Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Julia Sinédia-Cazour

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete this outright. But a lot of these where there's nothing notable except their extreme age are redirected to Oldest people, where there's a comprehensive list. W.marsh 16:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Julia Sinédia-Cazour

This person lacks notability and has almost no hits on google. Age really shouldn't be the only accomplishment of a notable person.--Thomas.macmillan 05:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. I think she should be kept here because she holds the age record on the island of Réunion. (unsigned comment)

• Keep. People of this age are notable purely on account of their age. People are interested in such supercentenarians. The fact she has few hits on Google is completely and utterly irrelevant and I'm always amazed that people continue to trot out this lame excuse for "non-notability". Google is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. -- Necrothesp 13:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. As Robert Young already pointed out, there are several hits for her on the French Wikipedia, and as I already mentioned, getting to 113 years old really is an exceptional feat. Extremely sexy 16:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete. I doubt that the subject meets WP:BIO. The article cites one source; I don't know whether the French-language journal "Témoignages" qualifies as a reliable source, especially for en.wikipedia rather than the fr edition. Is this a fact-checked publication or just a blog of human-interest fluff stories? Subjectively I don't feel that "almost oldest" is any qualification for inclusion, but I'll let policy override my opinion if more sources meeting WP:RS are cited. Barno 20:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Robert Young mentions more sources on my talk page (but hasn't put them in the article as of this comment). If added they might change my vote, but only because WP standards rely on third-party coverage rather than importance. French Wikipedia cannot be a reference for English Wikipedia. The accusation of "racists and nationalists" is against the WP:NPA policy and has nothing to do with me nor (from what I can see) most others who commented. Barno 14:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Julia Sinédia-Cazour was black and French, and the article was originally written by an Afro-French writer. It may not be intentional racism or nationalism, but I have seen a repeated pattern whereby those of white English ancestry (i.e. Thomas MacMillan, just the latest) have chosen to attack supercentenarian articles for non-English persons, even when the standards maintained exceeded the British cases. This is true both for WWI vets (we see articles on British WWI vets as young as 105, and nearly every veteran with an article) while WWI vet articles for Americans and French have been attempted to be deleted (and in some cases were) when the individual was aged 107 and over (i.e. older than the British articles). From Edna Parker (113), Lucie Péré-Pucheu (112), Anne Primout (114), Florenc Homan (112), Augusto Oliveiro Moreira (110), etc. there has been a constant wave of 'not notable' attacks, yet looking at the English list, we find persons listed aged 110, 110, 111, 111, etc. and some of them were not even the oldest person in England at the time. I find it hard to believe that one can say a 112-year-old, verified American death is 'not notable' but the death of the second-oldest person in England at 111 is. It's not imagination when 71% of 'oldest British vets' have articles when no other country exceeds 30%. It's not imagination when we have 13 British super-c articles and only 11 for France, when France has more super-cs (87 vs 66) and they have generally been older, on average. Thus, it stands that the only thing 'not notable' is not age, but race, language, and/or nationality.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 16:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In particular, this section:

Marie-Julia Sinédia-Cazour was happy to live, she was a cheerful woman and a devout believer. She lived at home up to the age of 101. - - She said: “Si tu crois en Dieu, tu vives longtemps”, meaning "If in God you trust, you will live for a long time". - - The island was very sad at her death, considered a grandmother by all its inhabitants. - - Julia Sinédia is considered to be the Jeanne Calment of Réunion island.

Which was deleted as POV/biased. Yet a closer look...living at home until 101 is a fact. A quote she said is a fact (and we see quotes on the Jeanne Calment page). Even a statement about her religious beliefs or outlook on life can be taken as facts. Further, for the 'white' articles, we see comments such as "Jeanne Calment was the grandmother of all of us." Some people are so hard on eliminating humanistic perspective that they lose some value. People are connected by identity. The Brits love Henry Allingham and though, just 110 years old, he is played up in the media as a symbol of not just the 'Great War' but of heroism, valourism, etc. (notice the medals he displays). The Queen of England is a SYMBOL of pomp, ceremony, circumstance, and history. We, in our Anglo-centric perspective, recognize these symbols as important. Yet when we concern others, we devalue their own symbols. Reunion was an island conquered and colonized by Europeans, and Julia Sinedia was a 'militante' (the meaning in French is 'activist,' not 'terrorist') who advocated for the rights of women and minorities. Hence, her age was only a part of the story. Despite the discrimination faced, Julia Sinedia overcame the odds to work within and fit within the French system. The vast majority of Africa has little or no birth records from the 19th century, yet Reunion, being an island, was a more manageable entity. Thus, Julia symbolizes the assimilation and integration of a subaltern culture into a European empire, one which generally gave the minorities a degree of respect and identity not accorded by several other European empires. Even today, we see that the French overseas departements get to vote as part of France (whereas Puerto Ricans, for example, don't vote for U.S. president). Julia Sinedia, like Henry Allingham, was a symbol and context of her age. To devalue her is to not just devalue the extreme rarity of living to a proven 113 years; it is to devalue the history of Reunion, France, the French empire, Africa, and Africans. For more information, I suggest reading the book 'Empire of Love' by Matt K Matsuda and 'The Wretched of the Earth' by Franz Fanon.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 16:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. There is nothing "notable" about being old unless one is the "oldest ever". There is no "feat" involved in being old, it is just existing. QuiteUnusual 21:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment. If it were so easy, why isn't everyone doing it? Aside from the fact of the historical connection these people bring (i.e. this woman was 19 when the Titanic sunk), we can also learn context (i.e. that Reunion kept good records as a French colony, that despite discrimination Julia's birth and marriage were recorded) and these people also serve as heroes (i.e. that you can live a long life despite adversity). I find it the height of hypocrisy that these 'not notable' attacks always seem to come to people of non-English background, yet when some 111-year-old English woman dies, there's a Wikiarticle. Age 113 is two years above that.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:British_supercentenarians

