Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Catholic composers

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE Composers and NO CONSENSUS on artists, but NOM WITHDRAWN. I've read this quite carefully to make sure I've seperated people's preferences for the two articles. I think there is rough consensus for the decision, and although this is a case where the numbers really are less important than the discussion, the numbers back it too. -Splash^talk 21:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Catholic artists, List of Catholic composers

This is a combined AfD for the List of Catholic artists (actually painters and sculptors) and the List of Catholic composers.

These lists could actually be useful, one might list people devoted to religious art, such as composers of hymns or painters whose Catholic faith is evident in their work.

Unfortunately the entries are so sloppy ("the great majority of French and Polish composers") that there is no point in having them.

Delete unless fixed. Pilatus 14:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomination withdrawn for List of Catholic artists. As per User:T. Anthony, delete the List of Catholic composers and list any composer in the list of artists. Pilatus 22:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

• Delete listcruft, however if someone can fix the artists list to list those painters who exclusively paint Catholic themes and/or worked for the Vatican, then I'd be willing to support such a list change to keep. But otherwise this is no different than the other religious lists. 23skidoo 15:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm trying to do just that. I added that they either have to be known for Catholic religious art or be priests. Unless people ignore that warning it should in least be a step toward limiting.--T. Anthony 18:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I've modified my vote to a conditional as a result of T. Anthony's efforts. If the list can be pared down to artists/composers who do specifically Catholic/religious-based work, then this can be kept (and the same would go for any other similarly religious-based list for composers and artists. I just oppose listing someone here simply on the basis of their religion.) 23skidoo 19:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and 23skidoo. Anville 16:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep "Unfortunately the entries are so sloppy," is an argument to fix not destroy.--T. Anthony 16:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Keep — I see no issue with lists of accomplished individuals belonging to a particular faith. Information like this is encyclopedic and can be a source of pride as well as role models. — RJH 16:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. First, the problem with the case for "fixing" is that unfortunately these lists have been constructed in such a slipshod way that it is impossible to fix them, because the list a) does not specify what the inclusion criterion are, and b) does not provide any shortcut to determining whether an entry fits the criteria other than to research each one from scratch. They are intrinsically unfixable and unmaintainable. If the first sentence had say, for example, that this is "list of composers whose Wikipedia articles cite them as adhering to Roman Catholicism during their adult life" something could be done. But, in any case, b) this list serves absolutely no function that a category would not serve better. Finally, c) "to be a source of pride" to a specific group of people is not Wikipedia's mission. In fact it is somewhat at odds with neutrality, and in the long run could even result in silly list-duels. You know... someone constructs a "list of Mennonite composers" and someone retorts by constructing a "list of Mennonite felons." Dpbsmith (talk) 17:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete List of Catholic composers for reasons I give above. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Keep List of Catholic artists for reasons I give below. Suggest move to List of Roman Catholic artists (since that seems to be the intention) and leave List of Catholic artists in place as a redirect. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per above - taken it total it is unverified and unverifiable, and any inclusion criteria would be POV.--Doc ^ask? 19:29, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As a compromise could we ditch the composers list, but keep the artists one? Because the way I rewrote it I think the explanation given practically requires a name be verified to be added. The composer one is just too difficult to rework along the same lines, for now.--T. Anthony 20:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm changing my vote as you suggest, because the "artists" list is now more than a simple list, criteria for inclusion are stated, and at least rough reasons why the artist meets the criteria are given for most artists. I'm doing this on the assumption that you've checked the names on the artists list and that the information in them is, at least, confirmed by our own articles; and that, reading the articles, a reasonable person would agree that they show that "Catholicism was vitally important" to the artists named. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Move to List of Roman Catholic artists with editing for religious art content. Durova 21:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete for obvious reasons 72.144.139.115 21:24, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

*Keep, artists article is much-improved now. Rather than moving the article to "List of Roman Catholic artists", consider expanding into List of Christian artists, since such an article doesn't exist and there must be many artists noteworthy for their Christian iconography who aren't Roman Catholics. :) And, surely, many Roman Catholics who are noteworthy for their Christian themes but don't have necessarily specifically "Roman Catholic" themes, per se. -Silence 22:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

