Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gregory Charles Royal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 20:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gregory Charles Royal

I've listed this one for deletion because it seems an obvious instance of using Wikipedia for self-promotion. The silly games over the guy's age are irritating enough (is this meant to make it look like it came from an independent source? it reads like a press release), not to mention obvious spam like the link to a searchpage on Google. ND 16:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

SOURCE INFORMATION LISTED BELOWbethbar511:37 6 October, 2006

abstain - Changing my opinion based on the rewrite and other comments (was previously delete) --PdDemeter 17:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

keep- Article has been re-written. However,non-notable flag is inaccurate. Ndorward seems to have some personal issue with Royal. He/she erased a reference from Geri Allen that she first recorded in DC on Royal's debut album Dream Come True 1979, citing it as false. FYI Gregory Charles Royal, Geri Allen Clarence Seay Warren Taylor and Jeff Corbett personnel. Reference the album via the song Dancer on web search. Internet Broadway Data Base, Duke Ellington Orchestra albums on major labels and Biographical Encyclopedia of Jazz etc etc. are all legitimate. Article information is factual. bethbar5 20:55, 29 September 2006

I'm still voting delete. Sure, Royal has played with notable musicians, & was in the posthumous Ellington band decades after Ellington's death, & he's in comprehensive specialist jazz resources like Feather's book. But playing with notable musicians doesn't in itself make you a notable musician. -- I deleted the ref. to him in the Allen entry because no details were provided about the recording, & it didn't turn up in AMG or in a discography of Geri Allen's recordings that I consulted. Fair enough: a 1979 recording would certainly make it her first recorded date, though the album seems to be extremely obscure. I'd glad to see you've deleted some of the more obvious puffery in the article ("renaissance man" &c &c), but I'm still not convinced Royal is deserving of a page, especially when it starts to have ripple effects on the pages of major jazz musicians (since irrelevant links to him keep getting added to pages of players like Art Blakey). --ND 04:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

keep. This is my final response. To repond to the previous comment, one can simply find tons of artists on Wi that have far less creditials. As far as the critertia set by Wi on what constitutes notable, Royal meets this test. Not to mention that he is the judge on America's Hot Musician, a nationally distributed program, that is part of the Plight of American Music Program being distributed to schools nationwide. He also has two charting pop songs to his credit Trust the Love You See and Can't Let Love by Ariel... 13:31, 30 September bethbar5

Amicus curiae. Some of the notable jazz trombonists of the recent generations are (in alphabetical order) Clifton Anderson, Robin Eubanks, Wycliffe Gordon, Delfeayo Marsalis, and Steve Turre, but I haven't heard of Royal travelling in the same musical circles as those guys. • Shadowhillway 17:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

OK it's been 5 days. Currently we've got one "keep" (the main editor of the page, Bethbar5), one "delete" (me), a delete changed to an abstain, & a comment (rather than a vote) pointing out that Royal's pretty obscure. Any further thoughts, anyone? --ND 22:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Does the apathy say something? AMG doesn't have an entry for Royal. The Art Blakey chronology, a well-regarded source among jazz researchers, does not mention Royal. The two articles that link to this article, List of jazz trombonists and Mercer Ellington, were edited to link after the creation of this article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, with the intent of including encyclopedic knowledge. There are other avenues for hosting a biography on the Web, so I will vote to delete. • Shadowhillway 23:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Additional Comment because of additional comments by others...This twisted logic that because Royal does not travel in the circles of musicians, who by the way are very respectful of Royal's work, who are strictly "jazz trombonists" entirely misses the point that Royal is MORE than just a jazz trombonist and he is not seeking inclusion as a jazz trombonist-even though he could. Not only has he performed in many of the same bands as the afforementioned (Turre and Royal were in the CBA ensemble), Turre, Eubanks, Anderson and Royal toured with World of Trombones etc in addition to Slide Hamptons comments which are in a Downbeat Magazine ad in May 2006)

What makes Royal stand out in addition to the additions to the article is that he is in the social front of music TODAY with American Youth Symphony and his program America's Hot Musician which is a significant program for music education and awareness. It seems the contributors are jazz affectionados. I submit how many average people know of any of the musicians you have cited-including Art Blakey. Notability and obscurity should be considered from a neutral vantage point and the totality of the artist. bethbar5

Well, the reason why Royal's entry came to my attention in the first place was the efforts of himself or his friends (I assume you're in some way affiliated with him?) to associate his name with the jazz entries, through inserting contrived references to him in the entries of well-known jazz musicians like Art Blakey, Mercer Ellington & Geri Allen. Anyway, there are no entries in Wikipedia for the American Youth Symphony or America's Hot Musician (I dread to say this, as I get the feeling that I'm unintentionally inviting their creation....), so I guess they're currently obscurer than Art Blakey. Sounds fine to me. --ND 04:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

