Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 November 6

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 00:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary)

Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

I am not sure why this is in the main article space, but it should not be. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete no subpages in main space. Danny Lilithborne 01:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete. Even ignoring reason above, this article would be deleted in a heartbeat after actual creation. -Amarkov ^babble 01:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - poorly written article in desperate need of wikification that has received little to no attention. As is it is not encyclopedic. wtfunkymonkey 02:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above or move it to talk page of "parent" article. TTV (MyTV|PolygonZ|Green Valley) 03:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Move or Merge — regardless of its subpage status (which is policy for POV dispute i believe), it has sources. it may be relevant to its parent article, Amin_al-Husseini where it can be merged, or moved to its own space. i dont think the nom provided a reason to delete beyond its location (which is easy to fix :). JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 04:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - neglected draft. MER-C 08:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete - This is a test page. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 16:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete since there has been no reasonable attempt to merge this since it was moved to this temp page >6 months ago, I'd say there is no reason for the temp page anymore...--Isotope23 17:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I don’t know what to make of this page or what its purpose is. As it stands now it’s POV and violates article names guild lines and probably topic guide lines. Seano1 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Isotope23. Active POV disputes may use subpages under Talk or User space, but leaving them around is dangerous, and forbidden for article space. --Dhartung | Talk 23:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Deleted by User:Yanksox. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 03:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toysandtreasures

Toysandtreasures (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable web shop. --fvw* 00:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete NN. Arbusto 00:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete NN, spam --Steve 01:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete (G11) Spam for NN company.--Húsönd 01:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete vanispamcruftisement. Danny Lilithborne 01:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete per above. wtfunkymonkey 02:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete; has been tagged.--TBCΦtalk? 03:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 21:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bilal Philips

Bilal Philips (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fails WP:BIO. Author of various self-published online works. I removed the long list of articles on his personal website. His organization is also up for afd. Arbusto 23:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom. I fail to see how this individual is notable. Xdenizen 05:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete Well, he has quite a few google hits. That said I think he still falls short of being notable of being mentioned here on WP. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. -- BhaiSaab ^talk 12:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per lack of multiple non-trivial published works about this person - crz crztalk 18:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• DELETE (see below... waaaaay below) Yikes and goodness gracious!! My google search comes up with several sites identifying this man as being linked to terrorist groups and a "list of unindicted co-conspirators" of the 1993 WTC bombing. And here we have a Wikipedia article making him look so shiny and clean and →respectable?? Yikes! and again I strongly say... YIKES! There's no good faith effort to write a balanced, truthful article here. Wikipedia is not a propagnada machine for terrorist organizations. We must delete this until someone can verify all the hubub about his terrorist leanings or at least where all that talk is coming from. We cant ignore it. I won't buy an excuse that "it's just a smear campaign from prejudiced people who are his enemies." Where there's smoke... It would be good for people to see that these are where the man's sympathies and associations lie in a well researched article on Wikipedia, but this by no means is the beginnings of such an article. There is no excuse for this article. Wipe it completely clean until someone can write a responsible article. OfficeGirl 18:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

AFD is not the place to deal with accuracy disputes. Seano1 21:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Suspicions of accuracy problems are an appropriate thing to bring up in AfD. Some users seem to think that the only thing to discuss in AfD is "notability." Instead of just going along with what the nom and others concluded from the text of the article, I added information that I found. I think this man may well prove to have a degree of notability if indeed he is associated with the 1993 WTC bombing conspiracy in reliable news sources but there are other considerations. My objections fall under the catergory of WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOT. If these problems cannot be cleared up in a responsible way before the end of the discussion period for this AfD then the article is due to be deleted. But as to notability in the article as written there was not a sufficient assertion made. OfficeGirl 22:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Then go in there and Edit Boldly.while observing WP:BLP policies. Edison 19:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• User:141.158.234.96 wrote the following in the articles talk page.: Dear Wikipedia: It would be ridiculous to delete this article. Bilal Philips is a major figure of English-language Salafi Islam, which has a worldwide reach. While his name may not be known outside of the Muslim community, he is quite well-known within that community. The existing article neither mentions his several influential publications, nor his political views and role in Salafi Islam. He is controversial especially among Salafis because he belongs to one of the splintered Salafi groupings so that others attack him as a "deviant." In fact, it appears that sometime between 1991 and 1994, he was either expelled from Saudi Arabia or had his visa not renewed, so that he had to migrate to the UAE. When I am able, I will try to fix his article here, but I want to write this right now so no one deletes him. I also want to add that in general Wikipedia is poor on Islamic topics and personages. Hardly any of the famous shaykhs of the past are noticed, and many modern personages are overlooked. This is quite apart from the poor quality of many articles that omit salient facts in the subjects lives or are too one sided. Thus, to go around looking for Muslim personages to delete is not the way to go if one wants to claim universal coverage for Wikipedia.

Keep Being a good person is not a qualification for getting an article on Wikipedia; the fact that he is associated with the 1993 bombing so strongly seems to indicate notability. The article needs an NPOV rewrite, removal of all unsourced and POV statements. But the fact that he is a noted terrorist is NOT a reason for deletion. If he were a non-notable terrorist that would be one thing; to claim in the same breath that he is notable and then deletable is contradictory. This is a content dispute and should be carried on on the articles talk page. Be bold, fix the article to be NPOV. It doesn't need to be deleted. --Jayron32 05:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

QueryJayron, has anyone gotten hold of a single good reference source about this man? I am not sure we are in a position to say that its been established as a fact that he was connected with the 1993 WTC bombing. I absolutely agree with you that if we have that as a fact then notability has been established. But if all we get is some kind of fansite content then the article would be due to be deleted. I am very much in favor of expanding the information available on Wikipedia concerning Muslim personages and topics related to Islam, as long as the articles are done responsibly. Since there's a real possibility that Bilal Philips has been involved in such serious matters I think his topic should be handled with special care. I also don't want the article to say he is a terrorist without at least one reliable news source to back it up, since we are dealing with a very damning statement about a living person. OfficeGirl 18:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Independently of any judgement of a person's goodness or badness, there must be documented notability to have an article. No independent verifiable mainstream press coverage is presented in the article, and I could find no mention of "Bilal Philips"" in a 4000 publication database. Blogs and websites are not good sources to establish notability. Edison 19:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep notable convert, scholar and controversy, specialy all in one. --Striver 02:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - Is this a joke? Bilal Philips is a widely recognised and leading Islamic and comparative religion author in the English language and has appeared on regularly on at least one TV channel that I know of in the UK. He has fourteen books available on Amazon [1] and thirty-six overall according to one website [2] and not forgetting the multiple articles available on his website and others. His book The Fundamentals of Tawheed is one of the best on the subject and features in the University of South California Compendium of Muslim Texts [3]. A google search for "bilal philips" brings up over 48000 results. He appears in this list of famous muslim scholars [4] and was interviewed by the Saudi Gazette in the article. Admittedly, the article is a bit bare but deletion would be the loss of an important or potentially important biography to wiki. Wikipidian 03:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipidian, maybe you can solve this whole discussion for us with your knowledge of sources and where to find them. Do you think that you could locate some articles about this man from good reliable sources? I am inclined to believe that they are out there, but I wouldn't know where to look. Surely he has been reported about in the news somewhere. Maybe there's something in an Arab newspaper from the time he was allegedly turned away from Saudi Arabia and emigrated to UAE in the early nineties, as was suggested on the article's talk page. Maybe there's an article about his alleged connection to the people who did the 1993 WTC attack. Maybe there's an article profiling his regular television appearances and public reaction to his statements in the BBC. If he's "widely recognised", then all we need is to present the evidence that he is indeed being recognised. I'll need to see something a bit stronger and more lasting than famousmuslims.com, but truly, I can be persuaded. I've changed my position on AfD's several times when an editor has come up with some good evidence. I'm open minded. Show me. OfficeGirl 19:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Ok, I think you have set the bar a bit too high for notability - at least according to wiki guidelines (please refer here [5]). His 36-odd books (14 on amazon), multiple articles, website content and his notable book The Fundamentals of Tawheed in my opinion easily pass him on "The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field" criteria. He also passes Wikipedia:Search engine test.

  But in answer to your specific questions:

  (1) I know of NO CONNECTION with Bilal Philips and terrorism and would be literally astonished of any proven link. The co-conspirators WTC thing, would be slander against a living person as more than likely the claim wouldn't be verfiable.

  (2)He appears regularly on Peace TV (available in 125 countries) [6], regularly on Itihad TV UK (no source but you gonna have to trust me that I've seen him on here) and only occasionally on Islam channel (which again has global availability) but is due to appear in the Global Peace and Unity Event organised by the channel and broadcast worldwide [7][8]. Also apparently has been on Sharjah TV [9]

  (3)I don't know if he's been seen on BBC/CNN etc but here's something from a Qatar-based paper [10] and interview with IslamOnline (the web's most popular Islamic website) [11] in addition to the Saudi Gazette interview from famousmuslims.

  Basically, he's widely known for his contribution to english language Islamic literature and his television appearances and the most likely reason why he hasn't appeared in the secular media so often is because he's not the hook-for-a-hand controversial imam the media like to splash on our screens. Wikipidian 00:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Okay, you got my vote with the Qatar paper and the IslamOnline profile. He's definitely a scholar, and he's notable enough with good evidence. I'm terribly curious where the other talk (WTC conspiracy) is coming from, and if can be tracked down, hoax or no, it would be a good thing to explain in the article what that's all about. After all, Cat Stevens has trouble getting into some countries for running his mouth and not controlling his anger, but he's not likely to bomb anything (is he?). Anyway, Keep, but clean up. OfficeGirl 02:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Wikipidian. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per user Wikipedian. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 01:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keeep per Wikipidian. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 08:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. As per Wikipedian. --Marwatt 19:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zakir Naik

Zakir Naik (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable person. Fails WP:BIO, at first glance he appears to be notable, but its just a list of his beliefs. As someone noted on my talk, "He's not any better known than other Islamic public speakers, it's just that the article has been the scene of frantic revert wars between those who find him hilarious". [12] Arbusto 23:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete As per nom. Tarret 01:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep 132,000 Ghits seems quite prolific and well-known Raffles mk 03:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep From the Google results as well as the fact that he has his own set of notable critics, Zakir Naik appears notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article. -- tariqabjotu 03:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Meets my idea of notable due to the number of Google hits and some of the text I read on some of those pages. Better references are needed, though. The links in the "Critics" section lead to either forum messages or articles that don't talk about Zakir Naik at all. Those links alone wouldn't convince me that he has any notable critics. SWAdair 04:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:BIO criteria, number of Google hits makes him notable, sources need to be cited though. We should use reliable sources for the article as SWAdair pointed out. Article needs some cleanup though. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The very idea of "reliable" source becomes controversial in cases like this one, however the guy appears well-known in Islamic circles, as well as being widely criticised. Stammer 07:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep He's not very well known in the West, but he seems to have a following in India. If we keep articles on people like Maurice Bucaille and Ahmed Deedat -- who are preaching the same message about the rationality of Islam -- then we need to keep this one. But it IS an accident that he got more attention than the other fellows. Send the mockers to the other articles, that will expand them handily. Zora 08:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep He's very well known in South Asia and Muslim communities abroad. BhaiSaab ^talk 12:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. -- BhaiSaab ^talk 12:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep This dude just barely makes it across the notability threshhold for me. My biggest problem with the article is that it needs to be cleaned up for POV (in both directions-- pro and anti) and the lengthiness of it is unjustified. There's no reason to have such a long list of his beliefs. Let's prune this thing down, please. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. OfficeGirl 18:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but with a complete revision. He is a very notable, if not the most notable, South-Asian public speaker on Islam. Admittedly the articles is amongst the poorest I've come across on wikipedia- Sources on both sides are dubious to say the least! I still don't see how some random guy on some forum qualifies as a "critic" in the encyclopedic sense...--khello 23:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep He is notable in some world regions(for example in Indonesia where I live in) --Nielswik_(talk) 15:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep - What! This is a bigger joke than putting the Bilal Philips up for deletion. I'm not even going to bother with giving reasons for notability this time as it's self evident from reading the article. Wikipidian 03:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep - Must keep, he is very famous among Muslims in the UK.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.255.83.10 (talk • contribs) .
• Keep - Naik is a household name in millions of Muslim homes. There are millions of people who admire him as one of the greatest preachers on earth. Would you delete the entry for, say, Billy Graham ?
• The problem with unreliable sources stems from the fact that few mainstream, high-brow scholars have dealt with Naik. So, the material on him mostly comes from web forums, sites and blogs etc. I agree however that it's absurd simply to list his beliefs. The article should be pruned.Not that the Bucaille article is much different.giordaanoGiordaano 23:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above commenters. Yamaguchi先生 05:58, 9 November 2006
• Strong keep - Must keep, he is very famos everywhere. And he is really doing very good and really great things not only for Muslims but for the humanity.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 41.209.122.53 (talk • contribs) .
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Research Foundation

Islamic Research Foundation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable group. No independent sources. Started by a person who also started an article on the groups founder. Also up for afd. Arbusto 23:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - lifts two whole paragraphs from [13]. MER-C 10:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - but delete copyvio. BhaiSaab ^talk 12:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. -- BhaiSaab ^talk 12:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep with severe warning about finding verifiable independent sources per guidlines. tho i agree it looks suss, i believe nominator is being heavy handed: correctly flags {{notablility}} then the very next day puts it on AfD. this is hardly fair, cld be grounds for speeding this process? → bsnowball 14:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Zakir Naik. There's no justification for a separate article on this man's foundation. The only claim to notability that the foundation can make is the work by Zakir Naik. A brief and tasteful article about him that mentions the foundation is all that is needed. Oh, yes, and in addition to the copyright issues, this article is a POV disaster. All the more reason to tighten things up and merge into one article. OfficeGirl 18:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but edit it to remove copyvio--Nielswik_(talk) 15:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above commenters after removal of any copyvio. Yamaguchi先生 05:58, 9 November 2006
• Keep as long as copyvio is removed.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete per WP:V and WP:CORP. --Coredesat 00:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flamel College

Flamel College (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable, unaccredited private school. Lacks independent sources. Do students actually attend? If so, how many? There are only two sources of trivial mention, which fails WP:CORP. No google news hits. One mention is "Determined to apply academic rigor to his pursuit, Mr. Villella took several online courses from Flamel College, which keeps a post office box in Sacramento ..."[14] WP:CORP is clear and this fails criteria. Arbusto 23:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. --Dennisthe2 02:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Indeed. --humblefool® 03:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Many google hits and enough people claiming certificates from the school to make it worth keeping. In particular, author Dennis Hauck [15] prominently claims to be an instructer there [16]. Further verifiable through references from the New York Times and other sources (which this nom has sought to remove [17]). I think we should document as many of these types of schools as we can, expanding our coverage beyond the bare bones List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning that wikipedia carefully maintains (as per the list guideline, which mandates articles for list components). An alternative would be to merge info into the list, but there is probably enough meat to maintain a separate article. --JJay 03:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Conspiracy people claiming "certificates" from a PO Box is not a criteria for inclusion. There is not enough independent, RS sources for an article on this unaccredited school. WP:CORP is the criteria, and you have included trival sources that mention this in passing (read WP:CORP #1 to see why this fails). You have trivial mentions and no article that actually discusses this school. The NY Times (I linked above, but you omitted in your reference) says in one sentence its a PO Box and that's it. Also as you have been told before, just because I added it to a list does not mean wikipedia must keep it. Arbusto 03:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Wp:Corp is a guideline. I consider it a stretch when applied to a school. For example, few schools are "listed on ranking indices" or have share prices "used to calculate stock market indices". Few schools have share prices full stop. However, the Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) guideline does state that: Ideally each entry on the list should have a Wikipedia article but this is not required if it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future. [18]. I consider that further justification for keeping articles of this type. Otherwise, my reasons for wanting to maintain the article are explained above. --JJay 03:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You are saying we should keep this because I added it to the unaccredited list? Arbusto 03:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Read my first comment for numerous reasons why this article should be kept (and expanded). --JJay 03:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No response with substance? Arbusto 03:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. To clarify, this is a bunch of woowoos I've heard of before, but even given that I was unable to find multiple independent non-trivial sources online or any other indication of notability. Which is too bad really, because I'd actually like to keep this one... I think its kinduv funny. JoshuaZ 05:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Xdenizen 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Don't see why an unaccredited school needs an article on Wikipedia, no assertion of notability. IMO, this school sounds like some half-past six school. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per JJay. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment A) What makes you think that users will do so? B) Since when was that an inclusion criterion? JoshuaZ 06:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - Considering that this is an unaccredited college, perhaps wp:corp should be used for consideration, contra to an above comment. --Dennisthe2 01:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marcus1234 (talk • contribs) 11:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per JJay, it is more than reasonable that readers will turn to Wikipedia for this information. Yamaguchi先生 06:00, 9 November 2006
• Keep JJay makes a strong argument.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Please. This is a "school" that gives degrees in ghost hunting. Did you even review the article? Arbusto 03:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Its about as useful in the real world as a college giving a degree in Turfgrass Management (Ohio State), Poultry Science (Univ of MD), or video gaming.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 05:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, those are all large industries (and Poultry Science is to be blunt necessary for the standard of living in most developed nations). Ghost hunting on the other hand...(note, I don't think this actually has much to do with notability anyways, but its worth noting). JoshuaZ 06:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Please assume good faith that those who have commented have reviewed the article. This is a unique and interesting school, with verifiable coverage (i.e. New York Times) that without a doubt should be included on a project aiming to provide the complete sum of human knowledge. Silensor 05:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Verifable? The NY Times' trival mention is posted at the start of this nom says it based from a PO Box. Explain how it meets WP:CORP. Also unique isn't a criteria for inclusion. Arbusto 08:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete no evidence that this is an institution with any academic standing, and after an admittedl brief check I can't verify any of the article from reliable independent secondary sources. Guy 00:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• What exactly is the basis for that statement? I provided three references when I addded material to the article including the NY Times. They are all reliable, independent and secondary. --JJay 00:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The article I linked from the NY times at the top and is cited in the article simply states it is a PO Box. That is also on its webpage. Hardly passes any WP:V of a study body, history, etc. Arbusto 00:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Fails WP:V miserably. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. I find it rather disturbing that so many established editors think the number of google hits should be the primary reason we include an article, but whatever. Based on the numbers there is no consensus to delete, thankfully arguments other than the google hits were presented, and per JJay's argument and evidence there does seem to be reliable information written about this topic. I suggest actually citing it in the article, which is about 0.02% as long as this AfD. W.marsh 23:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newport University (California)

Newport University (California) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable, unaccredited private school. Lacks independent sources. Do students actually attend? If so, how many? Created by Drsalleh (talk • contribs), who's only made 3 article edits. Approved by California's consumer department (NOT education), thus must pass WP:CORP. Possible diploma mill.[19] Arbusto 23:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. --Dennisthe2 02:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per well summarized nomination. JoshuaZ 03:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. Do not mismatch stub with delete candidate. Tulkolahten 16:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Accredited or not, this school brings in over 385,000 relevant Google hits. What are the requirements for obtaining an .edu domain name, does anyone know? Silensor 23:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It depends very much how and when you got it. I know someone who technically owns Miskatonic.edu (see Miskatonic University). My impression is that it has gotten harder in the last few years. JoshuaZ 00:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see relevant hits. Wikipedia and mirrors, and the Chronicle for Higher Education talks about "Christopher Newport University." Arbusto 22:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Unaccredited colleges should not have articles. They are nothing more than non-notable corporations. --- RockMFR 04:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Silensor. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Silensor, it seems to have gained some notoriety. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

How does it pass WP:CORP? How many students attend? Does it have a campus? The only place that knows of this is a divison of California Department of Consumer Affairs NOT any academic accreditor nor the Department of Education. Arbusto 02:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a school. Just because it is a private company does not mean it is not a school. Unacredited is not the same a not notable. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Schools which are unaccredited are in many ways only schools in so far as they claim to be schools. It isn't clear to me why they shouldn't be treated a corporations. JoshuaZ 03:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Acreddited simply means officially recognized. While unaccredited may mean it is not notable, it really only means it is not officially recognized, by whatever officials happen to be in charge of accrediting, not that it is neccesarily not notable. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that unaccredited doens't mean not-notable. Bob Jones University is an obvious counterexample. However, it does make it reasonable to apply WP:CORP. This university seems to fail it. JoshuaZ 03:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

An article does not need to meet every notability requirement it may fall under, only one(unless I am wrong). My stance is that while it may be a CORP, it is still a SCHOOL, and if it meets one of them, as opposed to all of them, it is fine. Yes, it is a CORP, but it is still a SCHOOL. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but we have a consensus about corporations. We have no consensus abotu schools. So it maybe makes sense to differ to the one we have an actual consensus on? JoshuaZ 03:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think so, because that consensus was not neccesarily made with schools in mind. To be frank, it seems like a bit of a stretch to apply CORP to a school simply because it is not accredited. After all, acredited schools can be private corperations aswell, I don't see the connection. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This place is for-profit, see policies on WP:CORP. And thus, is much different a public high school. It lacks sources and notability. Arbusto 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep Article needs to be expanded. We seem to have an arbitrary distinction between accredited and unaccredited schools that seems to have no factual basis in any Wikipedia policy or guideline. Newport U. would seem to be no different from any other non-public university or school. Alansohn 05:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

