Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Internet brigades (2nd nomination)

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[edit] Internet brigades

Internet brigades (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Original research, Misattribution, False translation, Undue weight and Weasel words, POV fork from previously deleted article, attack page Original version of previously deleted article Vlad fedorov 05:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• First of all, nothing has changed really in the article. The only thing that changed is defenition. And again it is original research. Where and who named those hoax russian teams "internet brigades"? Biophys linked originally to the Guradian article about China, but there is no any labelling of that thing in China. Guradian uses the term "army of secret comentators". Later after the article was nominated for deletion, Biophys has added a link to Polyanskaya article "Commissars of the internet". And again we see that throughout the whole text a term "brigade" is used meaning "team". Only once the term "web-brigade" is used. Looking onto other sources - we see that there is no such term which was used by Biophys. Conclusion, the term and the name for the article is an original research by Biophys which is not found in its sources.
• Second, Biophys again publishes Sections "Behaviour" and "Tactics" - they haven't changed even and are ridiculously worded. According to them, every man in the internet who supports Putin - is a member of KGB "internet team". It is stupid... They abuse directly other users in Wikipedia.
• Third, the article in Russian Wikipedia directly shows in its infobox that "Internet teams" are conspiracy theory and the whole thing is based on claims of few people, namely - Polyanskaya, Krivov and Lomko - authors of the article "Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer". Nowhere on this article the information about conspiracy theory is indicated.
• Fourth, like the other article it is totally dedicated to Russia. Even adding some original research comparisons with China didn't help - the article is totally about Russia. For example. original research is all that Biophys published in the Section "Recent developments" nothing is said in the sources about the subject of the article - internet teams.
• Fifth, the defenition of internet teams is totally original research. Nowhere you coud find that "intenet teams" are waging state-sponcored information warfare. Indeed, the word "warfare" is totally POV, except original research. Nowhere in sources you find that this is a warfare, and is against "blogs" or "political bloggers" - I have already pointed many times that nowhere in Russian sources you could find a word "Blog".
• Sixth, false translation and original research in that "internet brigades" are working against blogs.
• Seventh, this article is a POV fork of the deleted article Internet Troll Squads which was twice deleted: AfD and deletion review. Here you could find the original version of the article Internet troll squads.
• Eighth, Tygodnik Powszechny actually writes that "We don’t know it for certain (tracing a source of the attack failed). Only questions and assumptions remain and we are unable to verify them". Then it writes "According to Polish specialists in Russian affairs", the names of these are not disclosed, so it may be just Polish KGB disinformation and an act of Poland aggresion against Russia. Moreover, the first voting at AfD was rigged by Biophys and his Polish friends canvassing outside the Wikipedia. Vlad fedorov 04:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per abovementioned. Vlad fedorov 05:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep the allegations are supported by the sources. I do not remember the prev. article, but I see that this is not devoted to any one country. I have been canvassed to oppose this article, as I believe have a number of others. I have never been in contact with biophys. Entirely on my own account, I judge it honest reporting, appropriate for WP. I can understand the POV that would wish to pretend that the methods of the KGB have not continued to the present. The very attempt to suppress this article might perhaps be taken to indicated otherwise.DGG 05:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference.Vlad fedorov 06:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

English translation of reference 2 (first publication on this subject) say: "web-brigades". "Internet brigades" is a better wording in my opinion. But this can be easily corrected and not a reason for deletion. Russian version also calls them "web-brigades" or "forum brigades". Biophys 07:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong!!! Reference 2 uses term "brigades", only once it says "web brigade". So you have confirmed that you've done original research, because you cited no sources for your "internet brigades". Thank you so much. Moreover reference 2 is published on blog, so it is violation of Wikipedia policies to use blog entries.Vlad fedorov 08:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Original Russian article is a reliable source. Providing English translation is not neccessary, although desiarable. So everything is consistent with WP policies.Biophys 14:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Original Russian article is an immigrant advertising newpaper with low circulation. English translation is from blog and falsifies Russian text. Moreover, you, Biophys has added to the original research a lot of texts not relevant.Vlad fedorov 15:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Well referenced, notable phenomena, former POV problems eliminated. For an article about what is in essence an ongoing intelligence operations by a major power, good job.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Czesc Piotrus. Could you cite where the term "internet brigades" is taken from? Please give me the reference.Vlad fedorov 06:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Merge with Internet censorship. The problem I have with this article is that a lot of things I see in here are "alleged" or "supposedly." I can't see how an article like this can stand on its' own with all of that text being used. However, it would be worth noting this in an article about Internet censorship in the Russian Federation, or on censorship in general, since while some nations are also mentioned, this is heavily about Russia. Notable subject, but just presented in the wrong format. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd support that if not for the fact that in addition to censorship this article also describes information manipulation (adding false info, etc.) - which goes outside the definition of censorship. Last time I suggested the name Online information manipulation by Russian intelligence (or similar) - this would probably be better than merge. But now that the article talks about Chine and other countries... I am not sure about the best new name.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  06:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per CSD G4: Recreation of a deleted page. There is really nothing to discuss, this article is a blatant hoax and OR about a non-existing phenomenon. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 12:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You are telling this is a hoax. Among all cited sources, there is only one (Usupovsky) that claims this to be a "conspiracy theory" (not a hoax). So, this is small minority opion, and it was described as such. I agree that originally submitted stub was not good. So, I worked a lot to improve the article. Now it is significantly bigger, well-referenced, less POV, etc. This is exactly what WP rules ask us to do: create interesting articles supported by multiple reliable sources. Of course, it can be improved further.Biophys 14:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• delete. It's pure conspiracy theory, and the article treats it as reality. {removed my prev. comment} ellol 20:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Rules say: verifiability, not truth. No one is proving anything here. There are many complicated phenomena and controversial subjects described in WP. How to deal with them? Do not invent or research anything yourself. Simply follow reliable sources whatever they say. It is exactly what I did. Your are talking about "absense of any research". Yes, I did not do any original research of my own. And I am not suppose to judge research of others. I only have to make sure that the sources are reliable, and their content is properly described in this artice. If you can provide any reliable sources which say: this particular reserach and claims made by Polyanskaya, Svirsky, journalists from Guardian and reports by New Times and grani.ru are wrong - such sources can be cited in the article. I found only one such source: claims by Usupovsky (with regard to only publication by Polyanskaya), and it is included. Biophys 14:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not truth? Thank you. I do not have to reject nonsense. There are no names in sourced articles, no direct evidences. All is easy. Economic growth => spread of internet => internet hooligans. Journalists — liberal democratic journalists — encountered them and wrote article about internet brigades. Fun? Not really. Fair? Not at all. ellol 20:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep (I am creator of this article). I will answer to AfD nominator's claims at the talk page.Biophys 14:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep. The article still has bad title and requires massive cleanup: I have to agree that it dangerously close to original research by mixing/matching different phenomena into one text: Russia + China + CyberArmy. Nevertheless the organized intereference into internet opinion flow is an observable and non-surprizing fact or opinion. `'mikka 18:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Referenced. But possibly bad title. --Lysy^talk 18:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - once again, this article is still about as good as it was before. I'm still not convinced this is at all a notable phenomenon, since the key sources are very slim, and it smells like WP:OR, and the creating editor seems to have some kind of argument to be made using the pages. However, none of that really matters, since there's no coherent reason presented to remove it. --Haemo 20:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)