Hmmm...111, 112, 110, 111...→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. It seems the racists and nationalists are out in force as usual.131.96.70.164 02:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Article needs to be touched up, but sure significant. IA (talk) 07:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletions. -- IA (talk) 07:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Incredible that I am a racist and a nationalist now because I listed this here. Anyway, 3 of the sources are from the same news organization. 2 of them makes a 1 sentence mention of the woman near the bottom and 1 is a blog. None of them say anything about her besides the name, her age and location. I still far from convinced of her notability. She does not fit the guidelines of notability.--Thomas.macmillan 17:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You should very well know that articles in newspapers often are temporary. The articles in Clicanoo are no longer online. Yet, this case set a record that is unlikely to be broken any time soon. I doubt if you read all the articles. Seeing the one I posted was a lot longer than just one sentence, I wonder how you can say that. 131.96.70.164 01:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this sure looks like just one sentence:

UNE SAINT-LOUISIENNE A FÊTÉ SES 112 ANS LUNDI

Joyeux anniversaire, Madame Marie-Julia Sinédia ! Publié dans l'édition du jeudi 15 juillet 2004

Le 12 juillet dernier, Marie-Julia Sinédia a fêté ses 112 ans. Née en 1892, la Saint-Louisienne entame son troisième siècle avec élégance et joie de vivre. La doyenne des Réunionnais est abonnée à “Témoignages”.

CULTURE ET IDENTITÉ

MARIE-JULIA Sinédia est une star malgré elle. Vêtue d’une jolie robe blanche ornée de motifs bleus, impeccablement coiffée d’une capeline blanche finement ourlée de bleu et ornée d’une rose de mousseline couleur crème, elle est l’objet de toutes les attentions. On ne vient que pour elle, on ne parle que d’elle. L’événement est de taille : ce 12 juillet, elle a fêté ses 112 ans. Un âge vénérable qui fait d’elle à coup sûr la doyenne des Réunionnais et peut-être même la doyenne des Français. Chacun y va de son petit cadeau, de son petit compliment, on veut la voir, la prendre en photo. Elle ne parle presque pas, Marie-Julia Sinédia. Mais elle sourit, un peu intimidée par toute cette agitation autour d’elle... Sans doute retrouve-t-elle un peu de cette gaieté, cette ambiance de fête qu’elle a toujours aimée, cette ambiance où l’on sourit, où l’on se retrouve pour marquer le coup.

Une femme militante Elle, la femme active, la femme militante, la femme-courage de tous les combats, a hérité d’un rare privilège accordé au genre humain : celui d’une longévité qui lui aura fait traverser trois siècles. Une enfance à la fin du 19ème siècle, qui la voit naître un 12 juillet de l’an de grâce 1892 à Saint-Louis. Il faudra toute la bêtise d’un agent de l’état-civil pour que son nom de Latour soit trafiqué en Cazour, l’imbécile officier d’état-civil estimant que ce nom de Latour étant "réservé" aux blancs, et ne devant pas être accordé à une personne dont la couleur de peau tenait plus du café grillé que du lait... Enfant du 19ème siècle, Marie-Julia Sinédia réalise sa vie de femme dans un vingtième siècle qu’elle traverse de manière active et la voilà à l’automne de sa vie, goûtant à une retraite amplement méritée en entamant son troisième siècle. De son enfance et de sa scolarité à l’école des sœurs de Saint-Louis, dont elle fut une des premières pensionnaires, elle a gardé une éducation sans faille et une rigueur morale qui sont toujours en elle. Le personnel de la maison de retraite de Saint-Louis ne tarit pas d’éloge sur sa personne et sur ses traits de caractère. Jamais un mot plus haut que l’autre. Pas de caprice. "Elle a des valeurs familiales très solides. Elle est pudique, très pieuse, fait preuve de sagesse et de solidarité envers les autres résidents de la maison de retraite", assure Fabienne Mardenalom, cadre-infirmière. Elle a aussi gardé une certaine coquetterie, comme en témoigne sa tenue impeccable et sa capeline qui lui confère une certaine élégance...