A public institution must have accreditation implies notability. Unaccredited schools like Bob Jones University have established notability with the number of students and articles, etc. Do have nothing like that here? Any articles for notability? Any statistics IF ANYONE ATTENDS? Arbusto 22:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, concur with nomination. Nothing here suggesting notability. It apparently exists, is located in Newport, and is unaccredited. Wikipedia is not a directory. —ptk✰fgs 06:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per Silensor. --ManiF 07:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: This place is "for profit" in this link that comes up as the top ten ghits supplied by Silensor. Can anyone explain how this meets WP:CORP. Arbusto 22:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said before, it is still a school, even if they make profit. Most major schools profit. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No, most private schools are non-profit (all public are non-profit by definition), which gives them different tax stuctures and incentives. Moreover, its an unaccredited school that we can't verfiy academics nor do we have any WP:RS to write an article with. Please supply some WP:RS if you wish to expand this instead of keeping it as a two sentence stub. You can't even answer my basic question: HOW MNY STUDENTS CLAIM TO ATTEND? Arbusto 02:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Silensor. Notable Google hit count and commenters above suggest that our readers will look to Wikipedia for neutral coverage of this educational institution regardless of its accreditations or lack thereof. Yamaguchi先生 06:04, 9 November 2006

What are some of these links that cover this subject? Post them here. We have NOTHING to write an article with. Arbusto 06:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Silensor, there is significant Google coverage here... I think a strong argument can therefore be made regarding its notability.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You "think an argument can be made"? Of that ghit count what are some WP:RS we can write an article with? I see forums, ads, and a bunch of other places with the "Newport University" not tied to this. Also how does this meet WP:CORP? Arbusto 06:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment for all those "per Silensor" keeps: most of the Google hits returned are not about the Newport University on Newport Beach at all, but about the Cristopher Newport University. When you search for "NEwport University" California -"Christopher Newport", you already drop to 13,500 Ghits[20]. Many of those are still false positives, but you get the idea. As for the number of students: they seem to have had a grand total of 8 graduates in 1993[21], and are not listed in the COOL database[22]. As far as I can see, it is an unaccredited correspondence law school with some 10 to 15 students each year[23]. Since OCtober 2004, only two first years students passed the "Baby Bar"[24]. Apart from their own website and such statistics which prove existence (although with a very limited number of correspondence students), I am unable to find any reviews, discussions, or other WP:V sources to show any notability. Fram 11:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per my above comment and per nom. Fram 11:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete, but this is because of concerns over sources that indicate notability. --SunStar Net 11:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. First, the school is registered with California for the bar exam [25]. It is also my understanding that Newport students can take the California licensing exam in clinical psychology and family counseling. Second, there are reliable sources available for the school, for example the Salt Lake Tribune did an extremely long expose in 1996 when it registered in Utah (pay site) [26]. Third, whatever you may think of these types of schools, people are getting degrees from Newport and sometimes working in positions of authority. That can cause controversy. Stanley Blondek, an expert witness and California prison youth counselor who claimed a masters and PhD from Newport (but repeatedly failed the California licensing exam) is an example (pay site) [27]. Fourth, Wikipedia is meant to be a comprehensive reference work. We should be doing articles on all schools, accredited and unaccredited. Our List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning is a very limited start but provides no real information and is unsourced (but does include Newport). We need articles on the underlying institutions. --JJay 23:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

1) Registered with the bar examin means what? According to that page, "The Office of Admissions [of the bar] cannot advise prospective students on the advantages or disadvantages of attending unaccredited schools or the quality of the legal education programs provided by the schools." So your link means the bar has heard of this place before, but it doesn't know if its reilable.

• You seem not particularly well informed of the requirements for admission to the bar in the state of California. Schools must fully adhere to bar exam rule XIX related to law study in unaccredited shools [28]. This requires state licensing, inspection, a qualified faculty, classroom study, library, etc. The requirements are not easy to meet. --JJay 12:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Review [29] and feel free to provide [WP:RS]] for each criteria. Arbusto 00:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What??? California sets standards for allowing students from various institutions to sit for the bar exam and in the case of unaccredited schools, bar exam rule XIX is applicable (as indicated in my previous post). It is not up to me to "provide WP:RS for each criteria". The school is listed on the California bar exam website, meaning they have passed inspection and adhere to the clauses of rule XIX. Pretty simple really. If you believe that is not the case please enlighten us. --JJay 01:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, people can walk in and take the test. Does American Bar Association accredit law schools: YES. Does Newport have accreditation: NO. Has this been called a diploma mill: YES. Can the California Bar Association say this provides an good/quality education: NO. Does this place meet the standards for the California Bar Accreditation[30]: NO. Does California of Bar Examiners approve or accredit correspondence schools: NO.[31] Have you given any reason why this for-profit place meets WP:CORP: NO. Arbusto 04:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No one claimed the school is accredited. That is not at issue. Your statement that "people can walk in and take the test" is false. The school has to be inspected and must adhere to a series of requirements. That is why few schools are on the list. Your comment that the school has been called a "diploma mill" is completely unproven. Provide proof of that statement. The California Bar's non-opinion of unaccredited schools is not the issue here either. Finally, WP/Corp is a guideline that should not apply to schools for obvious reasons. The interest of these types of articles is to have background information on institutions of higher learning that are awarding degrees to people that sometimes achieve positions of authority (in this case potential lawyers, social workers, psychologists). That is inherently notable and supercedes WP/Corp and its fixation on stock prices. --JJay 13:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

We have two sources that question its academics, and no one disputes its for-profit nature. 1) Here. 2) In an article in South China Morning Post Stella Lee's article "Overseas university under investigation in Hong Kong" states "The Newport University of California which is not accredited by the American education authorities, started offering courses ... through distance learning courses." This was in relation to Newport's "classes" which "are not in the form of instruction, we just ask the students to raise their questions and discuss them with experts." This again is a trival mention in the paper, but leads use to question Newport's seriousness as a "school"

You still haven't offered any sources as to how this business meets WP:CORP. Arbusto 02:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You cearly haven't read the first source, which never calls the school a diploma mill. Nor does the second source, apparently. The only person making that claim is you, but without proof. If you question Newport's "seriousness" take it up with the Bar association of California. --JJay 19:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

2) Your insisting we keep an article for a ten year old Salt Lake newspaper that calls this place a diploma mill is more of a reason to delete. That is, no one has provided any criticism in the article about its ppor quality of instruction. Thus, your link makes us more skeptical about the article meeting WP:V. The article says nothing about criticism, which is very misleading per your one article. Readers, right now, get the false impression that is place's academics aren't questionable per the one source you mentioned.

3) Lastly, as you have been told just because I added this to the List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning doesn't mean we keep it. We kept WP:V and notable unaccredited schools. One article from ten years ago does not prove notablity. Arbusto 03:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

1) While the school is not accredited, the fact that several state bodies do provide some level of recognition to the school is not only evidence of verifiability, it also goes a long way to establishing notability in the context of a university. 2) The source is independent, reliable and verifiable. There is simply no criteria that the source must be recent OR that it must be positive. "Non-trivial coverage" is timeless. As the source is provided, readers can make their own impression of the article's characterization. 3) A reminder that a school's presence on the List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning doesn't mean it should be deleted. 4) The time has come to address the evidence of notability and get past the fact that it is unaccredited. There is simply no standard whatsoever that makes an accredited school notable OR makes an unaccredited school a non-notable target for deletion. Alansohn 04:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

1) Its on a list for california's consumer division with 1800 of other unaccrediteds; hardly notable. Review WP:CORP. 2) You have one article from ten years ago. Review WP:CORP. 3) Yes. No one said otherwise. 4) Yes, notability is important. How does it pass WP:CORP? Arbusto 04:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per the arguments and research provided by Fram. 10-15 graduates per year is insufficient justification for an article. -Kubigula (ave) 05:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Note to closing admin. no user who voted to retain this has provided evidence of it passing WP:CORP. According to this "university's" website ten to fifteen people "graduate" this place a year. We have no independent or verifable statistics or facts about anything. This has serious WP:V issues. Arbusto 00:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry but that is false. There is no information regarding student numbers on the school's website. The link provided by User:Fram shows eight law school graduates in 1993 and is from a California education site. The school also has numerous other programs. Finally, WP:Corp is a guideline. It is entirely debateable whether it should apply to a school. And numerous valid reasons have been given for keeping the article. Regarding WP:V, as indicated above, sources exist that confirm the school, its programs and that students are eligible to sit for the bar. There are no WP:V issues, serious or otherwise, with the basic facts of the article.--JJay 00:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

1) This is for-profit.[32] How does it meet WP:CORP?

2) It is NOT accredited by the California bar as I noted above. Allowing people to take a test is different than accreditation.

3) According to the org. you are citing "The Office of Admissions [of the bar] cannot advise prospective students on the advantages or disadvantages of attending unaccredited schools or the quality of the legal education programs provided by the schools."

4)[33] One source describes "Newport" as " A couple of clunker cars sit in the driveway of a 40-year-old brick house, which sits squarely in a commercial zone: a hardware store in back, an equipment-rental company in front and a McDonald's expanding up the street. The back yard has an old cedar fence, a rusting clothesline and an overgrown shade tree. Inside the house, a secondhand desk, some office chairs, bookshelves and a pair of torch lamps are assembled in the living room. Welcome to Newport..." Also note the title of the article.

5) Hence serious WP:V issues. Arbusto 00:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep It doesn't matter whether the school is accredited or not. It exists and someone cared enough to write an article about it, therefore is worthy of an article. If it is a diploma mill, put this in the article. Actually, articles on diploma mills would be an excellent public service, since it would out them as such to any potential student who doesn't realise what the institution is. If it is a diploma mill, that makes it more notable than if it were just a small, unaccredited college. *jb 23:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back to wikipedia. However, you failed to offer sources for WP:V. Can we properly assert it is a university or a for-profit diploma mill? No one has offer evidence for either. Thus, academics aside this is for-profit. How does it meet WP:CORP? Do we have enough sources to write a NPOV article about this business? I don't think so. Arbusto 02:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete — No verification on university's "status" - delete per the WP:V issues mentioned above. –- kungming·2 | ^(Talk·^Contact) 03:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as we're apparently unable to independently verify the noteability of this institution. It should not be deleted merely because it is unaccredited but that does it make it much more difficult to establish noteability as it's not listed in IPEDS. --ElKevbo 05:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, and per nom's convincing rebuttals to all counterarguments raised. Also, Delete because no schools are notable! :) Xtifr _tälk 11:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - it seems as though everything wrong with this article is that it's incomplete. So why are we here yapping about it? ST47Talk 12:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That's the point if we can't find WP:RS and WP:V then we don't have enough to write an accurate article. And inaccurate articles should get deleted. Arbusto 20:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete per Fram and WP:V. I believe this one is noteworthy, but that's no good if we can't verify through independent sources, and it seems as if we can't. Shimeru 23:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was flagged as copyvio from [34]. MER-C 10:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC) ... and deleted as empty and unexpandable due to verifiability issues. Guy 10:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Online University

Islamic Online University (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable, unaccredited "school." Anyone even attend this place? Anyone even know what city this place claims to be in? Fails WP:CORP. Arbusto 23:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination
• Delete per WP:ADS, WP:WEB, and WP:CORP. Couldn't find anything about the site on Alexa.--TBCΦtalk? 02:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete TBC edit conflicted to say essentially what I was going to say. To expand slightly, using either WP:WEB or WP:CORP this institution is non-notable. JoshuaZ 05:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:WEB, WP:CORP, not a notable online university. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete, per WP:V - material that doesn't meet it shouldn't be in one article or another. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Turkel

Robert Turkel (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

A webmaster of a online "ministry" and author of one self-published book. Arbusto 23:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge to Tekton Apologetics Ministries which is currently a redirect to Turkel. The ministry meets WP:WEB. JoshuaZ 05:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Wouldn't this be a "Move" instead? Caknuck 05:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, technically yes. The point in calling it a merge was that the article should primarily be about the ministry with the merged material being, well merged material. JoshuaZ 00:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:V. While I am unfamiliar with the Christian apologetics movement, it seems clear that the article doesn't meet WP:V. The only sources sited are either Web sites belonging to the subject or his critics. What we need is a few neutral, unbiased sources to establish notability. As of now, the article fails to assert that subject and the ministry are adequately notable. Caknuck 05:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete How does the ministry meet WP:Web? What are all the non-trivial sources? How is it an independent web site? If someone can improve the article, and make it obvious why this is notable, I have no problem with it staying. If not, delete it and the ministry entry. I don't see anyone writing scholarly pieces about Turkel or the Ministry, but again, absence of proof is not proof of absence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phyesalis (talk • contribs).
• Keep or at least Merge to Tekton Apologetics Ministries. Holding is clearly very well known to both Christians and antitheists. 58.162.2.122 08:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep - There was RECENTLY a vote on this whole matter and the vote was to keep. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/JP_Holding

Also: 1) The leading atheist website www.infidels.org lists 40 Christian apologists and JP Holding is listed among them (see: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.html)

2) Next, well known Christians have spoken favorably of his ministry (if memory serves Hank Hanegraaff" The Bible answer man" on the radio spoke well of Holding for example). Here is a link to one of Holdings articles at his website: When apologetics was evangelism by JP Holding

3) Many well known atheists disparage Holding and these atheists are listed among Wikipedia subject headings. What better recommendation of your relevance can you get than the public disparagement of those who oppose your viewpoint!

I cite:

G.A. Wells (see: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g_a_wells/holding.html )

Farrell Till (see: http://www.theskepticalreview.com/jftill/turkey.html )

Holding returns the disparagement here:

G.A. Wells http://www.tektonics.org/TK-W.html

Farrell Till http://www.tektonics.org/TK-T.html

4) Even the www.infidels.org website has mentioned Holding in rather favorable terms.

I cite:

"Updated the author page of Kyle J. Gerkin with an added link to the "Scholarly Diplomacy Series." (Off Site)

Kyle J. Gerkin and J.P. Holding amicably engage each other in an and ongoing discussion of their differing worldviews. The goal is to tear down the wall of antipathy that too often divides Christians and skeptics, so as to foster a respectful understanding of those differences."

taken from: http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/new/2003/may2003.shtml

5) Holding's website gets a lot off traffic and his articles often get high rankings on the search engines as many people link to them.

6) Holding has been published.

7) I know that many evangelical ministers are aware of Holding. I spoke to one last month and he is aware of Holding. ken 16:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo

• • Comment first of all, if over a year ago is "recently" then yes, there was a "recent" vote on this. Second of all, due to full disclosure provisions, I will note that ken created this article, and is the main contributor.--Andrew c 16:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I also want to note that the nominator, possibly after people suggested a merge, did an out of process blanking and redirect of Tekton Apologetics Ministries. Sorry, you can't bypass AfD by redirecting articles (if that was the intent). --Andrew c 16:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Andrew, you mean Ken, not the nominator (me). It was he who redirected it. Arbusto 03:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• • • Additional comment. A correction to Andrew's post. I did create the article but about half the article was created by other Wikipedians by their additions to the article because JP Holding is well known among many atheist apologists and Christian apologists. ken 16:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
      • I apologize if I mischaracterized ken. I just wanted to make sure AfD Wikietiquette was being applied (regarding Please disclose whether you are an article's primary author or if you otherwise have a vested interest in the article.).--Andrew c 16:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per JoshuaZ. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Impressive Guy. Well referenced and presented. nascarfan1 18:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
  • User's first edit. Also note that the user account is User:Nascarfan1 while the user page is at User:NASCARfan1. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 00:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: How does this meet WP:WEB (for the merge people) and how does this meet WP:BIO for the keep people? So we have 3 votes for k two are new users and one is the original author. I should have speedied this as it doesn't assert notability. Arbusto 03:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — If you ask me, this article fails WP:V, and the entire article seems to exist in order to promote JP Holding - not to present it in an encyclopedic manner. –- kungming·2 | ^(Talk·^Contact) 04:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. This guy is only notable inside his own head. Laurence Boyce 18:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Insufficient reliable and verifiable third party mainstream references presented to establish notability. Edison 05:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 23:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International Academy of Science

International Academy of Science (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

No independent sources and no claims of notability. Vague description of what it is does not directly assert is goals or importance. Arbusto 23:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and improve. Look at the list of founding members. Anything founded by them and chaired until the end of his life by Linus Pauling is clearly notable. --Bduke 00:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Unaccredited school [35]. No verifiable evidence that pauling had anything to do with it (according to the IAS's homepage it was founded by Roger Billings in 1985, so Pauling could not have founded it in 1980). Has a snazzy name, though. --Charlene 01:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment This vote should be reconsidered, as it is clearly not related to a school, a subject that several individuals seem to confuse, including the nominator. If this vote is not recast based on the fact that it is an organization, it should be ignored by the closing administrator. Alansohn 10:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

*Delete per Charlene and nom. JoshuaZ 05:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Changing to keep per new info presuming that the claims can be sourced. JoshuaZ 01:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above, advertising. Sandstein 06:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Keep after the confusion with the school has been cleaned up. Sandstein 05:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Khoikhoi 06:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no assertion of notability. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Take a look at History of IAS. I think you are confusing two quite different things - an unaccredited school and an International Professional Society. That link is off the one on this article and it is presumably where the author of the article (not me) got the information about Pauling. Or are you all saying this web site is a fraud? --Bduke 07:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • To clarify further. The school web site is here. It is mentioned above but not given. It is even more confusing. There is also International Academy of Sciences. Note the plural "Sciences". And then there is World Academy of Science. We are discussing [36]. --Bduke 22:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment If so, we should probably have an article about the legitimate IAS here with a one-line note about the school. JoshuaZ 07:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It's a notable NGO, with numerous Nobel laureates as members. It's a big deal. The problem here is the confusion between the NGO and the small unaccredited school in Missouri. COGDEN 09:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per COGDEN, to delete this would be a mistake. Silensor 23:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment It needs cleaned up and sourced to be kept. Arbusto 01:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm deeply uneasy about this one. There seem to be a lot of these obscure institutions claiming large numbers of Nobel laureates as members, and all claiming to be terribly important and prestigious, but curiously they run out of PO boxes in places like Eichstaett or Huddersfield. Looks to me more like self-aggrandisement than anything else. Weak delete, though I could be persuaded otherwise. WMMartin 14:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This organization is not one of them. This is one of those organizations that Nobel laureates put on their resume. See, for example, [37], [38], and [39]. The problem is, the Missouri organization has not actively discouraged people from confusing the two organizations. See this site from the Missouri organization, which has a big seal and a picture of Neils Bohr, and says "Current Membership: 11". O 06:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep A notable international organization. The fact that it was founded by Linus Pauling, John Kendrew, Alexander Todd, Andrei Sakharov, Konrad Lorenz and Ilya Prigogine, would have to be one of the clearest and most concise claims of notability possible. A Thursday night poker game founded by this group would probably be notable. Cleanup to explain that the other organizations are NOT affiliated with this one, would go a long way to clearing up confusion for potential readers of this article and for this who have voted to delete based on an incorrect understanding of what this organization is. Alansohn 05:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide WP:RS. Arbusto 22:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I am almost certain we already deleted this once under another title. I seem to recall that the claims are all down to letters form the illustrious supporting the idea (but not actually doing or promising anything), and the balance turned out to be unverifiable. Guy 00:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I recall something too, but I recall it being an article on the unaccredited school. However I can not find it. --Bduke 00:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That's correct. There was an article about the Missouri organization, now deleted. COGDEN 06:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

For reference: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/International Academy of Science (Independence, Missouri). Arbusto 07:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The IAS is certainly notable, and it looks like the school confusion has been cleaned up in the article. ~ BigrTex 01:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually no major edits have been made since I opened this afd. Arbusto 07:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering that Arbusto/oo created the original AfD for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/International Academy of Science (Independence, Missouri), the fact that he still believes this article to be for a school is baffling. IT'S NOT A SCHOOL! It's an organization that was founded by several world-renowned scientists, including the odd Nobel Prize-winner or two, and BigrTex is trying to point out that you either seem to be terribly confused or just plain vindictive that an organization with a similar name exists to an article you had earlier deleted. Stating in your excuse for nomination that it makes "no claims of notability" and "does not directly assert is goals or importance" is directly contradicted by the simplest reading of the text of the article. This nomination should be withdrawn. Alansohn 07:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

1) Where did I call this a school? 2) Your bad behavior and attacks of various people is a violation of WP:CIVIL. --Arbusto 07:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Virtually every delete vote seems to believe that this is an article for a school, the usual and customary target of your attacks. You have never clarified this to any of those who have blindly followed your nomination, and your confirmation that you had deleted a school with the same name never mentions that THIS IS NOT A SCHOOL, IT'S A SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATION. The individuals who switched their votes did so upon realizing that this AfD is not for a school. While I cannot assume in this case that you are operating in bad faith, the fact that you have never clarified the nature of this AfD leaves this nomination and your motives in question. Alansohn 10:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Can't admit you were wrong. Your recent comments to new users and myself are out of line. If you can't follow WP:CIVIL then don't edit wikipedia. Arbusto 20:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbustoo, you have stood idly by allowing others to be misled into voting to delete an article on the assumption that it's a school. When are you finally going to clean up this mess and clarify that this is an article for an organization and not a school? This whole AfD is starting to appear deliberately fraudulent and just a casual mistake. Alansohn 21:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I starting to see a trend. Helical Rift 21:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Ixfd64 01:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Projectw

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Projectw (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Marked as a speedy, which was then disputed. I'm not sure, they get a reasonable number of google hits but then again that number will be hugely inflated for these kinds of sites. No vote. --fvw* 01:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes thats true but they do boast a membership of over 300,000 registered members in just about 2 years. I believe that is a large enough pool of people to permit us to make a wiki about it. It is one of the largest players in the warez scene and i have seen much smaller boards have a wiki. -Zabzu

• That assumes that they aren't lying. Or creating thousands of fake accounts, which is the same thing, really. Either way, every single source I found on google was either a primary source, a blog, a personal website, or just using their email addresses to recognize contributions. Fails WP:NOTE because of lack of multiple reliable secondary sources, thus delete. -Amarkov ^babble 01:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

hold on, can i have the admins of the site come and talk to give a reliable second source and prove he validity of all 300,000 members

here are the service stats of the board alone

Server Load: 2342 pages served in previous 5 minutes. Page generation time: 0.25508 seconds - SQL queries: 18

Our users have posted a total of 2347368 articles We have 300415 registered users The newest registered user is avrillirva In total there are 435 users online :: 354 Registered, 35 Hidden and 46 Guests [ Administrators ] [ Moderators ] [ VIP ] [ Donator ] Most users ever online was 1116 on Fri Nov 03, 2006 16:14

are you serious why to delete this page ?? ProjectW is the best !!!!!!

