Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ferret legging (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep; although this is completely insane, it is also clearly not a hoax. The sources given by CosmicPenguin make this clear. --- Deville (Talk) 03:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ferret legging

Completed nomination by User:216.120.166.5, whose reasoning was: "Hoax website cited." Since that article survived a previous AfD, it may not be a hoax, but it has not improved since then. The source given is highly dubious. Thus, from me a weak delete unless a reliable source is given. --Huon 14:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Huon unless verified. It certainly looks like a hoax to me. - Smerdis of Tlön 16:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Huon. Smells like WP:HOAX. wikipediatrix 01:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

LISTEN. ITS LEGIT AND IT HURTS. GIVE THE GUY SOME CREDIT.

• Delete as possible hoax, and a miserable failure of WP:V. Resolute 02:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep If its a hoax, then it has fooled lots of folks over the years. I have a Uncle John's Bathroom Reader from the late 90s that reprinted this same article the same Outside magazine article cited. A google search for "ferret legging" listed many clones of the Outside article, as well as some legitimate sites that may have been influenced by the article [1]. This article [2] implies that it may have started as a joke, but turned into reality. On the other hand, we have sites like this [3], which doesn't seem to me like it was inspired by the Outside article in any way. I found at least one real competition [4] as well as some blog entries describing the experience (no pictures though). I would have to say that either this is a very well done hoax that has fooled absolutely everybody, or its a real activity. Either way, I think its notable enough to stick around. - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 05:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If, as you seem to be saying, this article has already appeared in print elsewhere, then this article is a copyright violation and should be deleted even more speedily. wikipediatrix 14:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Poor wording on my part. By article, I mean the Outside magazine article that inspired the wikipedia page (second sentence: "It was first brought to light by Donald Katz, in an article entitled "King of the Ferret Leggers", in the February 1983 issue of Outside magazine."). - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 22:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Seems you have to say Outside Magazine is some sort of Mad magazine for camping enthusiasts to say this is a hoax. Outside seems to be a perfeclty legitimate magazine. Incidentally, Outside recently republished the story in The Best of Outside: The First 20 Years (Vintage Departures) (Paperback). If Outside magazine is not a hoax, then this article cannot be considered a hoax. Scarykitty 06:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment An article claimed to be from the Outside Magazine, but not on that magazine's official homepage, hardly counts as a reliable source, especially as that very same text is claimed here to be from 02/92 Harper's Magazine. Everything I happened to find via Google seems to be slang dictionaries, pages claiming it to be a joke ([5], [6], note reference to Harper's Magazine), and diverse references to the article cited as a source and its author, Donald Katz. To me, that fails WP:V for a sport, and for a hoax it would need a complete rewrite (and some more authoritative source stating it realy is a hoax). Either way, the current version is not up to the standards required for a Wikipedia articla, and unless we can agree on whether it is a hoax or not, I doubt it can be improved. --Huon 16:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Its possible that the Harper Magainze is an adpated version of Katz's story - it was published a decade earlier, and many of the qutoes are identical. That might further the theory that Katz originated the hoax, but you can't deny it has legs = a modern version of the Jackalope, perhaps. - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 17:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Go to Amazon, search on "Reg Mellor", one of the sportsman profiled in the original article. Up will come the book "The Best of Outside: The First Twenty Years." It will invite you to use Amazon's online reader to click on page 145. On page 145 is the story "The King of the Ferret Leggers" by Donald R. Katz.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/sitbv3/reader/102-1395916-0836915?asin=0375703136&pageID=S04E&checkSum=Qay9li+p4Hjqen82dxkMDa33ukhiTFZNMKFo6+UQFtw= Scarykitty 09:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I found another source in the Book of Alternative Records, which added additional detail about the date and place of the world record. Plus Katz himself published "King of the Ferret Leggers and other True Stories." I added both these to the page. Incidentally, in 2005, someone linked to the Outside story on the ferret page. The talk page reflects that people thought it was "ridiculous" ("Anyone who reads that article swill immediately put things into perspective. By comparison it makes "Reefer Madness" look like a true story") and the reference was removed. But with two sources, I'm now convinced it's not a hoax and I believe the article should stay as is.

Scarykitty 10:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, mentioned in magazine, several books. Lots of results on Google. — Wackymacs 11:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete or Weak Keep but Clean Up I don't quite believe the Outside article is a hoax, but it is RIDDLED with gross factual errors-far too many to be the only reference. It describes ferrets as "a shark of the land, a piranha with feet, fur-coated evil, and the only four-legged creature in existence that kills just for kicks" and as having "the jaw musculature of a pit bull." claims that "A baby was killed and eaten in 1978" (despite the fact that ferrets weigh only 2-3 pounds) and that "little is known of the diseases carried by the ferret because veterinarians are afraid to touch them." despite ferrets having a LONG history as labratory animals. Yes ferret legging does get a lot of hits on google but almost all of them point to reprints of the Outside article. One of the non-Outside sources mentioned in a previous comment is even worse: "With claws as sharp as needles, they are also able scamper up walls and across beamed ceilings in pursuit of moths and flies." which is utterly false and seems to confuse ferrets with geckos. If this article is to remain it needs to have a better source. I am convinced that this jackass-stunt really did exist so I would rather see this article improved by having more reliable references than deleted outright, but without more and better sources it is too unverified to stand.JeffStickney 18:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have verifiable evidence of anyone other than Katz claiming to have done it? wikipediatrix 00:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Google searches would be deceptive on that because the same article that Katz wrote for Outside appeared later in Harpers and then in Katz' book. This would make that one source appear to be 3 sources. Furthermore almost everything on google that is not a direct reprint of that article derives its information from the article. The Katz article's numerous factual errors do render it unreliable and I do stand by the comment that I made earlier on the Ferret talk page that "Anyone who reads that article will immediately put things into perspective. By comparison it makes "Reefer Madness" look like a true story". However I notice that the Wikipedia article now also has a footnote to the book "Gould, Philip J.; Ralf Laue (2004). Book of Alternative Records. Metro Publishing Ltd.. ISBN 1843581264". Not having read it I can't comment on the book's reliability, but book sources are considered as valid as online sources WRT wikipedia policy. JeffStickney 00:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

the Book of Alternative Records source has information not present in Katz' article, such as the date and place of Reg Mellor's world record. Just because there are errors about the behavior of ferrets from people who observed the sport doesn't invalidate the existence sport/practice. My guess is that the sport has really died out (perhaps with the Reg Mellor generation), but Katz did capture it (even if poorly or hyperbolically, in the eyes of some), as did others and it should stay here. Please note there are now two sources in the article Scarykitty 15:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No one's disputing that this man put Ferrets in his pants, and no one's disputing that people have written about it. What people are disputing (and rightly so) is whether this makes it a real sport, or at least a notable sport for Wikipedia purposes. Even if real, we don't give articles to every nutty competition conceived by bored miners and lumberjacks. However, I have an idea for a compromise: Katz's book might make a decent article even if the "sport" itself does not. wikipediatrix 15:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

CommentSince the votes are 50/50 it is clear that there will not be a consensus to delete. Can we close this now? JeffStickney 02:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.