Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 November 13

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[edit] November 13

page blanked as courtesy upon polite request--Jimbo Wales 13:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I have made some changes

Good Morning, all, I have made a some changes in line with my suggestions (see some things we need to decide?) I have moved Orin Peterson to the WW1 era category, as this seems to be the direction the evidence points. I have moved the Romanian and the anonymous French Vet to the Unvalidated category - with a note on whats "missing" as it where. My understanding of the Unvalidated category, is that unvalidated does not mean false (though some of them, noticeably the 13 year old veteran almost certainly are)rather they do not have full verification, by a sanctioned body, and none of these cases would appear to have such a verification. One final note is that I would suggest we create some sort of "pending" category for new cases, and I received a bit of support for this: thoughts anyone? SRwiki 10:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Great job, man. Extremely sexy 14:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The page looks great! I probably missed this, but weren't there two anonymous French Vets? What happened to the other one? Anyway, nice with the reorganization. --Brianmccollum 18:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, the other one died. Anyone site a source? Czolgolz 19:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Robert Young mentioned his death the other day. Extremely sexy 23:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It was reported to me that the other one died in December 2006, aged 106. I have requested for a release of the name and birthdate as well as death date. If/when that becomes available, the update will be posted on the 2006 deaths list, as this person is no longer relevant to the living list. I was told his first name was "Raymond." Again, these cases come from the same source that produced several other cases, such as Rene Riffaud, Francois Jaffre and Louis Legournadie.
Sincerely,
Robert Young
R Young {yakłtalk} 01:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

______________________________________________________

I think you have done a great job on the changes! I also think there should be a pending section, or at least a way to notify us that there may be another WWI vet. but at least keep him or her in a pending state until we can get some good source info., and not just someone saying he may be one, and listing it without anything to back it up. 209.240.206.201 06:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why have 3 French vets been moved?

I am just wondering why 3 of the French vets, have suddenly moved into the unverified category? After much discussion, in December I thought we had come to a reasonable consensus, about who was listed where, and my understanding was that all 3 were recognised as vets in our definition rather than the stricter (and western front orientated) French definition. The moving of the Italian vet who is living in France suggests that who-ever has taken it upon themselves to do this, doesn't understand how the page is laid out. If this vet has been moved because he has not been verified by the French Government, then there is no reason why he would be, he is a veteran of the Italian army - people do move around. Can whoever has done this moving please explain their reasoning? thanks SRwiki 18:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In France, there are only three official WWI veterans.
  • De Cazenave, Louis
  • Grelaud, Jean
  • Ponticelli, Lazarre
The other one do not have the right qualifications to be on this list... I didn't know where to put this other vet so I put them in the last part of the article
Paris75000 21:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for replying, but I think you are using a different definition of a vet to the rest of us. As far as I can tell the official French definition accepts only those with more than 3 months service, on the Western Front. The definition we are using here, is service anywhere, for any length of time up to 11/11/1918. I suspect the official French definition, is for the purposes of who gets a war pension, rather than who is a veteran.
If you scroll through this discussion page, you will see we have discussed this in great detail
In the case of two of these Vets 1 served in Syria, and one for less than three months, so although not on the official list, are still veterans. The Third vet you moved is an ITALIAN, who just happens to now be living in France, he is never going to be classed as a French Veteran, because he was never in the French Army. But he is an undisputed Veteran of the Italian Army.SRwiki 07:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Finally I notice that Charles Brunier, was awarded service medals for World War 1, but was stripped of them when he was convicted of murder, so another reason he may not be on the official list is that it would be very embarassing for the French Government, if they ended up giving a full state funeral to a convicted murderer. SRwiki 08:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SRwiki"

Hi
I just made some modifications to show exactly what are the official and non official living WWI vets in France. I hope you will enjoy them (I think I striked the right balance)
Sincerily
Paris75000 09:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Tuveri be included as a veteran of Italian army?

Greetings,

There are several issues here. First, Tuveri moved to France and is a French citizen even though an Italian vet. There is also the issue of a Canadian living in the U.S., Brits living in Australia, etc.