^ Yes, ProjectW is the shiz!

• Weak delete Though the article does seem to fail the criterias of WP:WEB, an Alexa ranking of 2,047 is quite impressive. --TBCΦtalk? 02:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • exactly, just give it a chance. The majority of the sites members are european and its the middle of the night there. Give it 12 hours so they can see the wiki and respond accordingly.

-- note that the above unsigned comment was left by user Zabzu --

• Delete per nomination. I don't hold an Alexa ranking, especially in this context, above WP:WEB. This article is non-encyclopedic, doesn't cite sources, and reads more like a poorly written review verging on masturbatory spam -- wtfunkymonkey 02:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Nothing special here; any forum that requires that users register to even view the forums is bound to have a high membership count, but that's definitely not a useful number for active posters. --humblefool® 03:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Please note that this page has been linked to, with instructions on how to post to it, on their forums. I left them a note discouraging that. --humblefool® 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

ProjectW gains over 500 new members a day. It has 2347603 articles. I have seen much smaller sites have wikis and i think you should give our a chance, the site can only grow. We have members from almost every single country in the world. As soon as the Admins get on i can access the tracker info to show you how large and well represented projectw is.

You're entirely missing the point. You must have reliable secondary sources to get an article. We don't keep articles because their subject is big, without reliable secondary sources. -Amarkov ^babble 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Secondary sources to back up the content? Warez boards are usually not officially listed as warez but i can prove that it is one of the 20 largest phpbb boards.

omg! all this discussion... ok, but to come to the point.. can we have the article or not?

here is a source, on of the 20 largest warez board, in fact projectw would be number 9 http://rankings.big-boards.com/?filter=phpBB,all&sort=members they refuse to lost Warez boards and other adult content but in fact if you sort by members ou will find projectw fits into 9th place

• OK. 9th largest warez board. We'll assume it's true.

1. Is projectw notable for that reason alone? 9th isn't all that impressive.
2. If not, is projectw more notable than any other big warez board? If so, why?

If you can't answer these questions, the article will likely be deleted. humblefool® 03:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

More important is this:

1. Are there reliable secondary sources on which to base the content?

If there aren't, the article will almost definitely be deleted. -Amarkov ^babble 03:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

i still do not understand what you mean by secondary sources. IS big-baords not a secondary source?

And no projectw is also notable for the fact that It is the largest warez forum on the internet. When people download warez they have two choices, a bittorrent client or a forum and the number one forum is Us.

Also ProjectW beats the other warez competition in the fact that we have almost double the members of our two competitors and we are affiliated wiht other large warez sites such as katz.ws

• Now wait. Are you the largest warez site, or 9th largest? You've claimed both. Also, Bigboard's rankings are based on self-reporting by the sites, which is unreliable at best. Has the site been mentioned in the media at all? Size *alone* isn't a reason to have a Wikipedia article. --humblefool® 04:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

We are the Largest Warez Board and the 9th Largest phpbb board. That clear? Also this is the most reliable way to track the size of these boards.

It. Does. Not. Matter. You. Need. Reliable. Secondary. Sources. NOTHING which mechanically gathers info is a secondary source, nor is something that just blindly uses what's been reported by the primary source. Please, read WP:NOTE and WP:V. For that matter, you really should just read all the policies and guidelines. -Amarkov ^babble 05:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete fails WP:WEB. Kavadi carrier 06:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, blindingly obvious web forum vanity. Please discount all puppets. JIP | Talk 12:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete no independent sources cited means it does not pass WP:WEB.-- danntm ^T _C 14:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete - This is one of those cases where lots of g-hits does not imply notability. Any site devoted to the Warez scene has the potential to be drastically over rated by the google test as a result of top100 lists, leech sites, mirrors, and content hosting sites. In very rare cases (such as the Pirate Bay) outside media attention makes a pirating site notable. In this case, the article reads like a teaser for the forum, and I honestly don't see how a well formatted NPOV article could say anything beyond "ProjectW is a warez community with a good number of members". -bobby 14:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Very Very Very Very Strongest and hardest delete Nothing else to say. Just delete. --SkyWalker 16:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Absolutely no reliable sources present to verify anything. If we remove everything that is unsourced or unimportant, this is what we are left with:

ProjectW is a 300,000 member strong warez community. It's currently in the top-20 largest phpBB boards on the web --Wafulz 17:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete it and protect the page - Warezcruft! Just what we needed. Fails WP:V, WP:WEB, and WP:RS. Trifecta. --Shrieking Harpy ^Talk|Count 21:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the thing delete - I don't see anyone saying that the group is not being used by the number suggested. As such it is notable whatever anyone thinks about it. The article is very badly written but that is no excuse to delete it - if people don't like the article then well and good tell the writers to improve it or make it a stub - an AfD is a decision on the name in the Wikipedia space not about the contents of the article. If the contents are bad, but the name is encylopedic then the proper action is to ask for it to be improved not to delete --Mike 16:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It is not the obligation of those in an AfD debate to prove something is not notable. It is the obligation of those seeking to keep an article to show multiple independent mainstream coverage of it. Claims of how many members there are from the website itself are not verifiable or independent. I found no mention of "Projectw" in a database of 4,000 publications, but I did find numerous articles about the persons operating such sites getting convictions for software privacy. Warez is notable, this one site is not so far. Edison 19:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

When the article makes a claim, I'm afraid the onus is on those deleting to make the case that it is a false claim (or that having requested proper citation to verify no verificaton has been produced). However, based on your own evidence of a lack in 4000 publciations, I satisfied there is clear evidence of non-notability - thanks! --Mike 20:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Because of WP:V, not to mention WP:NOTE and WP:NPOV ~ BigrTex 01:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. --Coredesat 00:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jason Pierce

Jason Pierce (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Does not meet WP:MUSIC -Nv8200p talk 01:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Pierce was a member of two notable bands, Spacemen 3 and Spiritualized, both of which have released albums on major labels [40] [41].--TBCΦtalk? 02:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Disagree with the nominator that this subject fails to meet WP:MUSIC guidelines. This subject has in fact gone on a national tour in Britain. For more information, please view this this webpage. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 02:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. Clearly notable - Spacemen 3 were one of the more influential British alternative groups of the late 1980s, and Spiritualized have enjoyed chart success in Britain. Spiritualized alone satisfy most of the criteria in the "Musicians and ensembles" section of WP:MUSIC, and Pierce himself satisfies most of the "Composers and lyricists" section. Frivolous AfD - people should really do some research before whacking tags on articles. Tpth 02:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I had never heard of this artist or his bands, but upon review of his page and the page for Spiritualized it is clear that the notability requirements are met. Eron 03:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - Spiritualised is clearly notable and thus the individual in question is too. Xdenizen 05:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep, he meets the notability requirements though I've never heard of him before. His albums have enjoyed success in the UK charts. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep Spiritualized clearly meet WP:MUSIC, Ladies And Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space makes frequent appearances in greatest albums lists. Catchpole 07:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - definitely notable enough to have an article of his own outside of his 2 notable groups. Ac@osr 11:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep - I actually tried speedy keeping this one, but another user thought I was a bit quick in my decision. Either way, Pierce clearly meets notability guidelines per what everyone above is saying. →Bobby← 12:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per commenters above, the subject meets our WP:BIO notes. Yamaguchi先生 06:09, 9 November 2006
• Keep Spacemen 3 and Spiritualized are incredibly influential and J. Spaceman (Jason Pierce) is a contemporary, working songwriter/composer/performer. 9 November 2006

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The result was merge. W.marsh 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. James the Fisherman Episcopal Church

St. James the Fisherman Episcopal Church (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

disputed PROD for NN-local church delete DesertSky85451 01:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:N, no more notable than any other church.--TBCΦtalk? 02:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Most individual churches are non-notable. --Metropolitan90 02:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• keep or merge to appropriate diocese or locality. Unfocused 03:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per TBC and nom. There is nothing to distinguish this church from any other church. JoshuaZ 05:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, nn church, nothing more. We should introduce the places of worship criteria sooner or later. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge - to here or here. While the church is not notable enough for its own page, there is no reason to delete a decent article when it would greatly improve either of the two relevant pages I mention above. -bobby 14:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete If merged, it should be with the article on the community. Articles for the dioceses of the Episcopal Church don't usually include mentions of the individual parishes of the dioceses. The cathedral parish is an exception; I can see an exception for a very notable parish, but this isn't one of those. -- Bpmullins | Talk 18:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nn parish church, parishcruft. Carlossuarez46 19:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to Islamorada, Florida (or to the diocese page as mentioned above). Doesn't need its own article but that doesn't mean that the information can't be useful elsewhere. If anyone's interested in expanding the article, I'd be interested in knowing why it changed its name so often. JYolkowski // talk 03:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as suggested, nn ~ BigrTex 02:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Five Miles From Woodstock

Five Miles From Woodstock (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Article fails WP:V and WP:MUSIC. There's no presence on Google for this band beyond wiki and its mirrors, plus a myspace page. The news article about the band member's survival of a plane crash did not mention the band. -- Whpq 01:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. It seems a bit strange that a band that is supposedly "seeing a rise of 500% [record sales] on last year and requests for a gig in Italy" only has thirty relevant results on Google, most of which are from Wikipedia and mySpace.--TBCΦtalk? 02:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom - that 500% increase could be pretty easily explained if thier previous sales figures were in the area of two. -- wtfunkymonkey 03:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete as NN and almost definite vanity. Ultra-Loser Talk / Contributions 03:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete The Band is does not meet WP notablity standards and this article does compromise the integrity of WP. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete no verification, and no claim to satisfy WP:MUSIC.-- danntm ^T _C 14:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I am a member of the band, and this article has only just come to my attention (it has not been written by us). It is largely incorrect and I will fix it ASAP. First, a few of the comments below need correction. The news article about Alex Milner-Smith's survival of a plane crash DOES mention the band, please read it properly. The main results from Google are not Wikipedia and MySpace, but the band's official page, [42]. We are also featured on current West End Les Mis actor Gina Beck's website: [43]. The sales figures are made up, I will edit them. We currently are under contract with EggNog Records and TuneCore Distributors: our album "Trash Talk" will be on sale from all digital music stores (including iTunes) from December 2006. We have toured France and Italy, I will post up articles ASAP. Thankyou for the comments.--ED

• Comment - I did read the plane crash article, and I stand by my original statement in the nomination. What the article states, is a quote from Alex Milner-Smith

He would also like to return to playing in his rock band: "I'm a guitar player but luckily I play the drums as well. I might have to play those for a while until my fingers heal."

This provides nothing in the way of verifiability. In any case, the article is a poor choice for reference as the article is not about the band, but about the victim of a plane crash. For the refernces that you are adding, please review WP:V, and WP:MUSIC as there are the criteria being applied. -- Whpq 17:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Fair enough, sensible point. I'm not advocating that this article should be kept on, by the way. I have no idea who wrote it. I will supply the correct information and then leave it to your sensible judgement. All the best. -- ED.

• Delete, fails WP:BAND and WP:V. Additional notability metric: no listeners on Last.fm. Maybe after the album hits the market.--Dhartung | Talk 23:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Be careful with autobiographical stuff. Still, if you want to keep the article, in light of the fact that the band has no major label releases, please provide links to reviews in reliable sources. If you have recieved reviews by music critics in newspapers, trade journals, magazines, etc., PLEASE PROVIDE THEM. Make sure the reviews are a) extensive and b) from reliable sources (click the link above for reliable sources) and the article becomes inherently keepable. In the absence of such evidence, it will be deletable. I will change my vote when and if the evidence of notability arrives. --Jayron32 05:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Though reading like an advert currently, an article on this band should be on wikipedia. One band member is famous in New Zealand after their plane crash, and many articles can be found on himin the NZ press. Also the motion from the JCR of Brasenose College, Oxford to make them the college's official band makes them a legitimate article. (Though should be made to read objectively). TGHB
• Delete Sorry, the band has not demonstrated enough notability for inclusion in an encyclopedia. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vox Imperium

Vox Imperium (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable online game. Looks like it fails WP:V and WP:WEB as there appears to be no reliable independent coverage. Delete as such. Wickethewok 02:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Article creator here. I vote Keep, as this page grew out of and enhances the List of Multiplayer Browser Games. This game meets the threshold of notability established by this list, though this could be indicitive of a need for a wider cull. However, the list has survived at least one deletion attempt based on this logic, so instead I expand it. Isotoad 04:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Unless the List of Multiplayer Browser Games entry deserves to be deleted, I don't see any reason why this entry shouldn't stay. WP:WEB seems to have been seriously eroded by these online games. Probably should address the root of the problem. I vote Keep. --Valeyard 04:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment is mentioned here as an alliance with EVE Online, but I'm not sure if that is the same Vox Imperium. T Rex | talk 02:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Not the same one; that's an in-game group. No vote. --humblefool® 03:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Nope, as a player of EVE Online, that's a (defunct, as far as I know... my alliance fought their last remnants half a year ago) in-game alliance. Never heard of the game mentioned in the article: I'll vote delete as it appears to fail WP:WEB. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 03:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I would have voted keep if I thought it was notable, but it has such a low Alexa rank that it doesn't even come up on traffic rankings. There are easily ten thousand browser games out there that should get articles before one can be justified for Vox Imperium. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 05:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Your comment has merit, but the notibility of this particular browser game is not contained simply in its Alexa rank. The tens of thousands of games you mention are largely uninspried clones of Gangwars. What caught my eye about Vox is its graphics -- it is one of the few games that is attempting to do something other than text. Look at the screenshot attached to the article. Much of Vox's notibility comes from its use of new web technologies. If this was just a Kings of Chaos script, I never would have made the page. Isotoad 07:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no indication of meeting WP:WEB, no third-party sources. It's hard for anything on the web created in "late August 2006" to be notable by now. Sandstein 06:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - faile WP:V, and no notability established. -- Whpq 19:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 03:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Wow, never heard of this game idea before. Why delete this article? Because the game sounds like about 10,000 other non-notable free broswer based strategy games going round the web, many of which try (or have their fans try) to get articles on wiki to drum up extra players. The Kinslayer 10:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. What Kinslayer said. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 16:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 13:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GamerNode

GamerNode (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Website/company/forums that appear to fail WP:WEB, WP:CORP, and WP:V. There doesn't seem to be any reliable independent coverage on the subject. Biggest claims to fame seems to be that it has a lot of pages and the staff attends gaming trade events. Delete. Wickethewok 02:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• COMMENT: The site has been updated with references, including some that may bear looking at.

• Delete - per nom. --wtfunkymonkey 03:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per nom. Xdenizen 05:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - independent media coverage added. --Yeldarb 2 06:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• That seems to be a press release, which is not independent at all. Wickethewok 06:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• The source, PR Newswire's Brian Anderson, is an independent source, according to the WP guidelines. Since the article was neither written nor circulated by the subject of the article, that seems to fulfill the criteria.--Yeldarb 2 07:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• PR Newswire looks to be essentially an ad/PR agency of sorts - basically a company hired to make press releases. Wickethewok 07:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• According to PR Newswire's own site, "PR Newswire is the world's leading corporate news distribution, targeting and monitoring / measurement measurement service." The article in question was written independently of GamerNode's influence in an earnest attempt to raise the profile of the website. The fact that it was written and circulated by a PR distribution service does not dilute its independence. Additionally, I have added more information to the entry, including distribution info for both a magazine and several websites.

You'd trust a company that publishes press releases to assert it's own notability? I wouldn't. (P.S. PR Newswire is actually a notable company.) MER-C 10:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• What I'm saying is that GamerNode didn't publish or write the release. PR Newswire regularly writes and circulates profile stories on businesses it considers noteworthy. The only participation GamerNode had in the creation or dissemination of the profile story by Brian Anderson was accepting the interview request from PR Newswire. PR Newswire simply does not write press releases on the behalf of its clients (which, according to the company directory accessed on 6 November at 11:30 PST, does not include GamerNode.com, GamerNode, Inc. or any of its subsidiaries). While the article certainly appears to be a press release, it is not.--Yeldarb 2 19:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above. MER-C 10:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - per independent coverage added. --MrBlondeX 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep-- apbsniper 11:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC) No such user; comment was actually written by 68.209.233.89 (talk • contribs). NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 18:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - reasons stated above. --Varsindarkin 19:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - look, accountless sockpuppets! PR Newswire gives press releases. I used to send them press releases when I worked for Gateway. "PR Newswire is the world leader in the electronic delivery of news releases and company-to-press information directly from companies, institutions and agencies to the media, financial community and consumers." Spare me. WP:WEB failed. WP:RS failed. WP:CORP failed. Nice site thou.Very weak keep - Site asserts at least some kind of notability.--Shrieking Harpy......^Talk|Count 22:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - per independent coverage added. --xkesterx 22:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC) — Xkersetx (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 03:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - on first inspection, it seemed to have passed WP:WEB, but all the references are just brief mentions of the site... sites like IGN mention hundreds of smaller websites in rumor-esque articles. --- RockMFR 04:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Even if the sites mention it in passing, shouldn't having material published each issue in a magazine which is not connected to the site count?--probescusv2 Note: User's first edit. --NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 15:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete. Non-notable website that fails the WP:WEB criterias. Numerous sockpuppets don't help the situation either.--TBCΦtalk? 08:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Website's main claim of notability is that it provides hosting for the Black Mesa Source forums. Otherwise, it's just another game news site that fails WP:WEB. This doesn't mean it's a bad site, just that it isn't encyclopedic. --Alan Au 08:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete WP:WEB failed. WP:RS failed. WP:CORP failed. I actually don't mind the sock and meatpuppets, since the Admins aren't gonna be fooled for a second and AfDs aren't a hand count. I'm finding it funny to watch mentally hilarious people (retards) thinking they are being all cunning and sneaky by posting 'keep' and not signing their post or using a false name when we can just click 'history' and see who ACTUALLY made the comment. Do the orderlies know these cretins are using the computers unsupervised? The Kinslayer 10:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I'd lay off on the personal attacks. That being said, it is useless. Sock/meat-puppetry, especially blatant cases like this, usually end up backfiring by annoying other users and making them vote to delete the article anyway. NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 15:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, the comment is really aimed at those that have come, said 'keep' and are never coming back, so I doubt there gonna complain! I agree about the puppetry backfiring though, it happened at the AfD for Empires once the meatpuppetry and canvassing started. The Kinslayer 16:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, site does not show any notability per WP:WEB. NeoChaosX [talk | contribs] 20:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Shrieking Harpy. Garrett^Talk 10:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Wikipedia policies state that there is no limit to articles, this is not a paper encyclopedia. Where else is someone suposed to look up information on these guys? If they are small, say so in the article. Get to the truth of their claims, and share that truth with the world. *jb 23:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Most people voting to keep seem to be members of the forums. That aside, no evidence was presented that this meets WP:WEB, non-trivial third-party coverage. The 3 references other than forum posts never ammount to more than a sentence each about this website. W.marsh 20:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actuarial Outpost

