Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flags of ethnic groups

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Discussion on what else to do with this article can be done on its talk page. --Coredesat 03:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags of ethnic groups

Flags of ethnic groups (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I am questioning the usefulness of this article/gallery. Galleries should not be welcome on wikipedia and should exist on commons instead.

There is also the matter of weather or not ethnicities can have flags. Flags are symbols of countries. Unless the country claims to exist the verifiability of the Flag is compromised which prompts "original research".

-- Cat ^chi? 08:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

OR issues aside, this should probably be renamed to List of cultural flags -- Cat ^chi? 12:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nomination withdrawn and page has been boldly renamed to List of cultural flags -- Cat ^chi? 16:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• Rewrite to include sources. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 09:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Follow-up question This is a good idea and I agree, but who is going to do this? If it doesn't get done within the timeframe of this AfD, should this comment be considered as a "delete" or a "keep"? As for where to get the sources, many might be found on the Image pages for each flag, but I don't have the time to do this myself. Finally, this follow-up should not be construed as criticism of Hexagon1's comment. --A. B. ^(talk) 14:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone interested and dedicated enough will surely come by and try to help if a {{sources}} template is placed there. If there are no improvements in a significant timeframe, let's say 9 months, then it can be relisted. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 12:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep- I think this could be a useful page if it is suitably referenced. Thunderwing 09:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep at least until the article's many contributors receive courtesy notifications as recommended by the AfD procedure. From looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flags of ethnic groups, this doesn't appear to have been done. The nominator's original research concern is a valid one (who decides on official flags for unofficial groupings) but I think that's more of an editorial issue than a deletion issue.--A. B. ^(talk) 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

  I think the notion of "Flags of ethnic groups" falls under Original Research. The LGB flag is widely used but it is not universal. Flags of countries represent large groups of ethnic peoples. The german flag represents the majority of the German ethnicity but not some Germans (such as the ones that live in the US with US-only citizenship) -- Cat ^chi? 12:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. First, notification is not a requirement, it is a courtesy, and is not a reason to halt an AFD. Second, flags most certainly predate the modern notion of the nation-state extant since the Peace of Westphalia, and many entities that are not countries have flags, ranging from the UN to subnational groups including states and cities, and private entities as well. It would probably be better to use this article to list the articles on ethnic group flags that are in Wikipedia. Galleries are indeed now deprecated to commons. --Dhartung | Talk 14:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

True re: courtesy notifications, but I think they help the AfD process in terms of making a good decision for Wikipedia's purposes. They also help morale and improve the perception of fairness and openness; they're something I always do when nominating an article for AfD. Finally, multiple editors have cited the need for references and concerns about original research; the existing contributors probably are the ones that would do the work and know where some of the sources are if the article is kept. As for the galleries question, that would extend beyond this page to a number of similar articles -- see Category:Ethnic flags and Category:Lists of flags. I wonder if anybody has looked at a strategy for this whole issue you've raised? I see there's a WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology; I'll post a note there. --A. B. ^(talk) 14:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Additional comment on notification: The AfD nomination procedure is very specific on edit summaries -- no edit summary was used when this article was tagged for deletion, so nobody with this article on their watchlist knows of this AfD. I note that dozens of different editors have made over 150 edits to the article and over 30 to the talk page with no mention anywhere of a need to delete this article. I'm not trying to be difficult or critical here but I do want to see the right outcome for this AfD, whatever that turns out to be. --A. B. ^(talk) 14:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete ethnic groups are usually not legal entities which is the prerequisite for the use of a flag. In some cases the flags in this category might be used generally recognized entities, but those would then belong in a different article.--Caranorn 15:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep in some form. As a gallery, it does not belong here and should be transwiki'd to Commons. As a list, it should indeed be kept, with sources included. Flags are not only symbols of countries, and it is nonsense to say they only exist for legal entities. When there is not a legal entity, there might be more ambiguity about whether it is fair to say a particular flag is the flag of a group, but this does not make the questions of OR and NPOV any harder than many topics on Wikipedia. JPD (talk) 16:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

  Sure organizations can also have flags. Red Cross has a flag. I am not saying ethnicities cant have flags. Ethnicities cant have official flags. Basically I or anyone can design a flag for my favorite ethnicity. -- Cat ^chi? 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, and if only you use the flag you design, it wouldn't be notable enough to be included. However, if it is more notable, then lack of official status (and some of these do have official status in one sense or another), is a reason not to describe the flag as an official flag, not a reason not to document the flag at all. JPD (talk) 09:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