That is a separate issue from the 'official' French government list. For one, I don't give much credit at all the the 'official' list. As someone mentioned, it seems designed to exclude (and thus to possibly save money by denying a pension). Second, the 'official' listmakers didn't do any research (but claimed credit for 'discovering' Rene Riffaud and Francois Jaffre, who appeared on the Wiki article months earlier). Third, the Italian list also doesn't include 'official' vets, either. I think the issue of 'verification' is one of existence and service, not government sanction. Fourth, the official lists changed the rules to include Rene Riffaud (and thus the rules don't seem so important as their marketing efforts). As noted, there is at least one anonymous French veteran not yet releaved. So, the French gov't may be embarrassed if the anonymous vet outlives the three 'official' veterans.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 20:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC) _____________________________________________________ Why is it that when we get the list in pretty good shape, someone comes along and does something totally off the wall. I was for removing the "unverified" French Vet. until a name was released. However, to remove a vet because he has not met the french requirements of so many months service is confusing and does not make sense. Please put them back in the list. As a person stated above, if you will read the comments of the other members you should understand why this is not the correct thing to do. (pershinboy) 209.240.206.201 22:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

Media reports have Charles Brunier joining in 1918, aged 17, and wounded in combat in Syria. However, I'm certain he will NOT get a state funeral. His military honors were stripped in 1923 (after being convicted of murder), why would they be restored now? Further, the French gov't only recognizes "Western front" veterans (a sort of Euro-centric bias, yes). Third, because he was wounded, Brunier served only two months (less than the three-month requirement). Let's not forget that the information on Brunier came from independent sources that were not aware of this Wiki article.

The bigger question is: if the French gov't gives a funeral for the 'last' veteran and then another one emerges, what then? As stated, there is at least one remaining anonymous veteran (alive this month). However my contact dropped contact Jan 16 so I can no longer vouch for the continued existence of this person. My contact did report, for example, Rene Riffaud months before the French gov't noticed, as well as Louis Jaffre.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 19:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hans Klöpper

Don't just delete a veteran with no explanation. Give a reason for the deletion.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 20:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I also added him to this year's deceased World War I Veterans list, but I didn't know his exact date of death at the time, hence. Extremely sexy 21:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems he died in 2006, not 'this years's list.' In any case, it seems the case is now resolved, but I think we should get more details about deleting someone presented as 'living' who are in fact not. Thanks.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 06:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry: "last year's list", but his death has only recently been known. Extremely sexy 14:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death of Rene Riffaud

With the death of Rene there is a ever growing chance murderer Charles Brunier is up for a state funeral. Will he get it?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.23 (talk) 05:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Interesting Character Charles Brunier, as far as I can tell, he enlisted with the French Navy, towards the end of WWI, the war in Syria, was I believe actually fought in 1919, and was more of a land grab, in which France carved the nascent states of Syria and Lebanon, out of the defeated Ottoman Empire, jailed for murder on Devils Island, and more relevantly for the purposes of this discussion - stripped of his military honours. Claims to be the basis of Papillon, escapes from Devils Island, fights in WW2, is arrested, and sent back to Devils Island, but is finally pardoned for his role in WW2. It's quite a story, and I imagine there is a reasonable amount of paperwork to back this up.
But whether ever makes it onto the list, depends on whether the pardon, trumps the honors being stripped. My guess would be no. I really can't see a coffin carrying the body of a murderer, being paraded down the Champs d' Elysee.

One other thing that has occured to me, is that the French Navy was one of the biggest in the world at the time. I just wonder if in the focus on the Western front, some of these sailors may have been overlooked. SRwiki 08:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


What you did above is a 'thought crime'. Killing someone in combat is NOT murder. It is self-protection.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 19:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Legally, and that is all that matters for the sake of this debate the answer is no. Being realistic, this is a rather hypothetical debate, as this will be a matter for the French government to decide. For myself I just can't see it. can you?SRwiki 07:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Right. The French Government has made a decision, and he in no way will be considered as the last, nor will they honor him. Can't blame them really.(PershinBoy)63.3.7.1 23:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen Butcher

A while back, a poster here (I forget the name) attacked me for the "vandalism" of removing Stephen Butcher's name, from the living veterans list, even though he was deceased (and I had seen a local newspaper's obituarys section) and demanded proof.

Aside from confirmation from Dennis Goodwin, the UK veterans "guru" as it were, then I repeat below what is held at the London Births, Marriages & Deaths Index for 2005.

Stephen Graham Butcher b. 2 Jan 1904 d. Dec 2005, Portsmouth. (volume Bon-Col Deaths 2005 p 577, entry 4971e)

I hope that now satisfies as enough proof (as I can hardly make up all that information), and with the above information a death certificate can also be obtained should there be any need.

Very shortly, the online versions of these indexes will be updated for online verification as well.