Actuarial Outpost (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable online community failing WP:V/WP:WEB. I request sources on the talk page for the article, but haven't gotten anything besides blog links or trivial mentions. Only 14 unique Google hits. Delete. Wickethewok 02:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, fails the criterias of WP:WEB. Alexa ranking of 95, 237--TBCΦtalk? 02:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The actuarial community as a whole is not well-known. Most actuaries, students, underwriters, and other insurance personnel will not have Alexa installed on their computers, due to corporate security measures, and violating them is grounds for termination of employment. As such, per Wikipedia:Search engine test#Bias in the Alexa test, the Alexa ranking is not really applicable here, because the vast majority of users are not Alexa users. Secondly, per Wikipedia:Search engine test#Google bias, articles that have near nothing to do with pop culture are at a distinct diasadvantage when it comes to the google test. Outside of the small actuarial/insurance community, I am sure most people have not heard of this site. However, in its field, it is eminently notable. Almost every college or university with an actuarial program (at least in the US and Canada) links to this site. The major actuarial societies in the US and Canada link to this site. When exams are released, many more students flock to this site over the CAS and SOA homepages because of the greater robustness of the servers. There are special forums for actuaries and students from all over the world. The authors of the most widely used actuarial study manuals frequent the exam sections of the site, answer student questions, and often base their new errata on comments from students at the site. It has one of the largest listings of actuarial jobs, and job searching advice. Even candidates for office of the SOA and CAS will make statements, engage in debate and dialogue, and campaign on this board, sometimes more than they do on the societies own home pages. It has been discussed in the publications of the societies, such as The Future Actuary -- the publication of the SOA geared to actuarial students and Future Fellows -- the publication of the CAS geared to students. As a credentialed actuary, I believe very strongly that this is one of those rare situations in which the exceptions to WP:WEB outweigh the general guidelines and that this site is eminently notable in its small field, which is sufficienty notable for wikipedia as a whole. -- Avi 03:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • But are there any reliable sources than focus on the website instead of briefly mentioning it? Also, being notable in a "small field" does not always make a subject notable enough for Wikipedia.--TBCΦtalk? 04:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I am of the firm belief that in this case it does make the subject notable enough. Obviously there is disagreement, which is why there is this AfD, but as someone who works IN the profession, although I cannot add any of my own commentary as that would be WP:OR, I do feel that my opinion on this is not without merit . I would ask that people look at the article, the subject, and the context before making a decision in this case, because of the small niche that actuaries hold. Thanks. -- Avi 04:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Instead of a seperate article, couldn't an external link or brief mention in the actuary article suffice? Though I personally don't think the website is notable, I do admit that it seems to be a great resource for those interested in the field.--TBCΦtalk? 04:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
        • This is exactly what people find so chilling and laugable about Wikipedia and why I avoid participating more than a few minutes here and there. Some dude whose contributions include write-ups about every video game imaginable, which I personally don't find notable or contribute to society at all (so let's remove those!), and who has no knowledge of actuarial science, comes along and says "delete". And those are the kinds of people in charge. Hmmm, so actuaries and other interested people have to constantly defend this article against attack from people outside the profession. That's just odd. They don't have time for that foolishness. This'd be like if I went over to some random engineering field and started nominating stuff for deletion. I wouldn't know what I was talking about so I'd stay out of it completely. Sources have already been quoted from two of the main actuarial societies in the world. The UK's society discussed the Outpost in an article as well and it's somewhere on their the-actuary.org.uk website. And assuming that Google is the be-all end-all source of discussions and articles about the Outpost is silly. There have been print publications mentions of the Outpost that never made it to the web, too. Surely this is at least as notable as "Super Play Action Football". How many third-party mentions is notable enough? Also, one would think that such forward-minded people such as those editing Wikipedia entries would accept that bloggers discussing the Outpost *is* notable. This is a tiny profession. Sorry it isn't as big as Super Mario Bros. TheActuary 6 November 2006 (UTC)
          • TheActuary, instead of resorting to ad hominem, try focusing on the issues at hand. Regarding your comments on my contributions, I focus on a variety of subjects, such as Christianity in Mongolia and Planetary Fourier Spectrometer, but that's beside the point. Being discussed by bloggers does not make a subject notable, as blogs are not considered reliable sources. I also suggest assuming good faith first before claiming that those who disagree with you are "forward-minded people". --TBCΦtalk? 16:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. This article has already been nominated for deletion before and passed the test. As a credentialed actuary as well, I can say that there is no other resource like the Outpost on the internet. You didn't receive "trivial sources" and I question your motives here. 14 unique Google hits is laughably untrue. The article is self-explanatory. I believe there are archived discussions on Avi's page that document prior dubious arguments for deletion. -- TheActuary 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Being nominated before does not make an article immune from being nominated again. Also, the result of the previous AfD was no consensus, not keep. As for your comment on Wickethewok's motives, I suggest you please assume good faith. --TBCΦtalk? 04:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • TA, TBC is correct, it was not a straight keep. As for me personally, I believe that Wickethewok was acting in good faith when this was nominated, I just think that this is an example of a pivotal, if not seminal, forum in a small field that is notable enough for wikipedia. For example, it was formed to be an anonymous registry forum in backlash to the CAS and SOA crack-downs (see the article). In a field where there may be a few thousand people worldwide at the time (casualty actuaries of the CAS/CIA), almost everybody knew each other, and people were afraid to speak about what they really felt about certain political issues fr fear of reprisal on the job. This forum almost single-handedly combatted that, from what I understand. TA would know more about this, he's been an actuary longer than I have. -- Avi 04:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Those are quite the claims regarding the importance of this forum. Can you provide something backing them up? Wickethewok 05:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • As of now, only my own experience, which is WP:OR and old posts from the boards, which I have linked. I can interview the two creators, Glenn and Traci, but I believe e-mails and personal interviews are not the best reliable sources. The actuarial field is not one in the news spotlight, as a professional society it has no union magazine, and the trade publications have mentioned it, but not done a piece on it as a whole. I guess I can try and get some of the editors at the CAS to do a featured piece in Future Fellows or something, but that wouldn't be out for months . What would you suggest, knowing that the entire field is not "sexy" and is not going to be in any major news outlet? -- Avi 11:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Unless we get some proper sources. Proof by assertion isn't going to cut it. Catchpole 07:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • change to Keep now the article has better sources. Catchpole 21:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Let's play Good Idea / Bad Idea! Ok, I'll go first! Good Idea: Writing an article with sources. Bad idea: Writing an article with sources but the only sources are the forum itself. Let's face it, folks, when your references section includes things like (“Lucy”'s response to “Brad”. Actuarial Outpost forums), you know the article's in deep trouble. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 23:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll add some references. TheActuary 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete per nom. --- RockMFR 04:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Hi! Tom here, the webmaster / moderator of the Actuarial Outpost. I've noticed several votes for deletion and I've managed to find a common similarity. They are all more than likely, not members of the outpost, not actuaries, and have never taken an actuarial exam.
  • Since the transfer of the administration, the site has grown to over 10,000 member and 1.8 million posts. Those numbers represent a large actuarial community that has been helping students pass exams for over 7 years now. The Outpost may seem insignificant compared to Wikipedia, but they share a common goal; spreading knowledge and helping students succeed.
  • Since the creation of the Actuarial Outpost, we have helped numerous students pass exams. I saw the mention of "Only 14 unique Google hits" as some sort of criteria for recognition on wikipedia, but if you do a search on our site for "I passed" or "woo hoo, I finally passed" or perhaps "I passed! Thanks everybody for the big help. I couldn’t have done it with out you guys!" you might notice that you get a few more than just 14 hits.
  • So what. . .Why should it be on Wikipedia, you ask? I travel to all of the SOA and CAS meetings and even go to the smaller club meetings around the US such as the IABA and just last week I went to the Chinese Actuarial Clubs annual Karaoke Party (I sang some Tony Bennett). There are two thing that I notice at all of these meetings: 1) People who come up to me and thank me for all of the hard work we do to help actuaries pass exams and keep them informed on the latest current events and 2) people that say "Actuarial Outpost . . . what's that?"
  • What I'm getting at here is even though we have a large group of actuaries that use the Actuarial Outpost, there is an even larger number that have never even heard of it. Wikipedia is well known amongst students for finding information and wikipedia has the opportunity to give them the inside scoop on a tool for learning, that's made just for actuaries. If wikipedia is not in the business of spreading information and helping people learn, then by all means, push the big red button, but as far as I can see, this article should stay, according to the philosophy that I have perceived Wikipedia is run by.
  • P.S. As a moderator, I realize how time consuming it is dealing with all of these little issues on a daily basis, but I assure you that this issue I take dear to heart. My main goal when I took over responsibility of the Outpost was to help students continue to learn and pass exams, and that is the only reason Glenn & Traci were willing to give me control of the site. I like to think they have been happy with what I have done.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Outpost Tom (talk • contribs) 00:11, November 7, 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I'm afraid I'll have to debunk your common similarity as I am an actuary (albeit of the UK variety). Wikipedia is not an appropriate forum to advertise your website. Catchpole 07:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment I understand that this may come across as an advertisement to some, but I think that may too broad of an accusation, since it's not like we're selling tee-shirts or something to that effect. To the contrary, we spend a lot of time and money making sure this resource is available to the actuarial community as a service. This is a non-profit venture to facilitate learning, just like Wikipedia. The wikipedia page was not created by me, nor ever edited by me, but rather by a member who felt that it was information worth sharing. As for my assumption of the common similarity, my assumptions only tend to be 97.5% correct with an error of +/- 2.5%, which I feel is actuarially sound .
      • The Actuarial Outpost Foundation is a non-profit organization with the goal of providing free knowledge to every person in the world. Meeting this goal through the maintenance, development and distribution of free content, The Actuarial Outpost relies on the donations from it's members and actuarial companies to run its vBulletin-based projects.--Outpost Tom 19:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
        • In most cases, being a good resource does not make a website any more notable. See WP:WEB.--TBCΦtalk? 02:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • A sampling of reliable third party sources demonstrating notability were added at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuarial_Outpost#References TheActuary 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Sources added include references to the Casualty Actuarial Society (CAS) and the Society of Actuaries. If the CAS's candidate liason (candidates are people taking actuarial exams who have not received their designations) is specifically tasked to monitor the AO as the barometer of candidate feeling about the society and the exams, I think that is a very strong proof of notability. If you disagree, please explain. Thank you. -- Avi 02:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:WEB HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Numerous third party authorities in the industry have now been cited in the article, including some from one of the organizations that administers the actuarial designation in North America. Last time this article was submitted for deletion other references were provided as well, including references in the New York Times and other publications. There's plenty of external authoritative publications referencing the site in question. [User:Waterwheel]

• I must disagree. Half of the references listed barely mention this forum/website at all. The other half of the references are to posts on the forum. Wickethewok 21:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• You made that point clear when you nominated this article for deletion . WP:WEB itself states that there are times for exceptions to firm application of the guideline, and the notability of this site in the tiny niche that actuaries hold in my opinion eminnently qualifies it for notability, Alexa and Google notwithstanding (and explained why they are inapplicable according to WP:WEB itself above). -- Avi 23:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• STRONG Keep It is a core policy of Wikipedia that you do not delete things for simply not being notable. Wikipedia has pages for individual Star Trek episodes. It is ridiculous to keep an episode summary, and then to delete an entire community. *jb 00:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Core policy? Where? Can you link to it? HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Under official policies, [44] - "Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. This means that there is no practical limit to the number of topics we can cover other than verifiability and the other points presented on this page." This is official policy, as opposed to simply a guideline. If you are going to start enforce notability, then you should begin by proposing the deletion of all pages for Star Trek episodes that are not individually notable (which would be all, except for maybe the one with the first interracial kiss, but even then that would be better in the main Star Trek article). *jb 01:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

But that policy does not say that you cannot delete things for not being notable. It says we have more latitude than other encyclopedias, not that we have to include everything. It does not invalidate consensus any way here. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. First of all, the existence of the subject of the article is eminently verifiable per WP:V; the only worthwhile deletion criterion in the nomination is that it fails WP:WEB. I argue that WP:WEB is the wrong guideline to decide the notability of this community. Yes, it is a community with a strong web presence, but as the website itself is not innovative as a website (it appears to be just a community blog and a vBulletin), the governing guideline should be WP:ORG (or WP:COMPANY, if you prefer). Now WP:ORG is not ratified, but I think the text of the proposed guideline has reasonably wide support. It is clear that the Actuary Outpost is "national or international in scope". The next clause, "information can be verified by a third party source" is more problematic, as most of the article text is from primary sources. Per WP:RS, a subject can be used as a primary source of information about itself, but such information should ideally be supplemented by secondary and tertiary sources. In my opinion, the text of the Actuary Outpost article should be better sourced and details that are not verifiable from third parties even in principle should be removed, but this criticism is better suited for a peer review than AfD. (And I heavily encourage the principal authors of this article to put it through a peer review, where I might provide a more thorough criticism.) — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 01:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Fun Fact Reference Oh yea, forgot to mention, one of our members (with 0 posts) is a screen writer who is using our site to do research for a character in an upcoming movie that will have an actuary as one of the characters. Does that count as reference? Will there be partial credit? Outpost Tom 19:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete established. W.marsh 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Science and technology

Redundant, articles already exist seperately on science and technology. In fact most of this page's text is lifted from those two articles. (this was a speedy nomination, which I changed to AfD; there is also a related discussion on Talk:Science and technology ZimZalaBim (talk) 03:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination. we don't need an article for every combination of words and/or practice under the sun. -wtfunkymonkey 03:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or Rename to "Relationship Between Science and Technology". The scope of the article should be changed to explore the relationship between the two terms, which is a very relevant one, and not to just listing their definitions. After all, the development of technology is related to the development of science and vice-versa.--Lobizón 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't see the role of encyclopedia articles to merely explore the relationship between two terms, unless there is a specific and notable history of the particular phrase in question (such as "cloak and dagger"). Perhaps that is the case with "science and technology," but this isn't conveyed in the current article. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment That's why I think the scope of the article should be changed to reflect this relationship, rather than delete the article altogether. Technological and scientific progress go hand in hand, and there are a lot of academic works, historical or sociological, explaning the historic relationship between the development of both.--Lobizón 12:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Which is why we properly have articles on the academic disciplines studying these two terms: science and technology studies & history of science and technology. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, purely redundant. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete These concepts should (and are) discussed in two seperate articles. This article is not needed. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep for now. I think we need to be carefull here and it might be best to see how the article develops for a while. As is pointed out on the talk page the term "Science and Technology" is used frequently as in "S & T Studies", "History of S & T" etc. This make it a likely search term on WP. It is not just the sum of what is on two different articles. I would much prefer to have time to argue this out on the talk page rather than at AfD. --Bduke 12:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep (also for now). The article is not to explain the term "science" and the term "technology." It is for the term "science and technology" which takes on a meaning other than the sum of its two parts. I am the first to admit that the article in its current state is weak. However, I am not the right person to write the final article and it was my intent to put a clean-up tag on the article but I did not move fast enough and the speedy delete tag was up before I found my tag. It may turn out that nobody is able to bring this up to the desired standard, but at least give the article a couple of months to show where it can go. Cheers -- MCG 14:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• delete the article does not establish any insight of merit that is not found in the primary and secondary articles on science and technology already. This is not to say that it couldn't do that, but that it does not right now. --Buridan 14:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment If there is merit, why delete it as opposed to fix it? It has been pointed out that there are several articles incorporating this term (which is more than its two parts). Additionally there are categories that do this as well; in a quick search I can find Category:Science and technology by country (and this is full of many other sub categories of science and technology) and Category:Science and technology studies. If you delete the article Science and technology, it will eventually be re-created. Why not deal with the content of the article now instead of later? -- MCG 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Main article has been trimmed significantly to essentially stub-status. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 15:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The question of alternative approaches and the benefit of incrementalism and "breakthrough" aka "spontaneous innovation", is quite an important subject in engineering and science. It is a bit like having an article on the trinity for religion in some ways they are considered the same thing, but in other ways they are very different. The term is used frequently enough to make it a potential article - so why not slap an { { undercontruction} } tag on it?--Mike 16:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep But please add a scholarly source for the claim that there is more to the Gestalt "Science and Technology" than to the conjunction of "Science" and "Technology." Otherwise, even though I believe the claim in the introduction, this looks somewhat like original research. Edison 19:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It's a bit sad that this article is all we have to say on the subject of Science and Technology in the general sense. Surely there can be more flesh added to these bones along with some nice cites? Robovski 01:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

yep... it is sad.. but that is why there are around 40 other articles covering this material. this article at best should be a category at best, and you know what... it already is.... so this article is moot. --Buridan 02:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment But it is not already a category. Category:Science and technology -- MCG 03:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hybrilog

Hybrilog (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This appears to be a neologism, as a Google search reveals only fifty results outside Wikipedia. Additionally, the way the article is written appears to indicate it is copied from another source. -- tariqabjotu 03:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Looks like it was created by the creator of the concept, as seen here. --humblefool® 03:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Danny Lilithborne 03:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete per above. Also, have a look at the creator's userpage - single-purpose account. Ultra-Loser Talk / Contributions 03:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:NEO and WP:OR. Article has been published by the original author Pedro Andrade/Pandrade here. Caknuck 05:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Neologism and apparent original research. Xdenizen 05:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:NEO, WP:OR. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This is not a commonly used term and the article seems to be OR. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable neologism, personal essay. JIP | Talk 12:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 14:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HNC Network

HNC Network (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Group of hackers or something that doesn't seem to meet WP:BIO or WP:V. Looks like mostly vanity and original research. Pretty much all of the "references" make no reference to the subject of the article. Only the ABCnews article even mentions the subject, and even then, only a couple times in some passing sentences. Delete as failing any reliable independent coverage. Wickethewok 03:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Independent Sources

The definition of reference:

(ref er ence –noun ) 1. an act or instance of referring.; 2. a mention; allusion.; 3. something for which a name or designation stands; denotation.; 4. a direction in a book or writing to some other book, passage, etc.; 5. a book, passage, etc., to which one is directed.; 6. reference mark (def. 2).; 7. material contained in a footnote or bibliography, or referred to by a reference mark.; 8. use or recourse for purposes of information: a library for public reference.; 9. a person to whom one refers for testimony as to one's character, abilities, etc.; 10. a statement, usually written, as to a person's character, abilities, etc.; 11. relation, regard, or respect: all persons, without reference to age. –verb (used with object); 12. to furnish (a book, dissertation, etc.) with references: Each new volume is thoroughly referenced.; 13. to arrange (notes, data, etc.) for easy reference: Statistical data is referenced in the glossary.; 14. to refer to: to reference a file.

Being that EACH article in the references, specifically references the moniker(s) of the HNC Network and also some of those formerly involved with it, said reference is therefore verifiable and legitimate as it is relevant to the entity in which it refers, no matter how major or minor said reference is.

Now, not withstanding this article has a ways to come, but even a quick search across any major search engine offers several substantial clues to why, where and when this group existed. Let alone the group seemingly has a current effort underway at www.thereformed.org, of which the group could obviously be contacted for a first-hand account or pointers towards other verifiable content. Perhaps this is a case of someone not wishing to help in finishing the homework?

The disturbing thing is this, your lack of willingness to assist in clearing up this article's potential misgivings and your history of requests in attempting to axe many well-laid articles simply due to your impatience with those lacking MASS quantities of referencial materials. Your contribs speak for themselves, play God on another Wiki, leave this one to those that can be objective and helpful in creating a incredible Internet resource of new content while paying tribute to the heritage and of those that walked before it, such as this group. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.203.174.248 (talk • contribs).04:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

References for articles necessary for inclusion into Wikipedia are defined differently than those on a normal dictionary. See WP:RS for more info.--TBCΦtalk? 04:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Be that as it may, has anyone attempted to explain, assist or correct the author? There seems to be no due process on Wikipedia anymore.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.203.174.248 (talk • contribs).09:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia has never had due process as Wikipedia is not a democracy.--TBCΦtalk? 04:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The subject of the article hasn't been subject to "multiple non-trivial published works ". Also, "legitimate" references are not always reliable sources, especially if said references are not independent of the site itself.--TBCΦtalk? 04:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree - your Delete is considerably an injustice when a site in the same category spells contains NO references and provides only a handful of external links to substantiate their presence - see l0pht . Does this not make Wikipedia a biased publishing source if it doesn't effect the rules against all offenders? .—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.203.174.248 (talk • contribs).09:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Due process is not a procedure relevant to just democracy, FYI. You'll also notice in the Wikipedia is not a bureacracy it states clearly:

Wikipedia is not a moot court, and although rules can make things easier, they are not the purpose of the community and instruction creep should generally be avoided. A perceived procedural error made in posting anything, such as an idea or nomination, is not grounds for invalidating that post. Follow the spirit, not the letter, of any rules, policies and guidelines. Disagreements should be resolved through consensual discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures.