Le refus de la misère... Son passage à l’école des sœurs de Saint-Louis lui aura permis d’acquérir à la fois une instruction et une éducation religieuse qu’elle a toujours en elle, ne ratant jamais une messe. C’est toujours avec une grande foi qu’elle refuse toute vérification du pace-maker qui lui a été implanté depuis de nombreuses années déjà. "Elle dit que c’est le bon Dieu qui vérifiera", explique une infirmière de la maison de retraite de Saint-Louis. Dans une brochure consacré aux "Centenaires de l’an 2000" éditée par le GRAHTER (Groupe de recherche sur l’archéologie et l’Histoire de la terre réunionnaise), on apprend que jusqu’à l’âge de 98 ans, elle se rendait encore seule à l’église pour assister à la messe, ne se déplaçant jamais sans son chapelet. Elle, qui a traversé ce vingtième siècle de tous les bouleversements techniques et des progrès technologiques, affirme que "le progrès est bon à condition de bien s’en servir, c’est en se sens que le bon Dieu a donné l’intelligence à l’Homme". Marquée par son éducation religieuse, très pieuse, Marie-Julia Sinédia fut aussi une femme courage et une militante active. Tour à tour femme de ménage chez de gros propriétaires terriens, travaillant dans les champs, couturière et lingère à l’hôpital de Saint-Louis, Marie-Julia Sinédia fut aussi une militante active du Parti communiste réunionnais. Elle a participé à de multiples campagnes électorales auprès de Léon de Lépervanche, Hyppolite Piot, ancien maire de Saint-Louis, tout comme elle a participé également à la vente et à la diffusion de "Témoignages" (elle en est toujours abonnée) qui fut longtemps, en même temps que son livre de messe, sa principale lecture. À sa façon, elle fut plus qu’un témoin engagé de son temps : elle en fut aussi actrice.

... et de la discrimination Mariée en 1915 à Pierre Sinédia, mère de deux enfants (un garçon et une fille), elle a su allier avec rigueur sa vie de mère, d’épouse, de travailleuse et de militante politique dans les grands combats, notamment pour la départementalisation ou contre la fraude électorale. Cet engagement, c’était aussi sa façon à elle de dire non à la misère, à la discrimination sous toutes ses formes. Aujourd’hui encore, même si ses facultés physiques ont diminué, elle garde encore toute sa mémoire et se tient informée de l’actualité, distillant de temps en temps un petit commentaire sur le temps qui passe ou sur l’évolution des mœurs, sur le manque de respect des valeurs familiales de la part des nouvelles générations... Et si son âge vénérable influe sur son état physique, diminuant notamment son autonomie personnelle depuis deux ans, Marie-Julia Sinédia ne suit aucun traitement particulier... à part des pastilles pour la gorge. Sans doute est-ce là le résultat d’une hygiène de vie irréprochable mais aussi de cet optimisme en la vie qui ne la quitte jamais. "C’est quelqu’un qui a beaucoup donné d’amour dans sa vie et qui positive toujours", affirme une des infirmières qui s’occupent quotidiennement d’elle. Si l’on cherche - vainement - des secrets ou des recettes de longévité, Marie-Julia Sinédia affirme, elle, que le secret tient dans sa foi en Dieu et se voit bien vivre jusqu’à "au moins 115 ans". Et pourquoi pas ? Jusqu’à présent, ça ne lui a pas trop mal réussi... Et si, en pareille occasion, il est coutume de souhaiter bon anniversaire, nous sacrifions bien volontiers à la tradition. Sans oublier, pour toute sa vie, ses engagements, sa générosité, de lui dire un grand merci.

131.96.70.164 01:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Unfortunately my French skills are subpar. This article does not mean anything to me. This is ENGLISH Wikipedia. If you want to prove her notability, then show us something that we can all understand.--Thomas.macmillan 02:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. It's not just because you can't understand French this person would be not notable, dear Thomas. Extremely sexy 12:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. "If it were so easy, why isn't everyone doing it?". I wrote there is nothing notable about existing, and that is exactly what we are all doing. I fail to see how this can be described as hypocrisy. QuiteUnusual 23:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The chances of living to 113 are about 1 in 250 million. Please tell me how that makes someone not notable. Also, suggesting that living to 113 is just 'existing' begs the question...then why doesn't everyone 'exist' to 113? I'll bet you can't do it. 131.96.70.164 01:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Statistics do not make notability. If you won a lottery with odds of 1 in 250 million, you wouldn't be notable, just lucky. QuiteUnusual 22:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet we see reports of lottery winners in the news every day. Even that misses the point, though: a lottery winner hasn't been through the history that someone who lived 113 years has. Further, a lottery is an 'all or nothing' draw, but living to 113 is the cumulative result of luck and right efforts. Also, the story began drawing interest at age 109, so the story ran for four years. Thus, I think for historical reference's sake, it makes sense to keep this. Don't agree? What about the Delany sisters?131.96.70.158 00:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Firstly the Category:Supercentenarians justifies the importance of age on WP and secondly a similar category based on France/country would definitely have this article included. IA (talk) 07:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.