ResponseThe reason the links to others was put in in the first place was because of the Wi message that the article contained no links and should be added (check the history of the article).Accordingly, they were added. If this was done in error it was not meant to be. However this does not diminish Royal's accomplishments regardless of whether he is a "widely" recorded as the trombonists mentioned. As we know that artistic quality does not necessarily correlate with a discography. American Youth Symphony and America's Hot Musician are not ripe enough for addition at this time. 10:00, 3 October 2006 bethbar5

"Not ripe enough" meaning "not actually broadcast" I assume? A websearch reveals the show is only set to debut next year. This is getting ridiculous: you're suggesting he's important because of something he's done that hasn't even yet taken place (i.e. the future broadcast of a show). This is precisely why the page reeked of self-promotion. --ND 14:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Duh and you have a problem with that? You obviously have a bone to pick at any cost. Why would a page go up on a show that hasn't yet aired?...And correction, YOU are suggesting he is not important merely because he has a career of playing with major productions,bands and musicians in addition to social music educational work...Your suggestion is more ridiculous. Accordingly, I vote to close this circular "discussion" out TODAY.... 12:41 , 3 October, 2006 bethbar5

• Delete, unless the claims are sourced and the puffiness is toned down. Can't verify the supposed LA Times and WaPo feature articles. ~ trialsanderrors 08:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

articles dates are being added today. Have tentatively added the years and months. Wash Post article about his career , Art Blakey relationship, Master's graduation from Howard and concert with Geri Allen as sideman and LA Times about his Game show pilot Pick Up 6 (not listed in this article)bethbar5 10:09, 6 October 2006

Requested Source Information

1.Washington Post "Show" section Sunday October 6, 1991 title "Limelight: Jazzman Gregory Charles Royal" by Dana Thomas includes photo, refernce to relationship with Art Blakey and upcoming concert with Geri Allen as sideman.

2.Los Angeles Times "Valley" section Tuesday, February 11, 1997 title"The Prince of the Pickup Picks Up the Pieces" by Scott Harris includes story about Royal's move to Los Angeles and his Game Show pilot.

3. Afro American Newspaper December 1, 1979 title "18-year-old trombonist produces, records album" by Roger Glass includes story about Royal's life and album personnel which included Geri Allen as sideman.

4. Downbeat Student Recording Honors http://www.coas.howard.edu/music/HUJE/awards.htm Royal Outstanding Performance and Larry Seals and Roger Woods both won performing compositions by Royal- "Dream Come True" and "Before You"

5. Black Radio Exclusive Magazine (BRE) May 15, 1992 title GCR Records: The Royal Famiy by Terry Muggleton includes story about Royal's label, new release and educational views

5. Various Concert/recording Reviews, blurbs Mike Joyce, W. Royal Stokes,Zan Stewart BRE Magazine, Jet Magazine

6. Pick Up Six Game Show TV Guide listing Nov-8-14 (Los Angeles) Wed/Early Thur. 2am Channel 13 UPN KCOP #83771

7. Neilson Los Angeles Overnight Ratings Wednesday November 12, 1997 Pick Up 6 Game Show Rating 1.5 with an 11 share.

8. Royal's Broadway Credits at http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?ID=100371

9. Royal's work on Arsenio Hall Show (1992), Tony Awards (1992), Universal Pictures release Life(1999) -American Federtion of Musicians Los Angeles and New York locals

10. Art Blakey Performances, Blues Alley Wash DC -Winter 1978 , Anacostia Park Wash.,DC Spring 1978, Village Gate NYC-Summer 1978, Village Vanguard NYC Summer 1978, live radio broadcast Dino's Philadelphia Fall 1978 Wallace Roney present.

11. It's a Hardbop Life links http://www.wbgo.org/events/calendar/?caldate=10/23/2004

12. Royal links with top musicians Royal lead the JJ Johnson Tribute at Birdland NYC in 2001 http://www.trombone.org/events/viewevents.asp?EventID=115

Royal lead the weekly Art Blakey Jazz Messengers Revue at Birdland NYC in 2001 http://www.nypress.com/14/28/listings/musiclists.cfm

13. RPM Magazine Volume 62 No. 10 October 9, 1995 chart position (page 6) and review (page 20)for Ariel produced and written by Royal 13:47 6, October 2006 bethbar5

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.