Yet this has been anything but. NOONE apparently has attempted contact with the original author or the other contributors, which there seems to be a substantial few to attempt to correct this article and refine it..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.203.174.248 (talk • contribs).09:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Currently, this nomination is being obscured by a lot of smoke and mirrors. Although the Anonymous Contributor's concerns about the nomination process might be valid, that's neither here not there at the moment. Consider the article itself: it makes quite a few claims, but precious little to back up most of it. The big names it attempts to associate the group with never seem to actually touch the group's own reputation - there's an implied noteworthiness, but no explicit proof of anything. Everything is described in great detail, but where's the beef? Although I hate to vote to delete an article that has obviously had a great deal of effort put into it, there's no assertion of notability that I can see. --humblefool® 05:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per humblefool. Whilst it seems to be thoroughly crafted there is, never-the-less, a distinct lack of moo. OBM | ^{blah blah blah} 15:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. per Humblefool. This article tries, through both its length and its "references", to imply notability, yet fails to show it. yandman 16:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The anon editor's horibly illogical, and unsatisfactory arguements notwithstanding, the subject does not seem to merit ANY mention in Third Party references. If specific citations can be found in several third-party references, I will change my vote. The ONLY third party citations are reprints of the SAME article from CNN and Computer World that mention a different group of white-hat hackers. The litmus test for worthiness on wikipedia is references in THIRD PARTY sources. We have none yet. Thus, I vote delete until this situation changes. --Jayron32 05:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• This article should not be deleted. I'm a former member of HNC and this is actually the only source of information about HNC we have now. Sure, some references are questionable, but instead if deleting this article we should rather edit it. People are references too. Do we want another incident like this one: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061106-8161.html ? Before we delete we should be able to edit this article. --xen ix 01:38 07.11.2006 (CET)

That wasn't an incident, it was the justified removal of an article on the grounds of notability. And so is this. yandman 13:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You get to keep the article if you can provide third-party references (as in, outside of the group itself) that talk about it, as expressly spelled out in the 2 cornerstone wikipedia policies: Policy on Verifiability, and Policy on Reliable Sources. If you cannot provide these references, than your group does not deserve an article in wikipedia. We wish you no harm or ill will, but Wikipedia is not the place for information like this. Many places exist on the web to promote your group. Wikipedia is not one of them. --Jayron32 22:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll bypass the blatant ignorance by my counterpart of above and move along to the bits. Taking it upon myself to contact one of the former members, since it seems noone else did, there apparently is historical, third-party articles that were indeed written(including a published book mention of the group, several interviews with NOW media, an interview with ZDNet UK, an interview with ABCNews apart from ViXeN900 and some other odd and ends), but unfortunately the archived links that were relayed via correspondence no longer hold data although their architecture is within scope of others in the same independent sites (apparently sometime between 2000-2002 many online new agencies expunged these records?). Secondly, it appears that this member had no knowledge there was an article posted on Wikipedia about the group, but upon reading it, had suggested to posssibly remove for edit and then resubmit at a later date for an article tailored to their history - he did however confirm that the timeline was incredibly accurate. He also questioned whether a full upload of all the tools to an independent external source and of course the HNC Video made in Las Vegas would help in validating any future entry? I was unsure of what to say, but I didn't think it would hurt since it was a published, commercial product produced in partnership with an independent post-production house. Thoughts?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.203.174.248 (talk • contribs).11:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Teddy Tired

Teddy Tired (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Article is about a neologism, "teddy tired", which has not gained common currency. A google search for "teddy tired" came up with very few relevant hits, all of which seemed to be from blogs. No reliable secondary sources were cited in the article. I could not verify that the Hoodoo Gurus wrote a song lyric about "teddy tired" with a variety of google searches. The article itself says this neologism is specific to a particular industry and goes on to point out that it is more of a one-man campaign than a common expression in Australia or elsewhere. Teddy Tired fails WP:NEO. Darkspots 03:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• The Hoodoo Gurus bit is bogus per this, and I distrust anything that can be said to spread like wildfire. Delete. --humblefool® 03:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete most of the ghits are completely unrelated. This would fit better on urban dictionary. Ultra-Loser Talk / Contributions 03:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable neologism. JIP | Talk 12:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per above. This is nothing more than a dicdef/neologism. -bobby 15:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. --Wareq 01:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The Hoodoo Gurus song was "Waking Up Tired" which lyrics databases show didn't contain this term. Ebbsco's Australia New Zealand database comes up with nothing on this. Real verifibiality problems with this and if it was verified it would be a dictionary definition. Capitalistroadster 05:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Capitalistroadster 05:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, I distrust neologisms when they're being spread by people with nicknames like "Mikey", "Jono", or "Totters". Lankiveil 06:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC).
• Delete per nom --Michael Johnson 12:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Roisterer 12:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Redirect. Article already included on Hawaiian Airlines main page. Not enough content to warrent its own space. -bobby 16:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaiian Airlines destinations

Hawaiian Airlines destinations (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

150.135.180.195 added this info into the main Hawaiian Airlines article today. Honestly, I think Hawaiian is small enough that it's not a big hindrance to have this list maintained in the main Hawaiian article as opposed to having a separate article to list their destinations. Hawaiian717 03:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Having a separate article follows the form of United Airlines destinations, American Airlines destinations, etc. Keep, no reason to delete. --humblefool® 03:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • This is why I brought up the size issue. Horizon Air and SkyWest Airlines are examples of having the list on the same page (though those may be long enough to be split; Aloha Airlines on the other hand seems clearly short enough to keep where it is). American and United serve many destinations worldwide and having the list on the main article page could easily overwhelm the article. I don't think this is an issue with Hawaiian. -- Hawaiian717 03:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I feel that articles should follow a standard format; the "...destinations" seems to be the standard, and should be kept throughout all airlines articles. In any case, even if you merged it into the main article, it would still be ineligible for deletion, because edit histories need to be retained. --humblefool® 04:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Redirect seems reasonable to me. -- Hawaiian717 06:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Sounds fine to me. --humblefool® 06:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Hawaiian Airlines. I think common sense should rule here. If a list of destinations is too bulky for the airline's main article (à la American Airlines destinations), then it merits its own article. For regional carriers like Hawaiian with a smaller list, inclusion in the main article is less obtrusive. Caknuck 05:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect per Caknuck. Someone has already copied into the main article and it doesn't make it too long. --Steve 05:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect, does not have a long list of destinations, so keeping it in the main article should be fine. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Distance Learning Accreditation Council

National Distance Learning Accreditation Council (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unnotable accreditation mill. When this was created I looked into this and found only one article from a magazine (its the one source cited). It is not an approved accreditor or tied to any credible school, and I noted it accordingly. Thus, since it is not recognized by the Department of Education it must pass WP:CORP. I see no evidence of that. What city is it in? What country is it in? There is not enough material for an article, and as it stands it is an article about what it isn't. Therefore, not wikiworthy. Arbusto 03:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. JoshuaZ 05:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete although the article has been edited over time to completely dismiss it's subject as unofficial. The council fails WP:CORP --Steve 05:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It appears to be an organization trying to establish notability through the use of wikipedia. That puts the cart before the horse. Sorry, unless proof of notability outside of wikipedia can be established, it must go --Jayron32 05:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Although I agree that it may not pass WP:CORP, I think it's important to keep it for people to find credible and factual information regarding what they claim to be. While one can infer a lack of credible information to mean the organization isn't credible, I don't think most people would see it that way. Should we delete information on Snake Oil just because they were charlatans? Isn't it important that other people not be fooled? While i've disagreed with the wording of the previous article in its professionalism, I have agreed that it should be noted for it's attempt to decieve people.12.207.87.61 11:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I'm going to ammend my position above. After reconsideration, if the organization doesn't meet WP:CORP then it should not have it's own entry. However, it should remain on the List of unrecognized accreditation associations of higher learning.12.207.87.61 11:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allah-win's Law

Allah-win's Law (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Barely-coherent quasi-POV OR attempt to create a corollary to Godwin's Law.

• Delete. Seems to be original research, as evidenced by the few results on Google, most of which are from Wikipedia and blogs.--TBCΦtalk? 04:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — looks to be OR and kinda nonsense. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 04:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, ick. --humblefool® 04:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, original research with point of view problems. --Metropolitan90 05:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, NN, OR, and POV --Steve 05:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Egregiously POV, and largely rubbish. Xdenizen 05:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete dumb. Danny Lilithborne 06:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, pure nonsense, POV fork. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per all. Shimeru 10:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per everyone. JIP | Talk 12:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a neologism and apparent original research. Do it quick, before someone brings Nazis into this discussion... uh, nevermind..--Isotope23 17:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Who is Allah-win and what exactly makes this "law" his or hers? Delete as only the Third Reich would want an article so devoid of context. Puerto De La Cruz 17:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as completely neologistic OR veiling a rant. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 05:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete CSD A7 -- Samir धर्म 05:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ron dagan

Ron dagan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Only source cited is own website. Piece was originally spam/fluff, author asserted notability but "sources" provided barely mention the guy and are not notable or reliable regardless. No new sources have been provided so recommend deletion. Seraphimblade 04:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Merge not ruled out. W.marsh 00:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superior (proposed state)

Superior (proposed state) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Certainly an amusing proposal, but this smacks of original research or an outright hoax since the only sources are A) a blog and B) a book that appears to not really exist. Also might have something to do with the Colbert Report... that should make it fun. Anyway, if someone can produce reliable sources confirming this topic great, but otherwise this article needs to go. --W.marsh 05:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, might be worth a WP:BJAODN, and pray it's not Colbert related. --humblefool® 05:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • New evidence, new vote. Keep, but cleanup. Still BJAODN-worthy in my opinion, though! --humblefool® 18:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It's also weaseled its way onto Upper_Peninsula... --humblefool® 05:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

And List of U.S. state secession proposals and Historic regions of the United States. All 3 references will need to be removed if a reliable source doesn't appear... I will most likely take care of it. --W.marsh 05:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as unsourced per A) and B) above --Steve 05:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC) So some sources have been found for up to the 70s when this movement seems to have petered out. Oh, and 4 minutes of news coverage from 1971 is hardly notability enough for an article. I'll change to a Redirect to Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and flesh out the section that is already there. --Steve 22:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, and send it to BJAODN - per nom I'm changing my vote to neutral.--andrew|ellipsed...^Talk 06:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Arbusto 06:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Keep
• Delete, per nom, nothing to say, this is lame. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 06:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Changing to merge and redirect, as per sources given. Does not need its own article at this moment. A section at Upper Peninula of Michigan will be good. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 02:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per norm. If Colbert did propose such a state (something I could see him do) then a mention of it ought to be placed on his article. But this looks like a... well, a joke. Merge Alright, the movement might be real, but not serious enough to justify its own article. This debate should be turned into a mention in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan article. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup. The map appears to be a complete invention. The references provided in the article at present are extremely weak. But there was a genuine, semi-serious effort a few decades ago to form a state of Superior led by the prominent local politician Dominic Jacobetti. Better references are certainly needed. The effort is briefly mentioned here in the biographical notes for the collection of his papers at NMU. AFAICT, most present-day calls for secession are intended as either humor or an expression of dissatisfaction with downstate government. I don't think anyone takes it seriously anymore, but there does seem to be some kernel of truth to the secession proposal. In 1978, Jacobetti introduced a bill in the state legislature for separation, but it never came to a vote. [45] And here is a pretty good account of the proposal to separate, although perhaps too much of a personal essay to be a reliable source -- though it does provide a general outline of events that could probably be verified from other sources. older ≠ wiser 15:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Keep Living in Northern Michigan, I heard this idea widely and can attest to it not being complete BJAODN. Vanderbilt University has an archive for a NBC newscast in 1975 that corroborates that this is real. link to vanderbilt After reviewing this link, I suggest that others retract their votes. FWIW, my google method was searching on "Superior" and "51st state" [46] MPS 17:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but one 31 year old newscast transcription is not sufficient evidence to prove this a serious movement. If there were truly active plans in Congress and the Michigan legislature to slpit the state of Michigan then an article will be justified. Right now, these just seems to be a lingering idea enterained by some residents and local politicans from time to time. This might be worth a mention on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan article but not a seperate article. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The original AFD was started by somone's thought that this was BJAODN. It's clearly not a hoax. The numerous sources that have been since unearthed show that this was significant if futile movement in the 1970s and earlier. IMNSHO, Wikipedia ought to document the extent to which there is or isn't (was or wasn't) a movement to form the State of Superior. I still think it can and should stand alone given the level of documentation that we have unearthed. Are we going to merge State of Lincoln, Upstate New York's Statehood Movement, Cascadia, and Jesusland map simply because they also aren't ever going to happen? It doesn't have to be serious or even likely in order to be notable. MPS 04:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does need to have been a serious movement, or at least it must have raised a lot of controversy. Did this movement really cause a lot of controversy. Was it on the front page of the NY Times? Were there heated debates among the intelgesita and legislature? Yes, I also was under the impression that was a BJAODN; it isn't. But, for the time being I stand by my vote that this article ought to be merged into the Upper Peninsula of Michigan article. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

How about the National Review? Besides, all these votes for merging to the UP neglect the fact that this is also a Wisconsin Movement. See long blockquote added at bottom. MPS 22:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever lived in a part of the United States where secession and autonomy were not major issues in local politics. In northern Wisconsin, where I spent my childhood, there has been agitation for the creation of a separate state of Superior, encompassing the northern parts of Michigan and Wisconsin. The justification was both cultural and economic: "Yoopers" have more in common with people on the Wisconsin shore of Lake Superior than either group has with the rest of its state, both regions suffer from unemployment and underdevelopment, and both speak a dialect unintelligible to outsiders. .

Thanks for the information... more sources are always better and the article still needs some work, but this probably shouldn't be deleted now, in my opinion. --W.marsh 18:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ultra Mega Strong Keep This article is intensely fascinating, not a hoax, and is exactly the kind of article that makes me WANT to use Wikipedia! --172.148.158.110 18:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

And what makes you so sure that this is proposal is taken serios by the Federal and Michigan state legislature. While I beleive that people in the upper peninsual have some discontent over their tax dollars going to the lower peninsual and some residents might entertain the thought of splitting the state from time to time, I do not see any evidence of Congress or the Michigan legislature seriously considering such a proposal. Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Does it have to be an active, current movement that is being taken seriously by the legislature? The fact that it is taken seriously by its advocates over the past 110+ years demonstrates that it has a strong measure of verifiable notability as an independent subject. Alansohn 01:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Was it really taken seriously by federal and state legislature? Was there an actual vote? Heated discussion, perhaps even fillebusters? The mere fact that an issue shifts from the back to the front of some people's minds every blue moon isn't enough to justify its own article. This article ought to merged in the the Upper Peninsula of Michigan article. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

see blockquote below. Looks like Wisconsin was significantly involved as well. MPS 23:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Regular Strong Keep I had heard of this in the past, and did some nosing around Google News and Google Books for references to such a proposed state, both of which turn up many references, few of which have enough detail to be added to the article. The article has been expanded with a number of fully sourced references documenting the history of this proposal back at least to the 1890's, with nary a Colbert mention found. See this link for Google Books references, which show a brief summary and a small scan of the relevant text in each of the books. A Google News Archive search brings up about ten references to the proposal in the 1975-1977 timeframe from major newspapers in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and northern Wisconsin. Other searches were done using "State of Superior" AND Michigan as search terms, others involving "Upper Peninsula" and "Secession" were also fruitful. This is a real phenomenon that justifies retention in Wikipedia. Alansohn 19:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

While this may be "a real phenomenon" that "justifies retention" on WP; it does not justify its own article but rather a mention in the exsisting Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

see blockquote below MPS 23:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into Upper Peninsula of Michigan. There is at least some good evidence. It's not exactly a serious "movement" (if it was even serious at the time Jacobetti proposed it!) but it is interesting. Not enough for a full article, though, it's more of a footnote to Upper Peninsula history. -- dcclark (talk) 20:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactely, "It's not exactly a serious 'movement'". If there is lingering discontent over the distribution of government resources among the residents of the upper peninsula than such can be mention in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan article. Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge per dcclark -- Bpmullins | Talk 21:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per dcclark. The concept of Yoopers thinking they could create a sustainable state on their own is a very real phenomenon, but the name of this article is a complete neologism. That said there is no reason for a standalone at this namespace and this would be better covered as a section in Upper Peninsula of Michigan.--Isotope23 01:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Discussion Section (a place to discuss our votes)

Rather than start discussion of votes, let's start a discussion section here...

The question BrendelSignature seems to be taking to heart is whether this is a "real" (moving) movement or is a "fake" one. My answer is that it is neither. It is a real cultural meme/rumor/phenomenon that has been floating around Northern Michigan and the UP for years. This is kinda like Christopher Walken for President... but it really happened. We shouldn't argue that just because it happened 20 years ago it is not relevant. It is relevant and notable... and now it is documented. IMHO we could change the name of it so people know that it is not a really active movement. MPS 22:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

From a review of the timeline of the books and newspaper articles published on the subject, this seems to be a meme that's floating out there, popping up with some seriousness every twenty years or so, generating interest in the U.P., treated as quaint but undoable pie-in-the-sky by downstaters, and has never generated enough steam to be considered for real. When it is back in the public's conscience it does get play in the media, as exhibited by the Google News sources, and then it fades away in a state of dormancy, only top up two or three decades later. I think its status as an almost viable movement for periods of time over more than a century demonstrates that it should be a standalone article. Alansohn 01:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this one is barely notable enough for a separate article. Compare it with Jefferson (proposed U.S. state), which clearly is deserving of its own article. If we allow the second I think there's a good case for the first. -- Bpmullins | Talk 20:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom. I don't think the movement is a hoax but I can't see how it merits an article in it's own right. Xdenizen 01:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per added references to reliable sources. JChap2007 03:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge or redirect to Upper Peninsula of Michigan, clearly the right place for this. Andrew Levine 06:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the recent addition of reputable sources. Certainly not original research. Maxamegalon2000 20:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, failing that merge as above. Not the first intra-state secessionist movement I've heard of either. Robovski 01:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Serious proposal before the web came up. JASpencer 14:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

There shouldn't be anything in Michigan Legislature, as the Michigan government would obviously be vehemently opposed to the idea of losing all of the taxpayers in the UP, it's a very interesting article and should most definitely stay. 141.209.236.224 17:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[47]

STORIES OF THE BADGER STATE. THE BOUNDARIES OF WISCONSIN

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From a 1900 Book: STORIES OF THE BADGER STATE by Reuben Gold Thwaites Copyright, 1900

The people of the northwest wished to be released from Wisconsin, in order that they might either cast their fortunes with their near neighbors in the new Territory of Minnesota, or join a movement just then projected for the creation of an entirely new State, to be called "Superior." This .proposed state was to embrace all the country north of Mont Trempealeau and east of the Mississippi, including the entire northern peninsula, if the latter could be obtained; thus commanding the southern land western shores of Lake Superior, with the mouth of Green Bay and the foot of Lake Michigan to the southeast.

.

The St. Croix representative in the legislature was especially wedded to the Superior project. He pleaded earnestly and eloquently for his people, whose progress, he said, would be "greatly hampered by being connected politically with a country from which they are separated by nature, cut off from communication by immense spaces of wilderness between." A memorial from the settlers themselves stated the case with even more vigor, asserting that they were "widely separated from the settled parts of Wisconsin, not only by hundreds of miles of mostly waste and barren lands, which must remain uncultivated for ages, but equally so by a diversity of interests and character in the population." All of this reads curiously enough in these days, when the intervening wilderness resounds with the hum of industry and " blossoms as the rose." But that was long before the days of railroads; the dense forests of central and western Wisconsin then constituted a formidable wilderness, peopled only by savages and wild beasts.

.

Unable to influence the Wisconsin legislature, which stubbornly contended for the possession of the original tact, the St. Croix people next urged their claims upon Congress. The proposed State of Superior found little favor at Washington, but there was a general feeling that Wisconsin would be much too large unless trimmed. The result was that when she was finally admitted as a State, the St. Croix River was, in large part, made her northwest boundary; Minnesota in this Manner acquired a vast stretch of country, including the thriving city of St. Paul.

.

Wisconsin was thus shorn of valuable territory on the south, to please Illinois; on the northeast, to favor Michigan; and on the northwest, that some of her settlers might join their fortunes with Minnesota. The State, however, is still quite as large as most of her sisters in the Old Northwest, and possesses an unusual variety of soils, and a great wealth of forests, mines, and fisheries. There is a strong probability that, bad Congress, in 1848, given to Wisconsin her "ancient limits," as defined by the Ordinance of 1787, the movement to create the proposed state of "Superior" would have gathered strength in the passing years, and possibly would have achieved success, thus depriving us of our great northern forests and mines, and our outlet upon the northern lake.

Also, Check out this 1975 map (bigger map here) proposed by C. Etzel Pearcy, geography professor at California State University, Los Angeles... and story corroborating Pearcy's proposalMPS 23:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's another one [48] from the May 5, 1895, Chicago Tribune. older ≠ wiser 01:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The proposal is historically real and notability has been established. --Oakshade 21:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 21:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old shoes

Old shoes (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Although 2 newspaper articles are cited their notability is questionable Dylan Lake (t·c·ε) 06:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, Local indie scene artist, it seems. Nothing particularly notable about this. --humblefool® 06:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable and questionable sources. Signature^brendelNow under review! 07:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - I thought this was going to be an article about all the odd shoes one sees hanging on odd wires. I wanted to know whether this phenomena was just some witty humour or some ancient religious practice! --Mike 16:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per not notable. Also, I would like to see an article explaining why all those shose get up on the power lines. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep A non-notable band, but a band nonetheless! Mr. Brigg's Ink 16:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC) Eh?

