Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Florence High School (Alabama)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 01:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Florence High School (Alabama)

Florence High School (Alabama) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Small high school. No assertions of notability. Prod contested. ReverendG 00:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - there seems to be a general consensus on Wikipedia that high schools are always notable, and that middle and elementary schools are not. Any high school of any reasonable size will eventually generate mainstream press and notable alumni. --Hyperbole 01:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Actually recent trends seem to make that claim difficult to accept. Among other issues, more highschools have been closed as "no consensus, defaulting to keep" than "keep" and recently some have even been deleted. There is therefore no such general precedent. Furthermore, I am unable to find much in the way of mainstream press on the matter. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • There is no general consensus on Wikipedia that high schools are always notable. Vegaswikian 21:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, although I disagree that middle and elementary schools are not always notable. Currently all towns/cities/villages/communities are automatically considered notable - even if they're just a spot in the road. It stands to reason that a city's municipal functions - such as public schools - are included. Until there is an official policy/guideline on schools (currently there is not), there's no basis for deleting this, nor is there any basis for saying "No assertations of notability" when no one knows what constitutes notability for a school here yet. Highfructosecornsyrup 02:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep (after edit conflict) Even as I am not at all certain that I concur in the extant consensus that high schools are presumptively notable (toward the existence of which, see, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents#Education), and even as I think the present proposed schools policy likely properly delineates the fashion in which we ought to treat high schools, there is surely not yet a plain consensus for the promulgation of WP:SCHOOL qua guideline, and I don't think any individual AfD to be the place at which we ought to broach the issue. Joe 02:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No, AFD is exactly where you should apply the criteria that you support. You've explicitly stated that you support WP:SCHOOL, yet you haven't actually applied it here at all. Indeed, your rationale makes no mention of the actual subject at hand whatsoever. You've done nothing but give a bare vote, in effect. Please stop voting and start discussing the subject at hand, with reference to our policies and guidelines. This is not a vote. Uncle G 10:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per our high-schools-are-notable precedent. --- RockMFR 03:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep another school notablity question. I'm one of those people who believe all schools are notable. Atlantis Hawk 03:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Any reason why? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete NO school (other than colleges) are inherently notable and nothing about this school stands out. No notability is asserted. People should stop thinking that all high schools are notable. TJ Spyke 03:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No assertion of notability. No independent reliable sources. No actual content beyond a directory entry. Fails WP:SCHOOLS3 and even WP:SCHOOLS. No policy- or guideline-based rationales for keeping have yet been presented. Finally, the "consensus" cited by most keep !votes above clearly does not exist when the AfD record is examined; a significant majority of school AfD nominations are either deleted or kept via no consensus. Actual keeps are a minority, and the "all schools are notable" argument self-evidently lacks consensus. Would not oppose a merge/redirect to the appropriate school district or locality article, however. Shimeru 04:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, I believe that at least all high schools are notable. Terence Ong 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment-Another interesting conflict that certainly has happened before and will again. Person A says "there is no way all high schools are notable. People should stop thinking that." Person B says "I believe all high schools are notable." Where do we go from there? Is there actual policy here? There isn't, right? So it has to get duked out again and again?--Dmz5 05:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That's why closing admins should look at the comments and not just votes. Voting Keep and just saying that you think all schools are notable isn't enough and should pretty much disqualify your vote since that isn't a reason to keep an article. That wouldn't fly on any other AFD, so why should it be allowed on school related AFD's? TJ Spyke 06:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • That argument is made when places are put up for AfD, and no-one seems to think that it's a problem there. Anyway, I see "delete because it's a school" arguments too so I don't see "keep because it's a school" as being less valid. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Many of us aren't happy with the attitude towards places and in any event if someone did argue "delete because it's a school" that would be just as invalid and should be given correspondingly low weight by the closing admins. There seems to be an almost two wrongs making a right attitude towards the above comment. In any event, the closest I've seen anyone come to "delete because it's a school" are people who when pressed actually mean "this is a school, schools have no inherent notability so delete as default setting" or something like that which is more of an issue of poor phrasing and shorthand than anything else. JoshuaZ 23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete All schools are notable to the immediate community and those attending them--my elementary school was the most lasting positive experience in my life. But this article does not assert notability,nor could it prove it. Many many other high schools, including some of perhaps equal intrinsic merits, are more fully done, and demonstrate the reason they're here. I do not think we have a procedure for article on probation--improve it by this time next moth but that may be what we need. In its absence, the best we can do is delete, with a suggestion that the resubmit. The school district idea is a good one, but I think the se articles are inspired by local patriotism or perhaps school projects. DGG 06:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable as the main school of the city as the result of Coffee and Henry A. Bradshaw High School merging. Would like to know the backstory of those schools as well, as they undoubtedly have a story to tell. Silensor 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not an oral history project. I don't think James Agee is going to lend significance to this article.