Thanks, Richard J —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.144.160 (talk) 17:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

No: thank you, my dear friend. Extremely sexy 00:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew Engh

M165.234.180.59 19:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Mathew Engh 1899 August American USA Resides in Grand Forks, North Dakota

This was posted in the Unverified section the other day incorrectly by the poster. Would someone be kind enough to format it the correct manner. Just seems to be an honest mistake. Does anyone else know anything about him or could find any further info? --Brianmccollum 04:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

This claim is too early to determine if its a claim or a hoax. The user who posted it appears to be an established Wikipedian...too bad no news citation was provided. However, the Jim Harrison case (1896?-2004) might be a hoax also...→ R Young {yakłtalk} 08:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The Ancestry website reveals no Matthew Engh living in North Dakota or any history of a Matthew Engh. Me thinks it is a hoax........

I couldn't find anything either - no newspaper article, Ancestry listing, anything. There are 5 hits for Mattew Engh on Google but none of these could conceivably be a Vet. I would argue that this name shouldn't even be on the unvalidated list - as it doesn't even have a citiation SRwiki 09:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

SRwiki why bother saying that? There are higher forces over here on this page. As long as they don't agree with you, Engh's name will remain on the list and people like Mr. Young will bash at you for wanting to make the list shorter

Re the above unsigned comment, the fact that you failed to sign is an indication that what you said is just 'sour grapes,' and without merit. The name is off the list and I didn't try to restore it, did I? So you were wrong. Excuse me for supporting a little investigation. Last I checked, cases like Robley Rex are STILL unresolved. We are still waiting for someone to produce his army draft papers...→ R Young {yakłtalk} 00:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, I have been through US public records & the following Engh's live in Grand Forks, North Dakota: Adam Engh, aged 28; Clarence Engh aged, 35, Robert M Engh, 82, Tim D Engh 35 and that's it.

This is clearly a fake and I shall be deleting it as such. Otherwise people will accept any old nonsense written on the site.

Mr Young can bash away if he likes - but this entry has no substance behind it AT ALL

And so, I was right after all, because I had deleted him immediately, since there was no reference at all, and, moreover, it was indeed an addition by an anonymous user, not an established one, as claimed by Robert Young. Extremely sexy 00:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Bart, you 'cry wolf,' writing 'vandalism' for every change you don't agree with...for example when someone deleted the redundant 'oldest woman' box from the Maria Capovilla page. Yet that was not vandalism, it was a difference of opinion.

Also, I never said it was a real case, I said we need to give time to investigate first...and a little investigation turned up no evidence of existence, so deleting was the proper recourse. That doesn't make me 'wrong' because I thought the case should be checked out thoroughly.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 00:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The 'ship' is sinking

Sad to hear that Robert Meier, seeming in good health, passed away. It does seem that, finally, a LOT of big names are falling in the last 12 months...Emiliano Mercado Del Toro (115), Moses Hardy (113), George Johnson (112), Maurice Floquet (111), Ernest Pusey (111). Even the USA, Italy, and Germany are finally seeing their numbers down to 8, 7, and 6...not good...→ R Young {yakłtalk} 14:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sad yes, but considering the average age is now 107, not altogether unexpected. --Maelwys 14:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
In this month, January up to today the 30th, 6 WW1 Veterans have passed away..that is exactly one every 5 days.. If this continues.. sadly,there comes a time....{User Redpepper1952} 13:00 30th January, 2007
But Meier is a sad exception, since he died not long after suffering a bad fall, otherwise he would have made 110. Extremely sexy 00:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That is a real tragedy for someone so old as Meier 109 yrs. to have a bad fall, Very serious, but at least he did not suffer long. (User Redpepper1952)19:14, January 30,2007

[edit] Konstanty Jung

  1. 1 november 1901-
  2. 105 years old
  3. http://miastolublin.pl/?m=news&d=17&nr=6626
  4. Surviving veteran? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.30.161.111 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC).


Definitely 105, but there's nothing in that news report that signifies that he is a veteran of World War I (or indeed, any war). Not every man now alive over 100 fought in WWI after all...

Cheers, Richard J

[edit] Rudolf Seim

Can anyone backup his move to the 2007 deathlist and confirm his passing? I'd just like to know if it was done by a legit poster because there is no day of month or citation. I hope it is not the same person from the whole Matthew Engh nonsense. --Brianmccollum 15:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Matthew Engh came from "user 165...". This came from "User 87" and appears to be legitimate.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 01:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

I have been told by a German colleague that calls to a nursing home were made, but they wouldn't release the date. This is not confirmed but it seems likely that Mr. Seim must have died recently. Notably, he would have been named the oldest man in Germany on Jan 29 2007 if still living. → R Young {yakłtalk} 00:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

That was I. I phoned the nursing home in the case of Mr. Velten, not Seim - sorry, I didn't say that clear. There was a little Note in a newspaper that he died a few days ago, We hope we can find the exact date out. Statistician 01.02.2007 10:59 (CET)

A poster on the Yahoo! Group Worlds_Oldest_People claims Rudlof Seim died on 09.01.2007 --Brianmccollum 16:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

We now have a source and a date for Rudolph Seim. Please stop deleting it.