Do you know how many bands there are? More than we have articles. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. – Avi 03:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chun Sik Kim

Chun Sik Kim (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Notability appears to be questionable. Weak delete. --Nlu (talk) 06:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I don't see anything indicating notability -- wtfunkymonkey 16:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Tand Soo Do. Tulkolahten 16:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I see nothing to meet WP:BIO, and there really isn't anything to merge. Yanksox 02:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Absolutely non-notable. Wavy G 02:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Suicidal Lemmings

The Suicidal Lemmings (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Violates WP:AUTO, creator was Thepinksuicidallemming (talk • contribs). Thegreensuicidallemming (talk • contribs) has also edited the page. 27 ghits. Contested prod. MER-C 08:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The editors seem to be the same person. - jlao ⁰⁴ 10:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Seems to be non-notable, as almost non of the Google hits are referring to this exact band. The only link is a self-reference on blogspot --¿Exir?¡Kamalabadi! 11:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, non-notable --Arnzy (talk · contribs) 22:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable group; vain entry based on creators/editors. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Have seen them perform, but no where near notable enough for their own entry. 04:57, 8 November 2006 (GMT)

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The result was keep. — CharlotteWebb 11:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zook (band)

No evidence provided to meet WP:MUSIC. Nothing particularly reliable on Google. Contested prod. MER-C 08:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Three notable members; Jukka Jylli and Sami Kuoppamäki (both Kingston Wall), Rocka Merilahti (Michael Monroe, Remu Aaltonen). What could possibly be more reliable source than Helsingin Sanomat? [49]. Also covered on MTV3 [50]. Radio play on Radio Helsinki. [51] Their album charted in Finnish Top-40 at 27. (03/2006) and 30. (04/2006) [52] [53]. Prolog 10:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep - Passes WP:Music for the following:

"Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable."

This criteria is satisfied per the reasons given by Prolog. -bobby 14:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I feel the "contains at least one member" clause is a somewhat unfortunate one. If Jukka Jylli one day plays his guitar to his cat a few minutes and calls it The Feline Experience it immediately passes the notability guidelines. And the cat can then transmit the notability to others. I don't think there is a "fame is virally transmitted to anything that a barely notable person touches" clause anywhere else on Wikipedia. Weregerbil 16:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Reply - Your cat case would of course require extra attention (although, I find the idea of a cat musician notable in its own right). In the more general case (such as for Zook) we are talking about a widely recognized band (ie. not a few guys sitting by themselves messing around with a guitar) composed of three individuals who used to play in notable bands. Thus, I feel the criterion I cite is well applied in this instance. -bobby 16:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Meow! You are now notable :-) Re "not a few guys messing with a guitar": if the new band itself is notable due to what it does then it should be notable. Not by association with someone who was once in a band that had a member whose earlier band made two records on a "major" (heh) record label (the way "infectious notability" now works) (and I don't mean Zook/Kingston Wall is like that; I mean in general). If Zook itself makes records, makes headlines, tours widely, then it would be notable. But if it plays a few gigs in a pub and then disbands, I don't think it would be notable regardless of who is in it. But "infectious notability" does make such a band notable, as well as any of its otherwise non-notable members. There are bands and musicians like that in Wikipedia. Which I think is not good for quality. </rambling_in_the_wrong_place>. Weregerbil 18:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. They meet WP:MUSIC by having an album chart in Finland. The notable members adds to their claim. Capitalistroadster 05:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Meets at least two criteria's of WP:MUSIC as mentioned by the above users, and therefore passes for me. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Pgk (talk • contribs) speedily deleted "Ulnis" (a1 - see WP:CSD)

[edit] Ulnis

Ulnis (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Unless I'm misssing something the text reads like nonesense Malcolma 09:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete due to lack of context. So tagged. MER-C 09:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. ¿Exir?¡Kamalabadi! 06:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rollen Stewart

Rollen Stewart (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Not Notable & Fails WP:BIO DXRAW 09:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - subject of a documentary. MER-C 09:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Very notable. Most of the western world is familiar with his image^{[citation needed]} (if not necessarily his name) from countless TV appearances. And when he turned to crime, he made national news. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per MER-C and Andrew. I actually do know his name, and I was honestly quite surprised to see him at AfD. -- Kicking222 13:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above. As stated I don't know the name but I sure as heck new wh the article was about anyway. -- wtfunkymonkey 16:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - Subject is a notable cultural icon, and this proposal is merely part of a larger campaign to Wikistalk and harass yours truly by attacking edits and articles in my contrib history. - Chadbryant 01:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - Rollen Stewart = 199,000 hits on google. DXRAW 01:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Thank you for demonstrating that your proposal is flawed and should not be seriously considered. - Chadbryant 02:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Please read WP:GOOGLE. Also Chadbryant i feel that your comments are borderline WP:NPA.

• Keep How is this guy not notable? He was a pop-culture phenomenon with a huge list of references in reliable press (for those that don't know, he was the rainbow wig guy with the John 3:15 signs). Way, Way, Way over the notability baseline. --Jayron32 06:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I added as references 5 articles about him in People Weekly and the New York Times. Along with the documentary movie, the Straight Dope articles, and literally hundreds of TV appearances worldwide, this makes him The Very Model Of A Notable Eccentric. I always thought it was a bunch of different kooks with the rainbow wig and the John 3:16 banner on TV coverage of ball games. Has anyone taken up the chore since this guy's incarceration? Edison 20:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the commenters above. Yamaguchi先生 06:11, 9 November 2006

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The result was no consensus. --Coredesat 19:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rumours and conspiracy theories about the July 2005 London bombings

Rumours and conspiracy theories about the July 2005 London bombings (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

• Delete a compilation of Original research and sources that fail WP:RS by a wide margin, for example citing Jeff Rense and Alex Jones (radio). Legitimate sources are cited, however, they do not give support to what is being said. The page goes beyond being unencyclopedic; its just more conspiracycruft. Brimba 09:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep better collect this crap in the article about the conspiracy theories than to spoil the main article. The rumors and theories are notable by themselves Alex Bakharev 09:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This is definitely NOT original research. --¿Exir?¡Kamalabadi! 11:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep. We have similar pages on other such conspiracies, and at the very least it keeps the main article on the bombings clear of this stuff, as Bakharev suggests. It doesn't appear to be OR - would prefer more solid references and external links, but with such subject matter that may be difficult to obtain. Grutness...wha? 13:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep :: This article brings togatehr in one place what would otherwise be spread across several articles, each documenting one rumour accoridng to its source. -- Simon Cursitor
• Delete - There are some RS sources, but lots of prisonplanet and rense sources. NN. - Crockspot 14:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment as above, better to keep this garbage in one article rather than incorporate it into the main. Suggest sources that do not meet WP:V and WP:RS, which appear to be most of them at this point, be deleted. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, heavily revise, and suggest a less painful article title.--Rosicrucian 15:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom and Crockspot. Article is heavily dependent on unreliable sources. Bwithh 19:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unencylcopedic per nom Tbeatty 19:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep This article is not claiming these rumors are true; it’s just documenting the rumor. Also this article was on AFD before and was voted keep; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conspiracy Theories about the July 2005 London bombings.
• Keep. We have similar articles for other terrorism-related conspiracies... we should always try to present all sides of a debate, no matter how crappy they are. --- RockMFR 04:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It is well referenced. The information should be kept. However, the disposal of this information in this specific article is up for question. The article name is SO unweildy that it seems to demand a move or a merge. --Jayron32 05:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Seems to be in line with WP:FRINGE. JASpencer 16:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There are 2 articles dealing with the actual setting off of bombs by four men. A list of rumors with no citations to show they exist beyond the mind of the editor who inserted them in the article, is not encyclopedic. If there were a specific rumor which was reported, say, in the New York Times and the Times of London and covered on the BBC that provided a coherent alternative explanation for the bombs going off, that rumor, even if not proven true, might be worthy of an article. This collection of vague claims isn't. Edison 20:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)\
• Delete per nom. Fails to cite to reliable sources meeting Wikipedia’s requirements under WP:RS, and is mostly original research violating WP:NOR. Further, Wikipedia prohibits “Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position”. This article is a cruft-swamp-magnet. Morton Devonshire^Yo 20:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable conspiracy theories; don't belong in main article.-csloat 00:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Based on other similar articles and the past deletion discussion, Wikipedia does have a place for such articles. The reason I say weak is because of the sources used in the article. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It needs re-working and reliable sourcing, but as said above there is precedent for articles such as this. Robovski 01:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I have seen a few similar articles - none of them seem very good. I'm not convinced that a collection of "rumours and conspiracy theories" is inherently notable and I agree with Morton's assessment of the article. GabrielF 22:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge. I have added the merge suggestion tags. W.marsh 20:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wolfe+585, Senior

Wolfe+585, Senior (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Seems to ba a hoax to me. I found a source stating that the Guiness Book 1978 indeed had an entry for this person, but nothing else. There was a previous discussion for this article under an other name, the result was Delete. -- lucasbfr ^talk 18:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into List of unusual personal names Z388 18:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and do not merge unless verified. Kusma (討論) 21:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Incomplete nomination, listed now. Kusma (討論) 10:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletions. -- Kusma (討論) 10:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge into List of unusual personal names if verified. IA (talk) 10:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• It's not unverifiable. 20 seconds with Google Books turns up the exact page number in the 1981 edition of GBWR that this can be found on. Uncle G 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I believe that he had an entry in the Guinness books for a couple of years. I do not believe that this entry is truw, as so many things about it are suspsicious: a German person with many non-German first names, a Lastnamemostofwhichmakessomekindofsenseingermanbuttwichisingramerspelingstuffnotgermanthengoescompletelyofftopicaddingsomeunrelatedwordsnamesfreedomattackthroughenemieswhichtwelfthousandyearsbeforefirstmanthatspaceshipused ... it goes on for a bit more. The "first man with spaceship" bit is really, really odd, and that this was dropped from the Guinness book serves to me as a verification that it is not true. Kusma (討論) 12:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • The correct merge target if we do merge is in my opinion Fictitious entry, although we'd need to verify whether it is true or not for that as well. All we know for sure is that he was listed in the GBWR and is no longer listed there. Kusma (討論) 12:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • You are presenting a choice of trusting either the Guinness Book of World Records, with a known reputation and authorship, which could have dropped this entry for several reasons, or trusting the personal opinion, that this name is suspect, of a pseudonymous Wikipedia editor, based upon xyr own analysis and unsupported by any sources at all. And even the logic of that personal opinion is shaky. There's no requirement that a name that someone contrives in order to achieve a world record make grammatical sense in German, or that German people have solely German given names. Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research says that we should side with the GBWR until other sources are written, fact checked, and published. Uncle G 15:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I suggest we trust teh Guinness Book of World Records, whose newer editions do not list this person anymore. Kusma (討論) 16:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
        • The guiness book of records drops records and introduces new ones each year (or else why would people have an incentive to buy new copies?). With a few exceptions, records such as this will repeat for a few years and then leave for a new one. Given that they've never retracted the statement, I don't see why that shouldn't be considered a reliable source.
        • Only if the Guinness Book removed Mr. Wolfe+585 for someone with a shorter or equal-length name would that removal concern me as to his verifiability. If they dropped him in favor of someone with a longer name, that would just mean his record was broken. And if they dropped the category entirely, that could just mean that they thought the category was no longer useful because someone could adopt a contrived name merely for the purpose of trying to get listed in the book, as opposed for wanting to use the name in his actual life -- which may, in fact, have been the case for Mr. Wolfe+585. --Metropolitan90 22:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to List of unusual personal names. I do remember him having an entry in the Guinness Book of World Records. Per Uncle G, my skepticism that this was actually his name does not make him unverifiable. --Metropolitan90 15:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • We should perhaps edit the article down to verifiable facts: what appeared in which editions of the GBWR. Strangely enough, these few editions of the GBWR seem to be the only existing source, like for a classic Nihilartikel. But probably we'll have to live with an article that is not true just because it appears to be verifiable. Kusma (討論) 16:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Descending into either the completely unverified or the potentially verifiable, depending on how good your library is and how good this random internet posting is: The top entry at this discussion (the website link does not work and leads to strange places) claims that indeed some guy in Philadelphia made up a name similar to this. It appears to have not been his birth name. Kusma (討論) 16:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep this appears to be notable, even if we have to change the wording to suggest that there is some doubt over the validity of the term. Robdurbar 19:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to List of unusual personal names. Even if it is verifiable, that doesn't mean that it deserves its own article. Xeinart 02:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as descibed above. Not notable enough for its own article. This guy has done NOTHING else notable than have a unique name. The name itself is notable, but only in the context of the above list. --Jayron32 05:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Believe it or not, I want to see a merge as well. It's hard for me to write this, since this was my very first contribution to Wikipedia. But if there is a site more relevant than that for purposes of Wolfe+585, Senior, then go ahead. I will make two observations, though:
  • The first 35 letters of the name (Wolfeschlegelsteinhausenbergerdorff) do appear to be authentic.
  • Someone out there was reading my sandbox entries! Lucasbfr, I hope you long for Buddy Wayne, BooTeasha, the Boogerbergers and the rest as much as I do.–Desmond Hobson 16:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable. Just because Guinness was lame enough to include this in their book doesn't mean this should be in an encyclopedia. Anyone can change their name to have a thousand letters (or a million letters). --- RockMFR 04:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autodeology

Autodeology (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

• Delete: Sounds made up. Zero Google hits. De-prodded by an IP with no explanation. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. MER-C 11:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete scores the coveted zero Ghit benchmark for utter unverifiability. Guy 14:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete religioncruft. Danny Lilithborne 19:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, it's not even cruft! --humblefool® 20:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per the nominator. Yamaguchi先生 06:11, 9 November 2006

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The result was keep. – Avi 22:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Baseball Online

Ultimate Baseball Online (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Taggedand deleted as CSD G4 (repost) following Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ultimate Baseball Online but the content is substantially different from the original, which sucked royally. It remains to be seen whether this is genuinely significant per WP:WEB, an issue not really addressed before as the article as originally deleted was blatant vanispamcruftisement. Over to you... Guy 12:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - makes an assertion as to why it is notable. Not sure if it is or not but at least the article attempts it. Chris Kreider 14:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Assertions of notability only protect the article from speedy deletion. It needs proof if it's to be kept. ColourBurst 17:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Per my comments in the deletion review. - Hahnchen 17:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the first time this article was up for AFD, the content was ripped wholesale from ad copy. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 20:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• But that does not speak to the significance of the subject or its coverage in reliable secondary sources, does it? So what of this article? Guy 22:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• The bar for inclusion of video game articles is generally pretty low, this game's unique multiplayer setup alone makes it more prominent than most entries in Category:Nintendo Entertainment System games. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 19:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. PresN 14:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete (See below for new decision)- Only claim to notability that I can see is that it's the only game of it's kind. But the 'unique' arguement is a very weak one. I'm the only one of me, where's my article? As this article stands, it only has the official website as reference. It's gotta go. The Kinslayer 14:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - If you see the deletion review mentioned above. This game does have some links on Google News. - Hahnchen 15:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I was making my judgement based an the article we are discussing, not what other people have said previously. No mention of Google news in the article. The Kinslayer 15:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete It is certainly a unique game concept, but that does not nesscarily make it notable. Unless mainstream video gaming or sports sources have commented on the game, it does not pass keeping it for me. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Someone has dumped several reliable sources into the external links section, although these have not been properly integrated with the article. - Hahnchen 16:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - Those news stories will do nicely for notability! Changing to weak keep. The fact that it's a free online broswer-based MMO holds me back from being more emphatic about keeping it. The Kinslayer 16:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - It's not browser-based. Here are links to game profile pages for Ultimate Baseball Online at Gamespot and IGN (both credible gaming websites): http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sports/ultimatebaseballonline2006/index.html?q=Ultimate%20Baseball%20Online

http://pc.ign.com/objects/822/822506.html

• • • Good point, I've corrected my statement to reflect that! The Kinslayer 11:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep, as somebody has actually merged and two of those arguing for deletion don't appear to be against this. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 22:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agreements to mediate

This and several other articles (listed below) are kind of a how-to guide for Mediation in Australia, in violation of WP:NOT, even though they have sources. Any useful information should be added to the general article. I speedied all of these once, and they have been recreated; let's get a consensus. NawlinWiki 04:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Also included:

• Culture and mediation
• Native Title mediation
• Mediation clauses

• Delete or at least merge to Mediation, I saw these last night AEDST and dropped a polite note on the author's talk page suggesting they consider expanding existing articles as opposed to creating an article on every aspect of mediation. Elomis 08:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Your argument about expanding articles does not fit with a "bolded deletion statement", it fits with a merge and redirect argument. Is the topic of mediation in australia covered at current? and why should it not be in a single new article on the topic. Afterall, they have put in enough information for a decent length article. Ansell 23:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all as per nom. There have been several deletion discussions in the last few days on other articles with Mediation in the title, all having extracts from the same DIY guide. The time to mediate has passed - delete the lot. Emeraude 18:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all because they all have extracts from one totally verifiable reference is not an official reason for deletion. There are more than just the one "DIY" reference. Ansell 23:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Canley 23:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• 'Merge all to Mediation to get an Australian perspective. They do have references, after all. Where information is unverified, delete it. JROBBO 05:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Mediation is already 56K long, well above a typical article length. I also think you mean where information is "unverifiable" as opposed to "unverified". Ansell 23:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Make up a new article on Mediation practices in Australia or similar title. There are more than enough references currently. I would do the merging right now but there are warnings about horrible GFDL difficulties if I do. Ansell 23:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge into new article for all as per Ansell. (Mediation in Australia). Mediation article is far too long for this much more cotntent. —Pengo ^{talk · contribs} 12:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, KrakatoaKatie 12:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge and cleanup into new article per Ansell, seems to be from a australian perspective --Arnzy (talk · contribs) 22:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Okay, I have a few people agreeing with a merge, even after the relisting... Would I have support to do the merging before this thing officially ends a second period here? Ansell 01:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - yes from me. JROBBO 08:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Okay, I will do copy and paste merges to Mediation in Australia, and redirect the remaining articles to it. I don't see how else I can keep with the GFDL when multiple contributions histories are involved. Ansell 08:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Banana Shots

The Banana Shots (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

super NN team from "Division 1 of the Thursday Night 6 a side league" - crz crztalk 12:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 14:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, totally NN ChrisTheDude 14:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, eagearly waiting for articles about teams at the University of Pisa intramural football league. --Angelo 15:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. – Elisson • T • C • 15:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Daemonic Kangaroo 17:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - stretching my mind to think of any football team less notable than this one. - fchd 21:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, Ok, it’s the user’s first edit to wikipedia and most first users don’t read the guidelines and policies, I know I didn’t at first. He’s assumed that wikipedia allows any articles and I think we should assumed good faith. We all make mistakes; I know that I did something similar when I first joined wikipedia so I urge the user not to be disheartened by his article being deleted. I also urge users not to make sarcastic comments as I’ve seen before on such issues and to be understanding. Anyhow, it’s a none notable 6-a-side team, thus it has to be deleted. It may be a good idea to speedy delete as it obviously fills the criteria and it will make it less pain free for all involve. Englishrose 23:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Qwghlm 09:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per norm. м info 23:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Rakuten06 18:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Will recreate as a redirect to emoticon. Never mind. --Coredesat 19:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gmail Talk emoticons

Gmail Talk emoticons (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

It's a list. Of Google Talk emoticons. I don't know if it should be merged or just deleted. _JD^talk 12:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge what's important (which is basically that Gmail Talk uses animated emoticons). This list should be sourced and what is relevant should be merged into Gmail#Talk_integration. Doing a simple google search for "gmail emoticons" brought up several lists very similar to this one. Apparently, Google itself released a list of the emoticons. Gmail's moving emoticons don't merit an article of their own - they're just one relatively small feature in the notable webmail server. Srose (talk) 12:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete sub-trivial original research. Guy 14:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and this is definitely indiscriminate, unencyclopedic information. There are a lot of interesting things regarding Google Talk that are, in fact, discussed on Google Talk; this is just trivial information that does not apply to the article in terms of importance, history, technical information, or other information important to Google Talk. – Mipadi 14:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Smileycruft.--Húsönd 18:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Keep Important internet thingy. --172.148.158.110 18:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The fact that Google Talk supports emoticons might be worth mentioning (it's probably mentioned already, though). The specific list, though, doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding of Google Talk - particularly as most of these are pretty standard, and I expect the list is available from within the client. As a side note, there isn't even any such thing as an "animated png" (at least, not supported in any common browser). Zetawoof^(ζ) 20:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. How did this make it all the way to Afd? v_v --- RockMFR 04:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Listcruft. We are not a collection of such things. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete, just a big advert. Guy 13:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deira Guest House

Deira Guest House (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Just a big advert Flup 13:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was redirect. W.marsh 21:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Henry Lee

Philip Henry Lee (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Article makes no claim of notability, apart from being spouse of someone notable, and offspring of someone midly notable without Wikipedia entry. Searhc engine comes up with next to nothing too. These are the only tools I personally have for any AFD debates. --Dangherous 13:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Dangherous 13:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• I find that an unwise AfD tool criteria when researching historic figures that were alive long before google or yahoo existed. --Oakshade 22:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep The google test (or yahoo test as it may be) is pretty unreliable when it comes to 19th century rector's sons. There may be some information out there relating to the divorce, which sounds rather notable for the period. Dina 21:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Adelaide Neilson. T Rex | talk 23:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Adelaide Neilson. As this articles stands, this person does not pass WP:BIO. Unless the article is expanded to explain notability beyond relationships, this should be redirected. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, unless notability is explained. Being spouse of somebody famous doesn't make one a deserving candidate for an article or redirect. utcursch | talk 13:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Sorry, but this article provides no reason for it to be kept.delete.nascarfan1 18:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zingamama

Zingamama (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

NN neologism Palfrey 13:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Not notable. Page created by new user who has generally only contributed nonsense and vandalism. Zaian 13:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Obscure neologism.--Húsönd 18:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Do not Delete This is a valid entry - however should you still vehemently dispute its being due to your lack of musical knowledge (read: real musical knowledge) then perhaps it should be merged into a larger 'modern choral technique' page or similar. - Waffenkartoffel (talk • contribs)

Zingamama gets only 10 google hits. When your contributions consist of extreme racism, trivial references to unknown people, and bad spelling, other people might not take your opinion on their musical knowledge seriously. Zaian 15:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete You people arent worth the effort. Go ahead and delete it. Waffenkartoffel (talk • contribs)*

• Do Not Delete This is a warmup that does wonders for your singing and we often use it. However, I do agree that the writer of this article has limited musical knowledge. You can't argue with that, it is a true zingamama (refering to zingamama being used as an exclamation following a great insult, shutdown, comeback or similar). This article could be improved to become a great entry in the glorious pages of Wikipedia if the article were to be extended to cover all meanings of zingamama. Distant Shores 03:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Do not Delete this entry This article is 100% legitimate and I have used it with many choirs over the years. Many a time have I heard the phrase used as described above —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.168.75.175 (talk • contribs) November 9, 2006.

