Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James S. Rickards High School
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was keep. - Mailer Diablo 10:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] James Rickards High School
Non-notable high school. JW1805 17:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Comment - Please come and comment in ongoing discussion at WP:SCH. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 10:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep per wikipedia:Schools/Arguments#Keep. Happily, these days users can rely on wikipedia not to destroy information on verifiable high schools. Kappa 17:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Delete Not only non-notable, but below average academics. Durova 18:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yes I can see that we should only cover the best schools, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia by and for the elite. Kappa 18:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Frustration of continual school debates is getting to people - it's not like Kappa to be sarcastic. But I don't think he's being serious here either :-) Dlyons493 Talk 19:58, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- I am totally serious. If wikipedia only takes "above average schools" then people who attend(ed) "below average schools" will have no reason to feel the project is for them. Kappa 20:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Just like people who are/were in bands that haven't made it, blog authors that CNN haven't noticed and politicians who haven't been elected are all boycotting this project in droves. Oh, and token delete - the article may not be deleted, but damned if I'm letting inclusionists claim 'consensus'. --Last Malthusian 09:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Those people are exclude because no-one wants to look them up. If you start excluding things that people do want to look up because they aren't good enough for wikipedia, you will alienate anyone who tried. I find the idea of an elitist wikipedia really repulsive myself, not something I'd really enjoy spending my time with. Kappa 10:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- What logic leads you to the conclusion that someone will want to look up their local school on Wikipedia, but never a local band? --Last Malthusian 16:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- Those people are exclude because no-one wants to look them up. If you start excluding things that people do want to look up because they aren't good enough for wikipedia, you will alienate anyone who tried. I find the idea of an elitist wikipedia really repulsive myself, not something I'd really enjoy spending my time with. Kappa 10:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Just like people who are/were in bands that haven't made it, blog authors that CNN haven't noticed and politicians who haven't been elected are all boycotting this project in droves. Oh, and token delete - the article may not be deleted, but damned if I'm letting inclusionists claim 'consensus'. --Last Malthusian 09:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- I am totally serious. If wikipedia only takes "above average schools" then people who attend(ed) "below average schools" will have no reason to feel the project is for them. Kappa 20:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Frustration of continual school debates is getting to people - it's not like Kappa to be sarcastic. But I don't think he's being serious here either :-) Dlyons493 Talk 19:58, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- A school can be noteworthy for many reasons besides academics. It could be architecturally significant. It could win sports championships. It could run a significant charity drive. It could earn a place in Guinness World Records. What I am saying, as with any other local institution of similar size is that it needs to set itself apart from the crowd in some way. Failing to provide adequate basic education only makes it more insignificant. Don't you think it would serve the purposes of education better if a school could aspire to Wikipedia inclusion? Durova 22:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Failing to provide adequate basic education makes a school much more signficant if most schools do provide it. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be rewards or incentives for the subject, they are supposed to be a resource for people who want to understand the world better. I don't know if excluding schools for low performance would serve the purpose of education better, but it would certainly motivate a lot of vandalism. Kappa 01:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- By what logic is any obscure institution, academic or otherwise, rendered noteworthy by failure at its primary mission? Spectacular failure may invite derision. Do you suppose this qualifies? Durova 04:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- You yourself said "it needs to set itself apart from the crowd in some way". I didn't realize you meant in good way, as if wikipedia is some kind of beauty contest. Kappa 14:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Earning a D score from the Florida Dept. of Education isn't particularly unusual, for what it's worth. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a claim to notability, but that's only if you're worried about individual notability. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 14:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well one reason I strongly oppose trying to apply notability to schools is that people consider "less than average academics" as making a school less notable, guaranteeing a systemic bias I would find it hard to live with. Kappa 14:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- A good point. In the (unfortunately unlikely) case that a WP:SCH proposal that required notability was ratified, it would need to have clear criteria. While I disagree that all schools should be included, a school guideline would need to be consistent, with any inconsistencies erring on the side of inclusion. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 14:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Other positive factors may discount academics. A school in a depressed neighborhood whose faculty and students build houses for Habitat for Humanity could be notable. The oldest schoolhouse in New England would be notable for historic reasons, regardless of academics. A school for homeless children in Ghana could be notable for its humanitarian mission. However it is special pleading to protest that quality performance should not be one basis for evaluation. Wikipedia does not feature every film of 1942. We feature Casablanca.
- Hmm by that logic wikipedia shouldn't feature every Simpsons episode. Kappa 23:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- No, it really shouldn't. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 06:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- So we should be going back to the stone age, despite the Jimbo quote in m:wiki is not paper. Kappa 01:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a directory, either, of television episodes or anything else. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:27, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- So we should be going back to the stone age, despite the Jimbo quote in m:wiki is not paper. Kappa 01:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- No, it really shouldn't. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 06:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm by that logic wikipedia shouldn't feature every Simpsons episode. Kappa 23:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Other positive factors may discount academics. A school in a depressed neighborhood whose faculty and students build houses for Habitat for Humanity could be notable. The oldest schoolhouse in New England would be notable for historic reasons, regardless of academics. A school for homeless children in Ghana could be notable for its humanitarian mission. However it is special pleading to protest that quality performance should not be one basis for evaluation. Wikipedia does not feature every film of 1942. We feature Casablanca.