  How does me designing a flag or someone else matter? If the flag is notable - it will be notable for other reasons than representing ethnicity. -- Cat ^chi? 12:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

  • And if you get a WP:RS to say its the flag of that ethnic group, it goes in WP, remember we work on reliable sources, not any objective truth here. Carlossuarez46 18:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, the flag may go to the article of the ethnic people. But putting them in a gallery like this makes it look like these flags represent an ethnicity universally. -- Cat ^chi? 12:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - agree wholeheartedly with JPD above. Lexicon (talk) 16:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - This, like the other flag galleries on Wikipedia, is a useful vexillological resource — much more useful than a list of text entries would be. In terms of adding sources, I question the usefulness or need of adding them to this article -- essentially an illustrated list. Instead, should they not be included on the article for the flag, or if it has no article, with on the flag image page itself? --ScottMainwaring 16:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep on condition of providing references/sources to document the adoption of the flag or its history. Acadiana is an example of this being done, a short description "adopted by the Louisiana legislature" would be how I'd put it on the page. The question of what to do about a gallery of flags is not too convincing to me, I think such is appropriate for an Encyclopedia, but if not, let's start here instead. Mister.Manticore 18:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and source it's certainly a good start of an article and if fully referenced would appear to meet all criteria for inclusion at WP. Carlossuarez46 18:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, it is just a collection of original research. --Pejman47 18:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you please explain what you mean? A lack of sources does not equal original research, and I know several of the flags could be sourced. Mister.Manticore 20:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. I've just sourced a few of them. More to follow, just a matter of finding the cites. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER}

20:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete unless it can be shown that some sort of recognized organization has indeed adopted these flags as representative of said organization. Citations can be shown for the adoption of a flag as representative by a government, corporation, or other organization. How does an ethnicity adopt a flag? And how does one determine the official representative group for said ethnicity in the event of conflicting claims? Jim Miller 20:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Your concern, while a reasonable concern on the subject of individual entries, doesn't mean there is a problem with the page. Several of the entries could be sourced to recognition by official governments (such as is the case of the Acadians I already mentioned), others might qualify by common recognition (if a bunch of sources say "This is what People X consider their ethnic flag" who are we to argue?). So, I think you might want to revise your delete statement. Mister.Manticore 00:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought about this last night, and just re-read this "article". It is not an article at all. It is a gallery, as noted in the original RfD. It might be fine as a category. If someone were to actually write something, I would suggest it is an article, but it currently has zero content. I maintain my opinion of Delete given that there really is no article here at all that discusses "Flags of ethnic groups". It's a list or a gallery, and fails WP:NOT#REPOSITORY. Jim Miller 18:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I see the distinction between gallery/article here as needless, presenting this information in visual form is quite reasonable, but if you for some reason think it needs more information on the page, that's a trivial addition already done on a couple of pages. See the category for examples. That's more of a content issue though, than a problem with the subject of the article itself. Mister.Manticore 18:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep I suspect that some of these are thingsmadeuponeday on the basis of logic not actual use, but this is for the talk page of the article. Some of the individual items may be OR but not the page as a whole. DGG 22:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Make sure the flag is well referenced and is notable (either by having gotten publicity, or by being the official symbol of a group (whether recognised as a government is not relevant) that clearly has notability). ++Lar: t/c 10:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

  Wouldn't that be a symbol of an organization rather than ethnicity? We would need a source that the flag universaly represents an ethnicity. -- Cat ^chi? 12:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

  I suppose you have a point. I'd be fine with your proposed move to List of cultural flags... in fact why not be bold, do that, and withdraw the nomination? ++Lar: t/c 21:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Patricknoddy^{TALK (reply here)|HISTORY} 14:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. No reason for deletion.Biophys 02:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Caranorn. This stuff belongs to Commons, it is not even a list, is full of OR, open to abuse of all sorts and edit-wars. Take all that stuff to Commons.. Baristarim 05:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Um, no. Commons does not need edit wars either, thanks very much. ++Lar: t/c 21:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and above. Pointless and inane to have this sort of article in an encyclopedia. Ugh. metaspheres 20:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Ugh? ++Lar: t/c 21:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep- Certainly! This is useful and interesting. I made a Coptic keyboard and used the Coptic flag as an icon. I corroborated it with an external source. No reason to delete this. -- Evertype·✆ 17:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Is a list of flags of the member states of the UN encyclopedic? Yes, I've never seen an encyclopedia that didn't have a list of such flags. This list has a different scope but the idea is the same. It just needs many more references. "List of cultural flags" sounds like a decent title. Valentinian ^{T / C} 20:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.