• Delete neologism, not notable, definetly not verifiable(and I have my doubts it is even real), doubious origins. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 20:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chili Guy

Chili Guy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

non-notable (his real name isn't even known, fails Google test, doesn't meet minimum standards as laid out in WP:BIO, etc.) Caliga10 13:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete or Speedy radio-show gag character. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Can't do a speedy; I tried to prod the article and there were objections (see the article talk page).--Caliga10 16:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Per star and nom. Chris Kreider 18:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete This man, whoever he might have been, was interviewed, one time, on the radio. Spectacularly fails WP:BIO. Shimeru 09:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No known name, not a notable person, no Google hits... need I say more? Themikeg 04:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Marcus1234 11:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete If you guys are this obssessed with closing it down, then fine go ahead. Maximum 101 18:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Redirect. Not notable enough for his own article. -bobby 15:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Panelas

Non-notable person. In my opinion, it possibly goes under CSD A7. Google returned other Bill Panelas. Imoeng 13:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Throttle (magazine), nothing to merge. I suggest the same be done to Peter Blake (editor) as well. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 21:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autonomous work group

Is has been suggested that this is just a phrase. Mike 14:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep I wanted to refer to an article on automous work groups. I understood it to be a business/industry concept in regular use in the 1980s-1990s. Apart from hearing the name quite a few times I've no knowledge of the term. I created a stub but someone else asked to delete, so I thought I'd put it up for debate

PS. I've used a different version of the AfD template:AfDU --Mike 14:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Uncle G has added a lot more to the entry, so I'm now changing my vote, I think it is reasonable to expect an entry under this heading so I'm changing from a weak keep to definite keep!

--Mike 19:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment - Some of the folks in my office were involved with companies using autonomous work groups during the 90s. However, from their descriptions, I am not sure that we need anything more than a dictionary definition to wholly cover the topic. Since I was still in middle school when the business practice went by the wayside, I abstain from voting and defer to my elders. :) -bobby 15:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It is really just a dictionary entry. Emeraude 18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

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 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, KrakatoaKatie 13:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Strong Keep - This is a real concept. The article needs some cleanup, i will see what I can do. I have studied this concept in classes. It is fascinating, and if i knew nothing about it and wanted some information on it, i would def come to Wikipedia. Losing this article would be a loss to wikipedia. Chris Kreider 14:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. --Dangherous 17:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Tullaghmurray Lass

The Tullaghmurray Lass (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Page is about a boat which sank off the shores of Northern Ireland in 2002 and 3 members of its crew, all of the same family, died as a result. This seems to me as borderline notable. But maybe for Northern Irelanders there is something historic and symbolic or otherwise notable about it. I wouldn't know, am not from N.I. --Dangherous 14:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Dangherous 14:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep for the moment; I think a merge would be better, but I can't think of anywhere to where it could be merged! HamishMacBeth 17:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Undecided - leaning towards weak delete. Certainly the event got plenty of attention when it happened, and as such there are a plethora of news clippings written about it. On the flip side, sad as the sinking was, 3 victims is not that many and the vessel was not large enough to have significant enviornmental impact. I'm going to see what happens with this article over the next few days before making up my mind. In the meantime, I've added the boat to the list of Irish shipwrecks with the hope that more people will see the article and it's proposed deletion. →bobby← 17:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No claim made of encyclopedic notability. Media coverage does not automatically equal encyclopedic notability. Wikipedia is not a news report database or a memorial archive.Bwithh 19:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, I've added a few references and more detail and feel that notability is clearly established here. It was an event where three people died, from the same family, and with the same name. It was covered in multiple local and national publications as well as the NI Assembly. I've also added detail on the wider issue of the safety of the Kilkeel/Ardglass fleet. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• AFD retracted, if something is mentioned in the NI Assembly, and has all this reports on it, it's notable. --Dangherous 17:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GTVA Colossus

GTVA Colossus (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Technically not a G4, though this was just deleted a couple days ago through AFD, here. Same reason for this nom (as an individual video game unit). Wickethewok 14:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - I didn't see the original article so I don't know what has changed, but the topic still is not notable per the reasons given in the previous AfD. -bobby 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 03:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Per the AfD wicket links to. Not sure why this articles still here, was re-created after deletion or did it slip through un-noticed? The Kinslayer 10:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Should really have been speedy deleted (merely a technicality that it had to go here). --- RockMFR 23:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 14:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of rivers that flow north

List of rivers that flow north (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Listcruft. There are no corresponding lists for south, west and east, and the criterion is fairly silly. This list is a) unmaintainable b) has a potential of growing indefinitely c) sourced from a defunct geocities site. Duja^► 15:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as nominator. Duja^► 15:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Per nom. Chris Kreider 16:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup or Categorize - There are very few rivers in the world that flow Northward. A list or category for them is useful as a river flowing North is a notable detail. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 16:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • With due respect, "rarity of northward rivers" sounds like an urban myth to me. Might be true for U.S. due to configuration of the relief, but certainly not true worldwide. Duja^► 16:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
    • It probably springs from things like this. See also this article, this article, and this article. One can find a lot of repetitions on the World Wide Web of the idea that "most rivers flow south". Uncle G 19:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I disagree with the major points of the nomination. The same arguments can be made for every entry under the Lists of Rivers category. Just as there is no list of S, E, or W rivers there are no lists of rivers in Italy or a list of places without rivers. Honestly, in my opinion, it is more interesting to see a list of north-bound rivers than it is to see a list of rivers in Guam. I do, however, agree that there needs to be some sources cited here. -- wtfunkymonkey 16:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Unmaintainable, arbitrary list. Most rivers flow north in some occasions during their path. Rhine for instance is included in this list, although it flows in all directions and has its mouth westwards. This list seems like a bad idea.--Húsönd 18:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Rivers and geography are important topics and something like this could appear in an almanac or encyclopedia. --172.148.158.110 18:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Note This was 172.148.158.110's first edit on Wikipedia.--Húsönd 18:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Additional Note Anon user also has a predilection of placing nonsense votes. Danny Lilithborne 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• KeepThis is a topic discussed in college sciences classes. The listing may be beneficial to that end. CraigMonroe 19:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I can walk out my back door and see two small creeks that flow in all four directions as they twist. Totally useless in current form. --humblefool® 20:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Devil's river and trim considerably to allow only rivers for which the general course is away from the equator, and to only include rivers of substantial size (note that the Devil's river article mentions that it is generally only larger rivers that conform to this phenomenon). Note that south-flowing rivers are the odd ones in the Southern Hemisphere, for the reasons outlines in the Devil's river article. Grutness...wha? 23:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • reply north flowing northern hemisphere rivers are not that rare. Many major rivers in Europe and Asia flow mostly north (Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Volga, Ob, etc. etc.). Rivers flow downhill, not in any one cardinal direction.
    • But the misconception that they are rare is common. I strongly suspect that the motivation behind this article is the very same question that you can find asked in the sources that I cited above: "Please name 3 rivers that flow north.". So one issue to address is: How can Wikipedia best help encyclopaedia readers to combat this particular misconception about the direction of flow of rivers? Obviously one idea that editors had was to construct a raw list of rivers that flow north so that they could say to those people (North Americans and otherwise) who assert that it's rare for a river to flow north: "Look at this lengthy list of rivers that flow north. That clearly demonstrates that your assertion is wrong." Incorporating the point that rivers flow downhill (which one can source from what I cited above) into an overall discussion that doesn't just present a raw list of rivers but that includes analysis and explanation as well, as per Grutness, is good idea. Uncle G 10:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. North flowing rivers are not that rare. The length of the article testifies to that. The list however could be even longer and is in fact unlikely ever to be complete. For example, it has hardly started with Australia and yet more water flows into Australia's northern waters than anywhere else to the south. How do you define a "river" as opposed to a stream, a creek, etc. --Bduke 01:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as unmaintainable meshach 04:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a non-notable list of rivers. The primary cardinal direction of a river's flow is neither notable by itself, nor as part of a listing. I am certain that if we extended this down to a full study of all rivers in the world, we would find that 25% (or an insiginificant statistical difference from 25%) of all rivers flow any one of the 4 cardinal directions. A restatement of a predictable stastistic is hardly something worth building lists on. --Jayron32 05:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not particularily useful, rivers flow in all sorts of directions. I agree with Jayron. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Sjakkalle; any river that meanders could be included if one of its twists and turns heads North(ish). Carlossuarez46 19:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as indiscriminate, uninformative, and way too large, and I've put a disputed tag on the Devil's river article, since that presents this myth as fact. Fram 10:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, rivers that flow to the north are clearly the work of evil and should not be discussed. Everyone can see that the South is on the bottom of a map and is thus downhill --Robdurbar 09:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Non notable subject, why not rivers that have a Q in their title, or rivers that twist around alot. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - maybe a list of rivers that flow away from the equator would be notable, but I'd want sourcing in Devil's river first. -- nae'blis 01:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Imperial Conflict

Imperial Conflict (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non notable MMORPG. Apart from the awards, which are issued monthly by the members (currently 1737) of the website and are thus hardly notable or major, there are no external sources given, even though the article exists for over a year now (so plenty of time). A free game like there are many free games (in terms of verifiability and mainstream attention), fails WP:WEB, WP:V, and WP:CORP (for products). Fram 16:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 03:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Alan Au 08:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Shimeru 09:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - (Sarcasm) Oh a free massively multiplayer sci-fi conquer the universe game. That's so original it can stand on its own without needing to establish notability. (End sarcasm) Seriously though, with the amount of free massively multiplayer sci-fi conquer the universe games out there, this would need to be something truly exceptional to stay here. And there is nothing available to make think it's ever gonna become that notable. The Kinslayer 10:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --ManiF 08:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 00:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Backdraft (drink)

Backdraft (drink) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

PROD removed without comment by anon. Wikipedia is not a book of recipes, least of all dangerous-sounding ones without sources. Delete. —Angr 16:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep if Verifiable - Wikipedia is home to many drink related articles (see here). Most of these contain some amount of instruction as to how the drink is meant to be mixed. In my mind, the biggest issue with this current article is verification. If we can get some references that cite instances of this drink being prepared (my bartender's guide doesn't have a beverage by this name, although it does contain several other flaming drinks) I see no reason to delete the article. I would also remind the community that Wikipedia is not censored. Thus, the fact that a subject is dangerous does not negate it's candidacy. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Gun would qualify for deletion, as would AIDS. -bobby 17:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• This seems to exist, per [54]. Needs some TLC, though. Keep. --humblefool® 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Transwiki to the bartending book, if they want it. Otherwise delete. I don't see anything about the social context of the drink that makes it appropriate for this project, only a recipe and Humblefool's reference to an alternate recipe. There has to be more than just a recipe or two. Is this a famous person's favorite drink? Has this been featured in a significant work of fiction? Has this drink been explicitly banned or been found uniquely responsible for a series of fatalities? Have there been legal fights about trade secrets or copyright regarding the preparation of this drink? These are the kinds of things that make what are otherwise just recipes appropriate topics here. Unfocused 22:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• This is a rather new entry, and as such is in it's infancy. As for being verifiable, a quick google search will show that myspace contains multiple movies of this. As the author of most of this entry, I just have not had time to upload pictures and/or movies of this drink being made and consumed. While the drink has not been banned (that I know of) it is quite popular here in Geneva Switzerland, and has been added to at least two menus that I know of. Given time, this will be documented and added to the wiki page. Keep. Saukeye 10:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This seems to be a legit enough article, it just needs a bit of work. Bakilas 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of English songs whose title includes the name of a fictional place

List of English songs whose title includes the name of a fictional place (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete. What constitutes a fictional place is too ambiguous. This list is as unmaintanable as a List of fictional places. --Vossanova ^o< 16:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - what comes next, a list of enlgish songs by russian native performers about individuals who wear sunglasses? These lists keep growing! Chris Kreider 18:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Keep You can never have too many lists . . .--172.148.158.110 18:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment You have to register and log-on in order to participate in XfD discussions. Anonymous opinions are not counted. (aeropagitica) 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment there is no such requirement. This is an open discussion. It is up to the closing admin to decide how much weight to give each vote, not any one editor. I would speculate that the closing admin will give the above anon vote next to zero consideration, but please do not make assertions of policy where none exists. --Jayron32 05:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Delete Yes you can (and please ignore that illogical anonymous non-vote). Danny Lilithborne 19:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Whack the list with the delete stick, hard. Even were this maintanable, who CARES about every song with a fictional place in the title? -Amarkov ^babble 23:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information--TBCΦtalk? 00:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• weak keep and move Name of article is unweildy. But the list has some potential if reorganized and renamed. Perhaps "List of songs by place names" or some such (thus, we can collect songs that have been written about the same place). Still, the article is too unweildy as it is. I think the general gist of this list is OK, even if the specifics here are a little off. Thus the "weak" in my keep. --Jayron32 05:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete too POV: where are all the songs about heaven and hell? those are fictious places, too. Carlossuarez46 19:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - indiscriminate list meet WP:NOT. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Does an opinion of someone who threatens us with stick count? Then I could bring in some stuff too, you know. -DePiep 17:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: What threat? I fail to see any personal attacks here. --Vossanova ^o< 17:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Worst of the listcruft, why would anyone need this? No encyclopedic value, just indiscrimate collection of information. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I've seen worse list pages. Pedia-I ^{Project Jesus} 18:57, April 8, 2007 (UTC)

Point? -Amarkov ^babble 18:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy keep. Clearly meets WP:BIO, and the nominator doesn't even support deletion. If you want to discuss notability in general, please use the talk page. --Wafulz 18:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Andrew Gibson

Andrew Gibson (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Is this curler notable enough? I think so, but I wanted to see what the people think. Weak keep at the moment. --Nlu (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong, somewhat obvious keep Maybe I'm biased because I love curling, but anyone who's won a medal at the yearly world championships of a pretty big sport is certainly notable per WP:BIO, as Gibson is very clearly a sportsperson who has played at the highest competitive level of his sport. -- Kicking222 17:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep I'm no expert on curling but by his credentials he seems to be reasonably notable in the curling world. HamishMacBeth 17:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - Clearly satisfies athletic criteria for WP:Bio. → bobby← 17:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as I think there is ample evidence he meets WP:BIO as an athlete.--Isotope23 17:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - won medal at a world championship for his sport -- Whpq 17:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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• keep He has won awards in field, so in the world of curling, he is indeed notable.NASCARfan1 18:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC

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The result was delete. Will recreate as a redirect to hard water. --Coredesat 19:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HardWater

HardWater (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Contested prod. Unreferenced, notability not established. Khatru2 17:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - article is a cut and paste job straight off this site, so likely a copyvio as well. -- Whpq 17:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Per Whpq. Chris Kreider 18:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to Hard Water as if nothing else, the use of a changelog tends to make me think this thing isn't well developed. Mister.Manticore 18:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete; apart from weight of numbers, the points made about the lack of definition and sourcing are persuasive. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 22:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of French surnames

List of French surnames (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Indiscriminate collection of information Ccady 17:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Useful reference, not all lists are inherently an indiscriminate collection of information. See List of Jewish surnames.--Húsönd 18:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Changed to Neutral per Jayron32.--Húsönd 13:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I agree, this is a helpful refeence guide and most lists are worth keeping. --152.163.100.73 18:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Calling something an indiscriminate collection of information does not make it so. -Amarkov ^babble 23:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, this is a pointless list. WP:NOT indiscriminate collection of information meshach 04:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And how is it pointless? -Amarkov ^babble 04:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Where is List of Spanish Surnames, List of English Surnames, or List of English Surnames? This list could be endless meshach 05:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Alternative question: Where is List of Jewish surnames? Oh wait, there it is. -Amarkov ^babble 15:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• delete I was ready to vote "keep" on this one, but the more I looked at it, the more I realized there were problems(NOTE: THE OTHER SURNAME ARTICLES HAVE THESE SAME PROBLEMS):

1. Original Research: Where are the references to back up that these are French surnames? What makes a French surname? Surnames of people in France? How long does a surname have to be in France to be considered French? What about French surnames that appear in other nations? What about Franchified names that originated in other tongues? What about French surnames that have been translated to other tongues? Former territories of France that are now parts of other nations? Names that sound french but have no connection to France? You see the problem here? We have no way of defining the list to any satisfaction.
2. The articles it links to make no mention of the list itself. For example, the first name Alphonse redirects to a list of kings named Alphonso (first name, not surname!). If the subject of the list isn't notable within the articles it lists, why is it here?
3. Unweildy and huge. There are probably THOUSANDS of french surnames, maybe TENS OF THOUSANDS or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. It is impossible that this list can justify including some over others, and it cannot have all of them.
4. triviality: Notable lists should be of notable things. This is no more notable than a telephone directory. Telephone directories are VERY useful. I use one almost every day. No need to put one into a wikipedia article, however.

Any other additions to this? I think that presents a pretty comprehensive deletion case. --Jayron32 06:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, unsourced list, no clear criteria, full of useless links like the one to Ferry. Kusma (討論) 11:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I think a list like this is indeed a good idea and handy, but I agree that it should be sourced and I would think that a quick web search on French surnames would turn up responses that could be cited. Good bye and Happy Thanksgiving! --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 13:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete WP:NOT for indiscriminate lists or original research. Who says the names are French and where did they say it ? List of surnames which may have been borne by people who might be French describes content and problem. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Lacks meaningful criteria, resulting in original research, and has the potential to be wildly under-inclusive, making it less useful. --TheOtherBob 22:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. Open-ended list, and indiscriminate. Ohconfucius 04:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Jayron32. Korg (talk) 00:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and source - lack of sourcing (as opposed to being unsourceable) is not inherently a reason to delete. If it is not sourced, bring it back here and it should be a slamdunk. Could be a useful article if cleaned up. -- nae'blis 01:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - This list simply is not encyclopedic. Moreover, creating a complete version of the list could be impossible. George J. Bendo 00:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 17:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brett Blumfield

Brett Blumfield (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable self-published author. The creator of this article, Eeriemind, has only created articles related to Brett Blumfield and the username is a reference to Blumfield's website, The Eerie Mind Of Brett Blumfield. Most likely vanity. IrishGuy ^talk 18:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Doesn't appear to pass WP:BIO yet, and no reliable sources. Probable WP:COI. Shimeru 10:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 17:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Outer Realm

The Outer Realm (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non notable book. The publisher is an on-demand publisher [55] which makes this a self-published book by a non-notable author. The author's article, Brett Blumfield, is also under review. IrishGuy ^talk 18:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Self-published, not generally reviewed or given any similar consideration by critics, Amazon sales rank of just above #3,000,000. Shimeru 10:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete, per consensus of established users. --Coredesat 19:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gene Wexler (actor)

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Gene Wexler (actor) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Appeared in one movie and died, apparently with no real role in the movie otherwise. I don't think this qualifies as notability. Delete. --Nlu (talk) 18:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC) "keep" I think this article should be cleaned up, but I see no reason to delete it- keep Stumblemonkey

Strong KeepIF YOU DELETE THIS, I will personally feel the need to file a complaint with the owners of Wikipedia because GENE WEXLER is an amazing person and he is the only person that I can think of that deserves to have his own "section" to say the least on Wikipedia. So if you delete this or want it deleted, THINK AGAIN. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.204.157.62 (talk • contribs) .

KeepI completely disagree with the previous statement. Gene Wexler should be kept on wikipedia for his obvious importance and contribution to society. Nicholas' Gift was a key part of the movement to help support organ donation. Gene Wexler played the young boy, Nicholas, who is possibly the most crucial character in the show. While only having a small part in terms of time, his importance to the movie could not have been more crucial. The only action that should be taken against this wikipedia page is expansion. 205.188.116.201 20:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep-This article can admittedly use cleanup (and I am willing to do it). But the fact is Wexler is an actor with an important role in the movie. And as per the above editor, the movie and more specificly Wexler has made an impact on society. 68.193.95.73 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep-The argument for deletion is false. This article is very notable as Wexler has made a large impact on society. His role in the movie, although short, flashes back various times. His role is vital in the movie and the plot would be lost without him. Also, he is an established musician, taking part in a variation of Stomp and has been in many musicals and dramas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.193.95.73 (talk • contribs) .