- A good point. In the (unfortunately unlikely) case that a WP:SCH proposal that required notability was ratified, it would need to have clear criteria. While I disagree that all schools should be included, a school guideline would need to be consistent, with any inconsistencies erring on the side of inclusion. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 14:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well one reason I strongly oppose trying to apply notability to schools is that people consider "less than average academics" as making a school less notable, guaranteeing a systemic bias I would find it hard to live with. Kappa 14:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Earning a D score from the Florida Dept. of Education isn't particularly unusual, for what it's worth. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a claim to notability, but that's only if you're worried about individual notability. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 14:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- You yourself said "it needs to set itself apart from the crowd in some way". I didn't realize you meant in good way, as if wikipedia is some kind of beauty contest. Kappa 14:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- By what logic is any obscure institution, academic or otherwise, rendered noteworthy by failure at its primary mission? Spectacular failure may invite derision. Do you suppose this qualifies? Durova 04:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Failing to provide adequate basic education makes a school much more signficant if most schools do provide it. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be rewards or incentives for the subject, they are supposed to be a resource for people who want to understand the world better. I don't know if excluding schools for low performance would serve the purpose of education better, but it would certainly motivate a lot of vandalism. Kappa 01:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yes I can see that we should only cover the best schools, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia by and for the elite. Kappa 18:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - does not meet any deletion criteria. Turnstep 18:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep all valid High Schools. — RJH 18:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- So every one of the 10's of thousands of virtually identical high schools in the US should have its own Wikipedia article? Dear God! --JW1805 21:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yes. Wikipedia is not paper. High school is a notable period in many people's lives, and each typically affects many thousands of people. If we can have individual articles on television show episodes then I see no reason not to document High Schools. Anyway this argument has been rehashed many times and I see no reason to change my vote. Sorry. — RJH
- It is a near certainty that that is going to happen with in few years, so you will have to try to live with it. CalJW 21:59, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Would having those articles be a bad thing? I like the idea of there being a lot of useful information in Wikipedia. Factitious 00:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Not only nationwide: this is the world wide web. I suppose there are hundreds of thousands of primary and secondary schools. Imagine the number in China alone. Many schools have identical names. You may have the pleasure of disambiguating them. Durova 18:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- I have set up disambiguation for school articles before, in fact. It's not very difficult. If you're aware of some other schools called "James Rickards High School," let me know, and I will do the same here. Factitious 01:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Not only nationwide: this is the world wide web. I suppose there are hundreds of thousands of primary and secondary schools. Imagine the number in China alone. Many schools have identical names. You may have the pleasure of disambiguating them. Durova 18:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- So every one of the 10's of thousands of virtually identical high schools in the US should have its own Wikipedia article? Dear God! --JW1805 21:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep - if anything it's more notable for allegedly doing "poorly" - as it's fuel to the controversy that's raging now over standardized tests and the No School Board Left Standing Act. FCYTravis 20:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- All FL schools get a rating, and a lot of them got D's (or even F's). That doesn't make this one notable. --JW1805 21:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep Nominating high schools is pointless and disruptive. CalJW 21:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- delete another NN school Pete.Hurd 22:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Another NNN school. --Centauri 00:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. Nominator did not suggest any downside to keeping this article. Keeping it has the advantage that we retain accurate and verifiable information. Factitious 00:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep for my reasons, see here. Xoloz 04:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Bicycle. Get serious.--Nicodemus75 08:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. per wikipedia:Schools/Arguments#Keep. --Vsion 10:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Delete per nominator. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Comment Please visit Wikipedia talk:Schools and help strike a consensus on school articles. Denni☯ 23:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep as part of the fight [personal attack removed]. The mere fact of something's existence makes it worthy of an article. Kurt Weber 23:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
- Please be aware that there exists a tightly structured definition of Wikipedia:Vandalism.
- You have been warned that comments which label everyone with whom you disagree as vandals are beyond uncivil and are attacks.
- If you persist in this line of attack it is probable that a request for comment will be filed.
brenneman(t)(c) 00:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, and a Comment: The name of this school is James S. Rickards High School and should be moved accordingly at the end of this AFD. Mike H (Talking is hot) 03:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep and please be aware that I have moved this for you Mike Halterman. Yamaguchi先生 07:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, notable. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Delete nn school. I wish we could follow fr.wp where the threshold for inclusion actually counts for seomthing. Dottore So 15:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, per developing consensus at WP:SCH. We keep all verifiable highschools now.Gateman1997 18:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- keep please we keep all high schools that can be verified now Yuckfoo 00:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep, As a student who attends this high school, I dont think its nonimportant. However, some may see it that way. But is there any need to get rid of it? Below average academics? Yearly we attend and get top 5 in Mu Alpha Theta entirely due to our IB Program. Get your story straight. We may have poor overall academics, but we have some of the best students in the nation roaming through our halls year after year.
- That's interesting, is there convenient way we can verify it so we can put it in the article? Kappa 01:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Although the results for the 2005 Convention haven't been posted, the results for the Florida convention are up, as you'll see, our students are consistently near the top or are at the top. www.musnews.tk
- That's interesting, is there convenient way we can verify it so we can put it in the article? Kappa 01:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Keep as per Wikipedia:Schools/Arguments#Keep. Silensor 00:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Delete no independent sources --redstucco 09:27, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- LOL, and your point would be—? Are you implying that www.rickards.leon.k12.fl.us is not a reliable source of information? Have you any idea how many articles there are on Wikipedia with *ZERO* sources cited? —RaD Man (talk) 09:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, and that's a big problem in an encyclopedia that does not rest on the authority of its contributors. However, even though it is true that many articles are not in accord with Wikipedia's policy on citing sources nobody has suggested that that is inappropriate policy. And, although people in these school debates keep asserting that verifiability should be the only criterion for inclusion, What Wikipedia is Not would seem to say otherwise. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- www.musnews.tk is governed by FAMAT (Florida Association of Mu Alpha Theta) and is part of the National Mu Alpha Theta organization. I think thats pretty credible.
- Keep. www.rickards.leon.k12.fl.us works for me. —RaD Man (talk) 09:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
