does not have an article; it is in the illegitimacy article, as you must have noticed when you made the link. I don't think the others belong in WP under those names. I'd think that at best they belong in an article on Insults (with subsections on U.S., U.K., Japan, Greece, etc.) or English Profanity or something. Use by the Greek diaspora is irrelevant. You can see that it doesn't behave like a normal encyclopedia article in that there are almost no links to it from other articles, except Talk pages. I think the Spanish profanity article is a much better model for organizing this sort of information. --Macrakis 00:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- And then why, Macrakis, Coño has its own article? Coño deserves a place in Wikipedia, while malakas doesn't?--Yannismarou 12:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- You'll be happy to hear that I have put a mergeto|Spanish profanity on that article. --Macrakis 16:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not happy for the proposed merge, because IMO it is a wrong and uncyclopedic move. But I am happy because, at least, you remain consistent in your (wrong IMO) stance.--Yannismarou 18:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- You'll be happy to hear that I have put a mergeto|Spanish profanity on that article. --Macrakis 16:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- And then why, Macrakis, Coño has its own article? Coño deserves a place in Wikipedia, while malakas doesn't?--Yannismarou 12:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- The only one of those that is encyclopedic is the dozens, because it is the English name of a very specific phenomenon. As for "bastard", it does not have an article; it is in the illegitimacy article, as you must have noticed when you made the link. I don't think the others belong in WP under those names. I'd think that at best they belong in an article on Insults (with subsections on U.S., U.K., Japan, Greece, etc.) or English Profanity or something. Use by the Greek diaspora is irrelevant. You can see that it doesn't behave like a normal encyclopedia article in that there are almost no links to it from other articles, except Talk pages. I think the Spanish profanity article is a much better model for organizing this sort of information. --Macrakis 00:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- So what is the "encyclopedic concept" in asshole, dork, bastard, son of a bitch, or the dozens?... And why shouldn't these be added to "Anthropology of English speaking populations" or "Pride in english speaking culture" or "English speaking social structure" or whatever? And why should there be five entries (!) for the same concept in English, and none for the most frequent Greek word? Especially when it's extensively used by the huge Greek diaspora in English-speaking countries? And again, what is the harm? (compared to tzatziki :-)) NikoSilver 23:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, the search doesn't really tell you much. It includes lots of Greek-written-in-Latin (Greeklish) as well as Libyan, Ethiopian, etc. names. Secondly, frequency of use isn't the issue: there are lots of English words which are much more common, but don't belong in WP, e.g. "within", "putrid", "lukewarm", because they don't express an encyclopedic concept. Finally, even if the Greek word is somehow expressing concept that has a special place in Greek culture, say φιλότιμο or νονός, this is an English-language encyclopedia, so we put the discussion under the English equivalent, even if it isn't exact, e.g. honor, godfather, or in an article like "Anthropology of Greece" or "Pride in Greek culture" or "Greek social structure" or whatever. --Macrakis 23:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Weak keep Article provides one reliable and non-trivial source (the Karamitsiou paper), so topic may be notable. "Not English slang" is not a reason for deletion. If a topic has non-trivial coverage in multiple reliable sources, then it's notable. Articles about individual items of foreign slang certainly need to be linked from other articles (e.g. List of Greek slang) so that people can find them, but I see no reason that the notable ones need to be merged into such lists.cab 23:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment per Macrakis, an article on Greek profanity with Malakas redirecting to Greek profanity#Malakas would not be a terrible way of organising this. - Francis Tyers · 10:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Second that, but that means don't delete, just merge into a non-existant (yet) article. Therefore it means expand and rename (and then create a redirect to the previous title). I'll just go WP:BOLD and try this. Feel free to revert me. NikoSilver 11:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'll do my best, in order not to revert you (!), and I will not object this solution, although I'm not sure I agree (well, most probably I disagree!); I still believe that malakas can still stand as an article, maybe as a sub-article of Greek profanity, if you treat the socio-cultural(-philosophical) aspects of the term, and you include them in the current article. "Malakas" is not just "Greek profanity". It is something more, and something else; I understand it is difficult for a non-Greek to realize that, but when we see satirical TV shows or even modern Greek movies or even modern theatrical plays, we understand that we have to do with something more than mere "profanity". I think that encyclopedically we choke malakas putting it under the label of "profanity".--Yannismarou 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't question that "malakas" has a special place in people's, um, hearts. The question is simply how to discuss that in an encyclopedia. Interesting that there is no "jerk" article; on the other hand, it is understandable that there is a "nerd" article, because it is talking about an identifiable social phenomenon (which is cross-cultural, by the way). --Macrakis 16:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- And why Coño has its own article? Coño deserves a place in Wikipedia, while malakas doesn't?--Yannismarou 12:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, it should be merged into Spanish profanity. --Macrakis 16:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- And why Coño has its own article? Coño deserves a place in Wikipedia, while malakas doesn't?