• Delete One small bit part in one film isn't notable. IrishGuy ^talk 22:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Utterly and completely non-notable, as the above drivel proves. "As compensation for working in the movie, he recieved money" - so, he was paid for it then? Interesting way of putting it. -- Necrothesp 02:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Aside from greatly enjoying Necrothesp's reasoning, it must be said that this is some high school kid who played a part in one non-notable TV movie, thus affirming his complete lack of notability and failure of WP:BIO. -- Kicking222 02:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

KEEP! whats with the need to delete this page when there isn't a lack of space on wikipedia. He worked for that role and has a right to be noted. Remeber, in theater, there are no small parts!!!! 67.85.95.121 04:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Bold textKEEP - GENE WEXLER IS A MUST KEEP68.193.81.39 04:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete NN person and the article is full of speculation WP:NOT a memorial meshach 04:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP!!!

This is an important thing!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.193.93.71 (talk • contribs) .

• KEEP His role was NOT insignificant. Also, this successful movie raised proftis for organ donors! Wexler has saved lives! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.193.95.73 (talk • contribs) .

Please do not vote more than once. IrishGuy ^talk 15:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP Gene is not only been talented enough to be cast as a lead role in a film, his work besides Jamie Lee Curtis has put him in the same "club", if you will as Dan Akroyd, Tim Allen, Bette Midler, Lindsay Lohan, Chad Micheal Murray, and many others. Wexler's performance inspired children and adults alike to be organ donors, and one may argue that a TV movie may be more widely viewed than a movie in theatres, being that it is offered for free on TV. The point of the previous statement is, if Ben Afflect and erroneous actors and actresses get their names mentioned on Wikipedia, why does someone who has affected a subject so important, such as Gene, deserve to have their entry deleted. Gene Wexler's article should be KEPT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.64.111 (talk • contribs) .

• Hello. I assume you're all friends with this kid? Unfortunately, being in one movie doesn't make you famous enough for Wikipedia. Good luck with the singing career, though. Delete. --humblefool® 05:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. He is still alive but hasn't done anything since appearing in the movie as the article makes clear. Could possibly be mentioned in the article on the movie. Capitalistroadster 06:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this entry. This article is of no scholarly value and is poorly written. His achievements are comparable to those of all high school students and have made no advancements in any field. This article is the equivalent yearbook entry or a myspace page and that is where it belongs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CM02459 (talk • contribs) . — CM02459 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete, fails WP:BIO. --Dhartung | Talk 09:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Not noteworthy per WP:BIO, potential WP:COI. Shimeru 10:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Sounds like a fine fellow, but one tv movie part does not make him notable enough for an article. See WP:N. The closing administrator should note which posts were made by new or single purpose accounts. Edison 20:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

KEEP THIS ARTICLE Though the movie was only a TV movie, it still raised much awareness about organ donation. I know a few people who were impacted by this movie and became organ donors themselves. It was interesting to read about the actor who played Nicholas and what he is doing now. Maybe we will see more of him in the future. He did a pretty good job, so i suggest you keep this article!

Delete I'm more noteable than this guy. So's my wife, and she was just an extra for the Beeb. Robovski 01:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete Has been in only one movie and that movie is not notable enough to have its own article. Cynrin 03:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep: Just because it was only one small part, doesn't mean it wasnt significant. a part is a part, no matter the size. The film, along with Wexler, helped bring transplant awareness up. A reason in itself to keep the young actor, here on Wikipedia. — 67.85.85.44 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete Don't know if he's alive or not. Doesn't matter. NN. A minor part in a minor film. How many actors like this are out there? Should each one get a page? How about the minor writers, and minor artists, and minor musicians, and minor athletes, and so on? This should be deleted until the subject has achieved something more.Freshacconci 18:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply You say "until" he has achieved more. This page is continuing to expand as he keeps achieving more. He recently recieved a 96 on his AP Stats test. Before you know it he will be starring in more movies.

"Before you know it he will be starring in more movies." But until he does... (and you should sign your replies for credibility).Freshacconci 20:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep Gene Wexler is a fine actor and this movie an inspiration. Please kep this article because it opens awareness about upcoming actors.67.85.82.2 05:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

WIkipeadia isn't about awareness of organ donation, cancer, or upcomming actors. Or advertising or making people feel good. It's an encyclopedia. It's about knowledge and information. Gene's main claim to fame is a minor role in a TV movie from 8 years ago. Should Gene get his big break or become a notorious murderer or something actually of notoriety I'm sure we'd be happy to have an article on him. Right now I think I get more hits on Google, and I think I've had more screen time from back when I lived in Chicago - and I'm not an actor. I'm just some guy.Robovski 06:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Yanksox 13:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yousef al-Khattab

Yousef al-Khattab (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Procedural nomination. Article has been prodded, deprodded, reprodded, and deprodded (prods cannot be restored). There is concern that the subject may not meet WP:BIO youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 18:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 18:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 18:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. NN. Merge any useful material to The Root of All Evil ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge I think Jossi's got it right. Still, not sure what material would be merged, as this guy seems to have done nothing notable other than getting interviewed. IronDuke 20:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Those are some very...interesting ideas he has. Agree with Jossi, this would work as a mention in the documentary page. --humblefool® 20:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The article calls him "prominent". The only thing prominent I could discover about him is his Wikipedia bio. Doesn't come close to satisfying any of the inclusion category guidelines in WP:BIO. Dasondas 20:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. He is notable. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Mind providing a reason? T Rex | talk 23:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Jossi and IronDuke. There is a mention of him in The Root of All Evil which could be somewhat expanded with some of the info in this article. By the way the talk page and edit history seem to indicate that this article was created by its subject, see WP:AUTO. 6SJ7 21:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. If he were prominent, his extreme views would warrant notability too. However, he's a nut having been interviewed by Richard Dawkins; so? --tickle me 13:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. This is just self-promotion, not really providing anything worthy of being considered useful information. He's no prophet, hasn't really done anything influencial in either religion, one of many Jews who has probably converted to Islam over time. Evolver of Borg 22:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - He doesn't seem notable. BhaiSaab ^talk 23:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 23:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.135.224 (talk • contribs).
• Delete. Does not seem to meet requirements of notability. Isarig 04:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Amoruso 12:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep No reason to delete, and it is useful and may enlighten people. or merge per jossi --Nielswik_(talk) 15:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• question Why did Dawkins select him to be interviewed? Was there some preexisting prominence which led Dawkins to him, or did he just sort of grab the first Jew-to-Muslim he could find? I haven't read the book and I don't have access to Youtube to see the interview, so if there's any indication of what made Dawkins select him, I'd appreciate a quick summary. Gzuckier 17:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an AfD. Your question would have a better chance to be answered if you ask it at [[The Root of All Evil ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - per jossi. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable, hardly the "prominent" convert known for his outspoken views. Wikipidian 04:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I believe he is notable. He is touted by certain Muslim fundamentalist groups as a Jew who has "seen the light" (without mentioning that he was raised secular). I have seen him mentioned, along with another picture of him, several times in this context. The Wikipedia article can provide important information (such as his not being raised a Hasidic Jew) to interested people. This is really the point of an Encyclopedia, actually. --Eliyak T·C 04:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and Merge per Jossi. Lets all keep WP:BIO in mind. Tewfik^Talk 07:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete' non notable vanity page see ??borderline personality disorder. Elizmr 13:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Please limit the debate to whether or not the subject merits inclusion or not and not about any opinions that you may have about the individual as a person. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 14:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• OK, I apologize. Sorry. I've crossed it out, please accept my apology. Elizmr 14:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 14:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• keep I have seen this guy on several places on the net, anyone seeing him might want to know about him, and that is a good notability crieteria in my book. He is a living and walking controversy, he did not get choosen by random for the documentary, he has a track record.--Striver 11:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

could you maybe give us a hint where? I assume more people than just me have all been looking and if anybody can find anything that doesn't stem from Dawkins nobody's reported it. Gzuckier 19:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: This is the best online source that I could find: http://www.jews-for-allah.org. I think the article, if not kept, should be merged to Muslim Jew. --Eliyak T·C 23:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam/Yousef-al-Khatab.htm
• http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/salafi/jewishconvertyousefalkhattab.htm
• http://www.muslimtents.com/yousefalkhattab/
• http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups365.html
• http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Guestcv.asp?hGuestID=KzI47I
• http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2196364/bio
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6hZ9RgwIGc&mode=related&search=
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVKfnOJlBdk&mode=related&search=
• http://www.freethinkerscs.com/articles/fragileegos.htm
• http://discardedlies.com/entry/?20662_
• http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Bewildered2.htm

"Yousef al Khattab" -Dawkins gives 520 hits, 100 less than just "Yousef al Khattab", proving that he is not just notable due to the dawkins film. --Striver 09:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Only 129 of the unique - crz crztalk 12:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Warning: Joey Cohen is a serious publicity hound. He is responsible for most of those things, and for this Wikipedia article. - crz crztalk 12:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So? Is that a bad thing? --Striver 12:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. — CharlotteWebb 11:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleveland Brown, Jr.

This page is unnecessary because this character has only appeared in a few Family Guy episodes. The character does not deserve his own page. Jayorz12 05:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - He is a part of the show, I think it is notable enough for an article on him. Chris Kreider 18:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - After reviewing the way other characters are handled, I agree with Chrislk02's assessment. It makes no sense for Cleveland Jr. to be limited to the List of characters from Family Guy page when we have pages for each of the Goldmans and Joe Swanson's son. →bobby← 19:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Cleveland Jr. is much more minor than the Swanson son, who has been featured in specific episodes as being pivotal, so I have to vote weak on this. The article does jump around a bit (perhaps on purpose?), so the structure might need reworking. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 14:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Half-Life 2: Episode Four

Administrative note: I have split the histories of the two AfDs so that the first is now at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Half-Life 2: Episode Four. Thus those comments referring to "below" should be taken instead as referring to that. Splash - tk 15:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Already been deleted before, nothing has changed, Delete PureLegend 16:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to make things clear, Episode Four *does* exist and *is* under production, by a second-party studio. You can read more about its confirmation, and find the source, at Half-Life 2#Mods_and_expansions. That said I don't really mind whether it stays or goes at this point: Abstain. --Tom Edwards 17:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I've reconsidered. Ep4's existence is notable, and therefore an article, even if it's just a stub, should be around to convey the fact. Keep. --Tom Edwards 17:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• "Second-party studio" - Does that mean that I am producing it? Do you mean first or third party? Wickethewok 21:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

  Heh. Third-party I suppose. Third-party is how Valve sometimes term mods, which is probably what caused that booboo. ;-) --Tom Edwards 22:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Annouced Game, and part of a popular series. Chopper Dave 20:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. Thunderbrand 20:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Bear in mind, the article hasn't changed since last deletion, and the source is still the same. PureLegend 07:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Per previous AfD below. Same reasons apply here. Couple of lines from the gossip section of a gaming mag is not official proof. I can also find multiple sources stating there are THREE and not four episodes to Half-Life 2. Unless multiple sources can be found stating there is to be a fourth episode, there should most definitly not be an article here.The Kinslayer 16:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

A detailed telephone interview with Valve's PR head is a long way from the "gossip section". You've not even checked the source, have you? --Tom Edwards 15:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I did. The only verfiable source is one quoted sentence on a forum followed by a plethora of fan speculation. Very convincing. Half Life 2 Episode 4 yields absolutely nothing on google bar the associated posts on forums. I am now convinced that that this article DEFINITLY shouldn't be here yet. The Kinslayer 12:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Per previous AfD below. There is no reason for this to be kept, as stated above and below. --Film11 22:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Not even sure why there is a debate over the 4th episode in a trilogy. Might as well have an article about "President Emo Phillips", as it would be just as likely. Pharmboy 18:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge / Delete Mabey a referance to such a game could be put in a similar article? DotDarkCloud 22:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per Kinslayer. When/if this game is properly confirmed the article can be remade. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. aLii 11:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per aLii/Kinslayer/etc. Not WP:V enough yet. jesup 22:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: Its been known for a while that Episode 3 is the finale of the HL2 Trilogy so there's no need for a Episode 4 article when there is a 0.00001% chance of a game ever being made. Plus Vavle has made all the HL2 games by themselves (First Party), unlike the original Half Life (where Gearbox and Ritual helped out)Furthermore the only source that corraberates that is a quote from PCGamer in March. TheSpeedster

  Alright I've done some more looking, and any google search with the term Half Life Episode 4 comes up with just a comic strip. Nothing else, no PC Gamer article, no updated news (its extremely rare that any game would last that long without any new news) + Nothing on Gamespot nor IGN TheSpeedster

• Delete per Kinslayer, and possibly a violation of WP:HOAX.--WaltCip 00:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete and turn it into a footnote at the end of the HL2 article until further details are announced.--Chef Brian 03:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ultra Strong Keep if Episode 4 does occur. Give this one some time. --172.148.158.110 18:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Wikipedia's not a crystal ball. Read the above "delete" votes.--WaltCip 23:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Episode 4 IS being made by a third party, Valve said so.

• Delete until more information can be provided from externally verifiable third party sources. The information I can access (and I don't know how much more there was to the article beyond the snippet placed on the forum post) gives a single line of text. I can't tell who the developers will be, when it will begin development, etcetra, leaving us with an article that says "HL Ep 4 does not exist yet", which is not enough to go with at the moment. I fully support an article on this when more, solid information is provided to the public through reliable sources, but it is a bit premature. -- saberwyn 22:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The article uses the present tense. --Tom Edwards 11:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually have to agree with this course of action...it's not even helping anyone at the moment. Just an article with about two sentences of info.--Katana314 22:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved these sources from out of the template header to here, since you shouldn't add things up there (they get deleted when the AfD is closed, thereby removing part of the discussion input). I notice that your thrid source, the only recent one, is a forum post, as is the first one, leaving only the PCGamer announcement of more than half a year ago. (Well, I have a forum post which says it is true, because it is confirmed on Wikipedia (!), after which the other posters starts Wikibashing: that is the result of having articles about these things, less trust in Wikipedia instead of more...)[56]. Fram 12:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOT a crystal ball and lack of multiple verifiable sources. Fram 12:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:NOT crystal ball. Anyway, why isn't this on some sort of merged "Half-Life 2 episodic content" page or something? Garrett^Talk 09:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge I have added the tags suggesting a merge. W.marsh 17:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of BAPS temple locations

This article is an indiscriminate collection of links, and a mere collection of internal,links. Propose deletion per Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not. Sfacets 12:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge any relevant information to BAPS. --humblefool® 20:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per above. utcursch | talk 13:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - bad faith nom.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Bad faith nom? What is your basis for this? Sfacets 13:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Merge to Love triangle. Yomangani^talk 13:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Love rectangle

I'm holding a survey as to whether or not to merge the page Love rectangle into this love triangle or possibly a delete. Love triangles are obviously more popular or well known over love rectangles. The love rectangle page is also rather short and basically has the same info as the love triangle page, my vote:

• Merge with love triangle. UnDeRsCoRe 18:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - I think you can get the picture from love triangle. What comes next, a love dodecahedron? Chris Kreider 18:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per nom if it can be sourced - But as for love dodecahedrons, are you familiar with Marmalade Boy? ^_- Shimeru 10:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Ultra Strong Keep and yes to the other love shapes! --172.148.158.110 18:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Love triangles are a common concept; however, love rectangles (pentagons, dodecahedrons...) aren't. The term seems like a neologism. Zetawoof^(ζ) 20:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - this well never be more than elaboration on the Love triangle concept. --humblefool® 20:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as Neologism. --GringoInChile 21:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with love triangle if any reliable sources are found. --- RockMFR 04:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with love triangle as a small section. It wouldn't take up much space, and "love ____" is still used sometimes; a simple explanation would suffice. Breed Zona 22:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as above. Robovski 01:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Rename To love quadrangle.--Perceive 20:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to love triangle and mention the possibility of greater numerical configurations there. This is an easily understood concept extended from the basic concept. Do not keep as separate article. -- nae'blis 01:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 06:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oleg Serebrian

Reason in a nutshell: This is in all likelihood an astroturfing campaign that involves paid translations of author's autobiography.

Compare this article with the appearance and contents of this very piece on various European Wikipedias: de, pl, es, fr, hu, it, ro, ru. All these articles were created from a Molvadian IP address (195.138.119.133) that otherwise had little or no interest in contributing to Wikipedia.

The notability of this person is not clearly established; he was a local politician / ministry spokesperson, and a local scientist who, judging from the article, had published about five articles in various magazines and/or larger compilations, but has no own published books; this is perhaps more clear when you look at the references on pl.wiki. Although this is not mentioned in the article, he is the leader of Social Liberal Party (Moldova), but this party does not seem to have any notable accomplishments ("[...] in 2001 Oleg Serebrian released a manifest with the intention to found a social liberal party. This initiative was joined by the Christian-Democratic Women's League and the National Youth League of Moldova. In 2002 the Party of Democratic Forces merged into the party."; the members of the party had three seats in the parliament prior to forming this bloc).

This is our AfD vote on Polish Wikipedia. I'm just dropping by to share our findings. Regards. lcamtuf 15:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge - The most notable aspect of the article (in my mind) is Serebrian's position as chairman. As such, I propose giving him a permanent home within the article about his party. -bobby 16:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, and recommend speedy keep. Under WP:BIO, "members of a national, state or provincial legislature" are strongly presumed notable enough: he is a member of a national legislature. Questions about the article's neutrality or potential conflicts of interest by its creator are probably addressed best in the article's own talk page. - Smerdis of Tlön 16:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: OK, if that turns out to be the consensus here, I won't make a fuss. The article did not explicitly say he is a member of the parliament, and the question of verifiability / POV in a potential autobio remains - but if he's notable enough for en.wiki, there are other ways to take care of this. --lcamtuf 17:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: I edited the article to make it somewhat clearer that he was in fact a Moldovan MP, and found an English language site confirming that. Some Romanian language sites also seemed to confirm it, but I don't really read Romanian. Other English language sites called him a "deputy", which is an ambiguous title in American English. It does seem that he is both an MP and the leader of his party's faction in parliament, which makes him a significant enough figure to pass IMO. -Smerdis of Tlön 19:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Member of a national legislature, thus notable under WP:BIO. -- Necrothesp 01:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Links: Serebrian is a MP and leader of SLP faction. He is also author of several books (not only articles). This is an information from Tiraspol Times http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/149

"Born in 1969, Oleg Serebrian is one of Moldova's youngest and most promising political leaders. He has a solid background in international affairs, with a degree in international relations from the European Institute of High International Studies in Nice, France, and post-graduate work done at Harvard, Edinburgh and Paris. In the late 1990's, he worked for his country's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He is also the author of several books on international affairs and foreign policy, the latest being "Dicţionar de geopolitică" (Geopolical Dictionary), a 340 page tome on international politics which has just been published simultaneously in Romania and Moldova." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.97.56.58 (talk • contribs).

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, KrakatoaKatie 13:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• keep badly written articles are no reason for deletion. The SUBJECT of the article is a member of a national parliament. Ergo, he is notable. Ergo, keep the article. A rewrite is needed, not a deletion. --Jayron32 06:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Jayron. Meets WP:BIO despite origins of article. --Dhartung | Talk 09:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Keep (interested editors may merge with Jack Abramoff). cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 06:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of trips funded by Jack Abramoff

This article contains content that is not encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information. The article on Jack Abramoff is already very long, and contains many, many subpages. Some of this information could be integrated to one of the other articles, but most of it is just indiscriminate information relating to the Abramoff scandal. Each Abramoff list also contains little if any references, which makes me think that it is original research.

Since this is a sensitive political topic, I know some editors will accuse me of nominating this with a political agenda or motivation. In order to dispel this idea, I will point out that while I have also nominated List of Jack Abramoff's tribal clients and List of Jack Abramoff-related organizations (and copied this description to each), I have not nominated Jack Abramoff timeline because I feel that is a better example of the kind of list that belongs on Wikipedia. Ultra-specific, unsourced lists related to already specific scandals and persons and their dealings do not belong on Wikipedia. Renesis (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, to me it is a bit of soapboxing... as are all the nominated articles. No offence to the originator, but the sourcing falls short of verifying the article text in many places. Still, this might be useful information if it were actually sourced correctly. I'm tagging the articles now while I think about this a bit more.--Isotope23 19:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep By itself I would say it would fall under WP:NOT, but it is part of a larger series of pages related to the scandal. The information is importaint (I guess, I haven't really followed the scandal), has a narrow focus, and arranged in a useful manner. It certainly needs to be cleaned up, sourced, and expanded, but not deleted. Koweja 22:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Koweja. Xtifr _tälk 00:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect the WHOLE bunch to Jack Abramoff, or perhaps to some parent article specific to the scandal. As a stand-alone article, it doesn't hold up. The information is good and useful, but it doesn't merit its own article. --Jayron32 06:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, --Ezeu 18:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect the WHOLE bunch to Jack Abramoff, or perhaps to some parent article specific to the scandal. CraigMonroe 18:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect as per Jayron32 and CraigMonroe. Bwithh 19:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep notable topic that may have implications both criminally and electorally. Carlossuarez46 19:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

  Question: What does that have to do with Wikipedia? -- Renesis (talk) 20:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect to Jack Abramoff. The trips are not notable enough in themselves as part of the overall political scandal. Ohconfucius 04:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and expand, as per Koweja. Riverbend 20:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep wikiworthy. If every single public high school is notable for wikipedia surely corruption involving the US government is too. Arbusto 00:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 19:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of songs that are also the name of a film

List of songs that are also the name of a film (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)