For you people who think it is equivalent to Solinski: comparing apples and oranges simply won't do. We had someone tell us that Seim had died and a phone call was made. Now, someone found the obit in the newspaper. Far more than we saw people do with the Polish cases.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 05:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert, I must respectfully disagree on this point "Far more than we saw people do with the Polish cases" . I have made continued written enquiries about Solinski (previously, and recently again) to his local town asking for more information about him. I'm not sitting on my arse deleting Solinski & saying "I think he went in 2005", I'm trying to do something about it. I accept, and have done so from the start, Seim is dead, but please don't belittle other people's efforts simply because you don't like them.

I AM working on it & hope to produce the evidence one day to confirm it. Please give it time and please have some patience, and less of these little "asides", hmmmm?

Richard J

[edit] Has Gheorghe C. Panculescu died?

Afternoon All During an idle moment whilst pretending to work I Googled Gheorghe C. Panculescu and the following came up as a Wikipedia link:

General(r) Corp de Armata Gheorghe C. Panculescu(n.26 martie 1903-d.9ianuarie2007) decorat cu Ordinul Steaua Romaniei in grad de Mare Cavaler(1991) si multe ...

But the link doesn't seem to go anywhere Unfortunately my knowledge of Romanian is non-existent, so I couldn't plough through the Roimanian branch of Wikipedia to track it any further. but it does rather look as though he may have died on the 9th Jan. Has any-one else come across anything to corroborate this? Thanks SRwiki 15:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Who added this case in the first place? I would assume he died Jan 9 2007 unless someone else says otherwise. Also, with the claimed date of enlistment (May 1918) I think we should add him to the WWI vets who died in Jan 2007. Any objections?→ R Young {yakłtalk} 01:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... not certain. There's nothing in the Romanian press about this. All there is one (defunct) wikipedia page.

Not saying he's not dead, but I can't see why there's one rule for Panculescu & another for Solinski. Neither have any PROOF they are dead for certain, after all.

No one said that Solinksi was dead, no one offered a death date. They just said "we didn't see a birthday story this year." If you will, we can make a 'limbo' list for cases where deaths are unconfirmed.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 01:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

One more point: the article was written in Romanian, making it less likely to be a hoax. Also, the writer of the article was apparently unaware or didn't bother to edit the USA version, again making a motive of deception less likely.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 02:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

But where is this particular link though? Extremely sexy 16:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naum Djordjevitch

In the France version of the Wiki you can find Naum Djordjevitch. Anybody knows if this claim is validated? Or is he dead? http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derniers_poilus#Encore_en_vie Statistician 02.02.2007 20:33 (CET)

According to some other sites, Djordjevitch died some time ago, around 1999, I believe.

Can you post one? Statistician 03.02.2007 14:32 (CET)

[edit] Antonio Pierro

Mr Pierro passed away this morning, Feb 8 2007. This is confirmed.

Please update accordingly.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Damn: exactly 1 or 2 weeks before turning 111, so another old man gone. Extremely sexy 19:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I believe Frank Buckles made it to France as well. I remember reading in an article this past Veterans' Day that he sailed over on the Carpathia, the ship that rescued the Titanic survivors. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[edit] Last living/dying Canadian veteran

The Canadian government recently announced (in reaction to an online petition) that when the last surviving Canadian WWI vet dies, he would be given a state funeral, as a way of honouring the memories and sacrifices of all the Canadians who fought in WWI. Should this be mentioned somewhere on the page, either in the header or in the Canada section right above that table? --Maelwys 16:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What if Mr. Babcock ends up being the last? He was born in Canada. Did his training in Canada. However, not only has he spent most of his life in the USA. He is a United States citizen. Will this bother the Canadians? I Imagine he will wish to be buried in the USA. 209.240.206.209 11:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
He served in the Canadian military during WWI, so he'd be honoured on behalf of all the members of Canada's WWI military, regardless of where he lives now. Anyway, I didn't bring this here to discuss if it was right or wrong, just whether or not we should mention it on this page. --Maelwys 13:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I say place it on there in a brief sentence. It's an interesting tidbit that regular viewers who come across the page aren't going to learn about otherwise.--Brianmccollum 15:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
It is an interesting tidbit, but does not belong on the main page. If so, we could probably add another 50 or 60 more interesting footnotes and so on. By the way, the three Canadian veterans say they are not interested in a state funeral. I guess they can be honored, but it sounds like all three want a private funeral... No it shouldn't be listed in the main section. 209.240.206.209 02:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)