--Yannismarou 12:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't question that "malakas" has a special place in people's, um, hearts. The question is simply how to discuss that in an encyclopedia. Interesting that there is no "jerk" article; on the other hand, it is understandable that there is a "nerd" article, because it is talking about an identifiable social phenomenon (which is cross-cultural, by the way). --Macrakis 16:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'll do my best, in order not to revert you (!), and I will not object this solution, although I'm not sure I agree (well, most probably I disagree!); I still believe that malakas can still stand as an article, maybe as a sub-article of Greek profanity, if you treat the socio-cultural(-philosophical) aspects of the term, and you include them in the current article. "Malakas" is not just "Greek profanity". It is something more, and something else; I understand it is difficult for a non-Greek to realize that, but when we see satirical TV shows or even modern Greek movies or even modern theatrical plays, we understand that we have to do with something more than mere "profanity". I think that encyclopedically we choke malakas putting it under the label of "profanity".--Yannismarou 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Second that, but that means don't delete, just merge into a non-existant (yet) article. Therefore it means expand and rename (and then create a redirect to the previous title). I'll just go WP:BOLD and try this. Feel free to revert me. NikoSilver 11:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment-Arguments for notability. Μελετητής said: "It's a Greek word, not in use in English-speaking countries." Well, I definitely disagree! It depends on how we use the term "use". We, the jurists, we know in our terminology a term "lato sensu". Well, lato sensu of course the word "malakas" is used in English-speaking countries. It is the most notable neo-hellenic word around the world, and, even for the non-Greeks who have visited Greece, "malakas" is something more than a simple word; they understand that they have to do with a socio-cultural term; a word-symbol. I don't say that everybody in the world knows the world, but, yes, many many people around the world, beyond Greeks themselves, know the term, and its broader aspects. Not many people in th world know the city of Larissa, but I haven't seen anybody here questioning its notability. And why, Coño has its own article? Coño deserves a place in Wikipedia, while malakas doesn't? For all these reasons, IMO, the above argument of Μελετητής is, at least, weak.--Yannismarou 11:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yanni, I agree with your reasoning 100%. However, the fact remains that presently the article does not reflect the anthropological extent of the word adequately (save Areti's paper). I'm sure it can be reflected better, and when it does, I'll be the first to {{main}} it out per Coño et al. Let's work on it. NikoSilver 12:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- weak keep for greek profanity - Even if the word Malakas isn't used in English speaking countries wikipedia should try to counteract systematic bias anyway by providing info from different cultures- a non-Anglo centric way of looking at the world. Remember it is english wikipedia not England's wikipedia. I agree with the redirect to the page. While the page is not exactly of the highest integrity if some of those highly offensive words in English have an article then why should a page on greek words not exist? It does have a cultural aspect to it but I would suggest more professional sources are used even more to discuss it further, making in more encylopedic rather than verging on a dictionary which wikipedia is NOT. Moreover I would feel an article on List of Greek slang covering the greek profanities such as Malakas would be better suited. Ernst Stavro Blofeld 11:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Ok, I've done my best in moving to Greek profanity and expanding with an intro. We can always {{main}} it out when it becomes bigger and when we include more academic views. I didn't touch the (now) redirect Malakas to direct it to the fresh Greek profanity#Malakas, in case someone wants to undo my changes. NikoSilver 12:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per Yannismarou.--Aldux 22:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, notable; merger might be good, but there would be a lot to merge. Everyking 06:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Do we agree that the merge into the new Greek profanity article is a good solution? If so, let's close the Afd and remove the tag. Objections? --Macrakis 16:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- No objection, but the article must get a proper Greek profanity article; not a malakas article named Greek profanity (and I still instist, Macrakis, that both coño and malakas deserve a place in Wikipedia! I also expect Μελετητής or you to ask for the deletion of the Coño article.)--Yannismarou 19:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what people (and especially NikoSilver) is thinking of, but the article Malakas is still being discussed here. It isn't acceptable to move it to a completely different name and try to turn it into a different article. I've moved it back and reverted to the article that's being discussed here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Perfect, thank you. I had regretted that move myself, since I tend to agree with Yanni. NikoSilver 23:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep per Hectorian. Very informative and well-written article. Malakaville 12:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Dicdef Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. It's notable per its usage by a famous satirist. Nardman1 14:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. As bad as it is, this word is establishing itself in American English. /FunkyFly.talk_ 16:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Update. Happy I see again the article with its proper article. Like Nicos, I also thank you Μελετητής. Now the article is back in its previous form, I initiated some further improvements:
-
- I added a new section about the criticisms the broad usage of "malakas" caused in linguistic and teaching circles of modern Greece.
- I added a new section treating the sociological, sociolinguistic aspects of the usage of the term "malakas" through a construvist approach some authors adopt.
I know that the article still has flaws. "Trivia" needs trimming in another section, and I also intend to add a new section treating he usage of "malakas" in Art. If the article is saved, I feel most certain that we'll make it much much better.--Yannismarou 20:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. What a μαλακία nomination. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 05:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, or as they say in my country, "Την μαλακίαν πολλοί ηγάπησαν, τους μαλάκες ουδείς" (many have loved wanking, but nobody loves wankers)Rastapopoulos
- Delete non english, already in el:Μαλάκας. --MaNeMeBasat 13:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep It's one of the most notable Greek words --xvvx 21:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