--Dmz5 08:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I gotta vote keep on this one, to me schools ore notable. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Care to explain why? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Against my better judgement. This is an AMERICAN school. If we were talking about a school in Myanmar, would it still be kept, or would the general consensus be that it's non-notable? The idea of generating notable alumini is very America-centric, if not Western-centric. Black-Velvet 13:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment You're not really saying "keep because it's American," are you? Shimeru 15:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. I fail to see how intelligent editors and administrators can advocate for a policy that says "all high schools are notable". This simply makes no sense to me whatsoever. How is a high school automatically notable? It would be notable if, for instance, an important legal case was fought regarding a policy at said school---for instance, Brown v. Board of Education. And, certainly, there are a whole host of other reasons a high school might be notable. But, automatic notability? Please! ---Charles 15:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - appears to be a school. Trollderella 16:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• so? JoshuaZ 02:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep — Here we go again. It's a valid high school and it meets my personal criteria for notability. — RJH (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Which are? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - appears to be a school. —Centrx→talk • 16:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment That isn't a reason for deletion or keeping by itself. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Close this discussion, it appears there will not be any consensus. Just H 17:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Perhaps not, but that's by no means clear, particularly if the closing admin decides to ignore the profusion of WP:ILIKEIT !votes. Shimeru 17:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Wikipedia:Schools3 looks good, and this article doesn't meet that standard. -- Alan McBeth 17:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to Florence's article. I think almost any USA high school can be shown to be notable with some research, but WP:V trumps editors' personal all/none standards. This article has no claim to meet any criterion except WP:ITSASCHOOL and no verifiable sources at all, not even a trivial "local paper reports board meeting". Given the ongoing lack of school-guideline consensus, we need to apply basic policy, starting with verifiability. Barno 18:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Articles can be merged without coming to AfD, as normal editing. Septentrionalis 18:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, when there is consensus or little likelihood of objection. But merging a school stub into its community's article is almost certain to be controversial to those who consider all schools (or all those of a certain level) to be automatically notable, so the nominator did right to bring it here for discussion. Sadly, little of the discussion is focused on how this specific topic and its current stub meets or fails to meet WP policy (as compared to either side's proposed guideline which lacks consensus). Other than an unencyclopedic "two schools merged", nobody has presented either a single reason that this particular school might be notable, nor a single source showing actual coverage by reliable sources. What's there to merge? Barno 19:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually, merging is a lot less controversial than deletion (very few people object to merging of schools). I would recommend trying it first. If someone wants to be a WP:DICK about that, an AfD nom may be appropriate at that point but I would suggest not before. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Agreed, if this becomes a redirect there is no need to bother deleting the material currently there. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the notability of high schools in general. Sharkface217 20:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • High schools are not notable in general. No where on Wikipedia has that been established and your personal opinion isn't enough. High schools have to proove their notability, which this one doesn't. TJ Spyke 21:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Just another run-of-the-mill school, nothing notable about it. Carlossuarez46 22:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all schools are notable in and of themselves (Heck, who knows...someday, they may graduate a future President!--though, Abe Lincoln was homeschooled).--MonkeyTimeBoy 22:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • And if they do graduate a future president they might become notable then and then we can have an article. Under this logic we should have biographies of all little kidss because they might grow up to be president. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I'm confused by the idea expressed in several of the above comments that there is precedent or consensus that all high schools are notable. This particular article doesn't establish the notability of the school and of the dozens or even hundreds of articles on Wikipedia considered for deletion (AFD, speedy or otherwise) every day because they don't assert the notability of their subjects, I don't see why this one (or any other article about a questionably notable school) should be kept. Anybody could make a similar plea for their pet subject. Two schools were merged - so what? This happens quite often. Extraordinary Machine 22:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I have always felt that this is exactly the danger in making the blanket statement that "all schools are notable." We don't allow the statement that all structures are notable, or all people are notable, or all books or all bands. Each one must prove its own notability. Why do we exempt schools from this? Now, granted, there are some categories that are granted instant notability, such as incorporated communities, regardless of size. This, however, is official policy. In the absence of official policy on schools, all we have to go on are the policies that DO exist, and one of those policies is that an article MUST assert its notability. "I think all schools are notable" is no better than "I think all people are notable." --Dmz5 03:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • There is no such policy that states that all articles must assert their notability or they get deleted. The solution to articles not asserting their notability is to reference them, not to delete them. JYolkowski // talk 23:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep High schools are notable per precendent. --Oakshade 07:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What precedent? Extraordinary Machine 00:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Absolutely not. Most highschool discussions end in no consensus which defaults to keep and recently highschools have been deleted and those deletions were reconfirmed on DRV. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per well written arguments by Dmz5, and by lack of arguments by keepers. Fram 15:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Florence, Alabama per WP:LOCAL (or keep if expanded), meets content policies. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per arguments given above.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 00:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as schoolcruft that fails the notability guidline on schools. Just because it is a highscool deos not make it notable, something of interest had to have actually happened in connection with the school. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. NeoFreak 03:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Wikipedia currently has no notability guideline on schools. Highfructosecornsyrup 17:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete another run of the mill, non-notable school that does not warrant encyclopedic treatment. Eusebeus 10:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Lots of opinions stated there, but where's the policy? Highfructosecornsyrup 17:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to forget that policy is not static but dynamic, consensus driven and constantly subject to reevaluation and change. I find minor Pokemon characters inherently unnotable and would vote to delete them on that basis alone. I find schools inherently unnotable and vote to delete them as such. You can disagree, but as fas as I am concerned, schools default to delete unless they are clearly and substantially noteworthy. It is quite simply a logical fallacy to argue that we somehow need to justify a decision to delete based on some reference to policy, when by the simple dictates of community-driven consensus mean that the accumulated weight of opinion one way or the other is itself sufficient. The problem, of course, is that there is no such policy regarding schools, as evidenced by the failed attempt to beat out a compromise at WP:SCHOOLS. I am happy for you to disagree with me, but don't pretend you can invalidate a large body of opinion, mine included, by demanding capricious substantiation when the very essence of the question remains a matter of outstanding debate. I don't challenge your good faith, but that smacks of hubris tinged by ignorance or dishonesty. Eusebeus 19:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Merge with Florence, Alabama. A delete will not work because the article will just be re-created by the students. If we install redirects in place of school pages, we can be sure that this sort of "article" will eventually fade away. DrKiernan 10:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or merge with Florence, Alabama - does not assert notability. There is no consensus that all schools are notable, there is consensus that some schools are notable but nothing in this article shows that this is one of them. Thryduulf 13:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or, if needed, Merge per DrKiernan. This debate has been going on long enough for the original authors or other interested parties to demonstrate notability with citations of famous alumni, historical impact, notable sports events, etc. The article has pretty much stayed the same and, as its currently written, does not indicate that the school has been involved in anything the larger world would require knowledge of. Endless blue 06:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep- This article is most certainly notable. Florence High School is a wonderful school that provides excellent eduations to over one thousand students in Florence, Alabama. Anyone who has ever walked into the doors of Florence High School knows that it is a fine learning facility. It is apparent that all Florence High School students have a close rapport with one another. The percentage of Florence students who "keep it real" is astonishingly high. Florence High School is seen by its students as "extra crunk" and many graduates have been quoted as saying that they miss the days when they had the opportunity to go to Florence High School "every day of their lives." Florence High School is a top-quality high school that should be broadcasted over the internet so that the world may know of its existance.--Andrew Davis Price 21:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not really what wikipedia was intended for - please see the encyclopedia's guidelines. If you have any questions, don't be afriad of asking.michaelCurtis ^talk+ _{contributions} 21:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I haven't made up my mind on this school but there are some references I was able to find. First, note that since there are many schools witht he same name as this one it isn't easy to go through google searches (it appears that there are Florence High Schools in at least Alabama, Missisipi, Colorado, Montana, Pensylvania, Tennesee and South Dakota). The school has what seems to be exactly one student who has done anything resembling anything of note- one Jennifer Ann Taylor who was an Intel Finalist and seems very accomplished in a variety of fields(although this lists her at a different school everything else puts her here). See [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. The school has a smattering of minor awards and students with minor scholarships such as here and two of the school's athletes have been all-american [7](I think, I may be misreading that). The school also at one point had apparently one very talented teacher [8]. However, all media mentions of the school give us little or no information. In all cases the school is mentioned in passing such as [9]. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete Unless all high schools are automatically notable, this one is not notable. I commend the probable efffort of the students to join in editing WP, and, now they have mastered the mechanics, they should be encourage to learn about finding evidence. If Andrew DP is among them, I suggest he look for some famous alumni as a first approach. The thorough investigation by JoshuaZ is a model of diligence, and comes to about as strong a proof of non-notability as one could get. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs).
• Delete. Clearly should have been a speedy as emptly. At best merge the few tidbits of information there into the school district article. There is no guideline that all high schools are notable. Fails WP:SCHOOLS3. Vegaswikian 21:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Notability not clearly demonstrated. WMMartin 17:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to say that my own view is that having "famous" alumni is not per se notable, though I recognise that some people disagree with me. Since people have to be educated somewhere, the fact that some schools produce famous people seems to me to be a random event, and thus not notable. If a school consistently produces important physicists, say, or actors, this suggests that there is something non-random and thus notable going on - perhaps the school has a special teaching process for physics, or has special skills in training aspiring actors in voice production. Something like that is notable, but just doing a job isn't. Show us how this school does something that other schools don't, and I'll gladly vote the other way. WMMartin 17:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.