• • "consider expanding into List of Christian artists" I can see that. Let's see how that works, but I'd be good with that. I was just working with what I had.--T. Anthony 23:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • This is not a serious remark... but I personally would not enjoy seeing Thomas Kinkade, Painter of Light^TM bracketed together with Leonardo DaVinci.
      • That wouldn't have to happen. If you look at present the list is primarily about people who are important in religious art. Like they did the main art for cathedrals or one of the masterpieces of Catholic art. I don't think Kinkade would count even if some of his works are Christian.(Which I didn't know) Instead make it generalized Christian would be like being able to add Rembrandt or Rublev--T. Anthony 00:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per revised nomination (i.e. keep artists, ditch composers). Eusebeus 23:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Would anyone object if I add composers like Vivaldi, who were Catholic priests, to the artists deal when that deletion is done.--T. Anthony 23:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't mind seeing this at List of Christian artists and add Johann Sebastian Bach. Shame to exclude him for being Protestant. Pilatus 18:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. I think the most concrete argument presented is that the religious beliefs or birth heritage of all these lists of people do not inform the careers or accomplishments that accompany. If the definition of any faith is go to be so broad such that someone who was, for example, born to a Jewish mother and Catholic father and raised without any religious input, could be listed as a Catholic _______ (insert your favorite category) and as a Jewish _______, then there is no information of any value wnatsoever. Jtmichcock 23:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete This is why we have lists for Catholic countries Antidote 23:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm now good with the composer one going away, but I have to say this statement is very bad logic. A great many Catholics of historic importance didn't come from Catholic countries. The current Pope didn't really come from a Catholic country. Neither did Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Francis Arinze, Nicholas Steno, J. R. R. Tolkien, or others.--T. Anthony 04:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination, or else make sure to create List of Composers Who Are 1/8th Catholic and 7/8ths Jewish, List of Composers Who Are 1/4 Catholic and 3/4s Jewish, List of Composers Who Are 1/8th Zoroastrian, 3/8ths Catholic, and 1/2 Jewish, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam. Nandesuka 14:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't be one-fourth Catholic. Anymore then you could be one fourth atheist or or one fourth Muslim. It's not an ethnicity, as Jewish or maybe Zoroastrian(as traditionally they downright discourage conversion) would be, it's a religion. Either you believe, or believed, it or you don't. Even if you accepted one fourth of it, (this doesn't quite work but to give some sense that'd be like, "I like two of their sacraments, but I could do without the other five" or "I like Purgatory, but I can't go for intercession of saints or Papal infallibility or transubstantiation" or "I accept priestly celibacy, but as a non-priest I want to have lots of gay sex, group sex, and non-marital sex"), you wouldn't be one-fourth Catholic.--T. Anthony 21:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Catholics are a community. JBH 22:33, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete EscapeArtistsNeverDie 22:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep and maintain as separate lists. Religion is essential to artistic creation. --JJay 10:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • If I were to play you an excerpt from a symphony you've never heard before, without telling you the composer's name, could you tell by listening whether the composer was Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish? Dpbsmith (talk) 13:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: No, and I doubt that I could identify the nationality/sexuality of the composer, the particular symphony or even the style of music. The same goes for painting. The fact that I can’t is not a disqualifying factor. Since I think religion/sexuality/nationality etc. can all strongly color artistic expression, I have no problem with listing artists and composers on this basis. These facts may not always be necessary to judge/appreciate an individual selection, but are often essential to understanding meaning and context (i.e. knowing William Byrd was Catholic does seem critical; that Copland was American and Jewish adds meaning to his work; just like Picasso’s nationality adds force to Guernica_(painting)). I understand the inherent dangers of all these lists. In the present case, Mahler would seem to be a bit of a stretch. If this was a List of Catholic symphonies rather than composers, I might vote delete. Nevertheless, if List of Catholic artists is worth keeping, why not List of Catholic composers?-- JJay 21:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

• Delete - will never be used. 72.144.71.234 04:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
• Comment If a list on Catholic composers is to be deleted, following that logic, the "article" List of gay, lesbian or bisexual composers should also be deleted. Shouldn't standards be the same throughout Wikipedia? Should gay lists and jewish lists be allowed yet white, catholic straight lists be deleted?--Bob 22:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes. However, the presence of other inappropriate articles in Wikipedia is not a justification for including this one. If it were, there would be a rapid "race to the bottom." Human judgement being what it is you can't expect there to be perfect bright-line criteria and there will unavoidably be inconsistent judgements for borderline articles. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Whether separate or combined lists (aren't composers artists?) please keep. Was thrilled to find this site for the first time today - till reading of possible deletion. Don't do it. It's unusual, helpful and very, very cool. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.167.71.107 (talk • contribs) 06:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC).

The delete vote on the artists one was actually withdrawn. That won't show up on that article until the overall vote is settled. However if I understand it correctly the Catholic artists one is staying no matter how this vote turns out. Ideally it'll someday have a greater number of modern people who work in Catholic art.--T. Anthony 10:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Also I'm moving the most "Catholic" of the composers to the artist article. Personally I think they'd fit better in the musicians article, but odds seem high it will be deleted. If not I'll move them over there.--T. Anthony 07:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, trivia. Radiant_>|< 13:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Time to rid wikipedia of these foolish lists. StabRule 20:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: StabRule, please rid this AfD of your two foolish sock puppet votes above. -- JJay 20:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.