Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eshraval

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete per author's request, game creator's request, and general consensus in this nomination. -- nae'blis 17:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eshraval

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Eshraval (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

48 active players, no external sources, reads like it was written by the creators. Page has existed since May of last year. -- nae'blis 22:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Quarl ^(talk) 04:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination. Inkpaduta 04:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Breathtakingly non-notable. WMMartin 14:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. If you are going to delete the page, the you should delete the entire geofiction section and all the others worlds listed there, such as Vexillium, which has about four active players. The page is relevant to the categories listed, it exists and it is active. The page gets more than 1,500 hits per day. I thought an Encyclopedia was used to look up a variety of information, not just items that were only 'breathtakingly notable', as appears to be the standard by some here. As for that 'breathtakingly non-notable' comment - please grow up and act like an adult. I would sincerely appreciate the exact reason this page is up for deletion. It doesn't seem to violate any Wikipedia policies and clearly describes the object of the page. Eshraval Creator — EshCreator (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. and other edits have been just to the page in question.

The phrase "breathtakingly non-notable" may, if you wish, be read as "very non-notable", or simply "non-notable". I'll make the rest of this comment without further humorous adverbs...

(1) It is a well-established policy here that in a debate on whether or not to delete an article we do not consider the status of other articles. We aim to work on a case by case basis. You, or anyone else, is welcome to propose deletion of any articles you wish. Sometimes we examine several similar or related articles at the same time, but this is not the case here.

(2) The number of hits per day the website gets is not relevant. This, again, is a long-standing principle followed when we review articles for deletion. The reason for this is that we are concerned with notability, not popularity.

(3) Notability is not subjective. What would make Eshraval notable would be if it had been discussed in some non-trivial way in a reliable published work. I've tried to find such a reference, but have not been able to do so. In fact, outside a very small community there's no reference to Eshraval at all. Eshraval has particularly few references of any kind ( hence the "breath-taking" comment ).

(4) I did actually express the exact reason why I advocate deletion of this article ( note that I'm not "voting" for deletion here - this isn't a vote, it's a discussion in which I express an opinion ): I said above that the article is non-notable. I hope that when you click through to the link above on what notability is you'll see that this was comment enough, and was an "exact reason".

(5) Yes, you're right, encyclopedias are used to look up a variety of information. But the difference between Wikipedia and somewhere like Google is that here we aim to include the "notable" stuff. Of course you've now read the way we identify notability, but here's my general philosophy on encyclopedias, which I hope you find useful: I think of an encyclopedia as being a kind of general repository for information that a well-read student of a particular discipline would be expected to know, or would be interested to know. So we have an article on geofiction because it's reasonable to expect "moderately well-informed" people to know what it is. We also want to provide information that will be useful for experts in geofiction, so we should have articles on Islandia, Boxen, and so on. Now, should we have an article on Eshraval ? I'd say certainly "yes", if it's notable within the geofiction community. But because I'm not an expert on geofiction, the only criterion I have for making this call is to look for publications about it: fortunately, this is a nice mechanical process that simply requires me to go and look for them. If I find that someone has written a paper in a journal titled "Eshraval: a study of human interaction through geofiction", or I find a reference to Eshraval in a survey of geofiction that includes a line like "Eshraval is important in geofiction because <insert non-trivial reason>" then we've got clear evidence that Eshraval is regarded by the relevant people as important and different - that it stands out from its peers. And then we create an article. But at present, despite good faith efforts on my part, I can't find what we need.

(6) As you'll see if you check my record, I make most of my contributions to Wikipedia through AfD debates. This is often a rather thankless task: people who work mostly in this area are looked down on by people who focus on creating articles, because we are "not adding to the project". Though it's hard to believe, I'd be delighted if every article reviewed in a deletion debate could be kept: I want Wikipedia to grow, too. But, sadly, it is very often necessary to prune the tree so that it will grow more healthily. What makes us a useful resource is that when people use Wikipedia to look something up they know that (a) we're trying to tell the truth, without bias, and (b) an article in Wikipedia will provide references to independent sources where you can learn more about the subject and why it is important. My job is to help make sure that our articles meet these criteria. It's not glamorous, but I don't mind doing it.

I hope this rather lengthy response helps you understand why I expressed the opinion I did. Please feel free to contact me any time to discuss this further, or if you feel I can help you in any way. WMMartin 19:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• I appreciate the response, but this in no way excuses the 'breathtakingly non-notable' response. It was unwarranted, ill-advised, and made you instantly come off like a belittling, pompous jerk. While you may think something is not worthy of inclusion - and that is perfectly fine - the way you state that is really the only way you can be interacted with here on the internet; frankly, you were judged as an jerk, for good or ill. In the future I just ask that you respect others work in both thought and deed. If you had simply said 'Non-notable' there would have been no issue aside from the fact we think you are wrong, but at least that debate is on-target and not about an immature comment by you. -- Eshraval Creator

• Keep. As an Eshraval player and a long-time Wiki user and contributer, I'll have to disagree with you, Martin. If Eshraval is so, 'insignificant' as you say, do we really need an article on the Clark Material Handling Company? They make forklifts. They're hardly notable. Please, think before you speak; this is a living, breathing game, simulation and world, and I may not be the authority on the statistics of this page, I can assure you it is visited. Yes, it may need some work and updating, but otherwise there is nothing violating Wiki standards inside it. Thank you, Charles Buechner.
  • Comment Looking at what links to Clark Material Handling Company, it appears they are notable because it was one of the companies responsible for the development of the first forklift, not because it just makes forklifts. —Mitaphane _?|! 00:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I am also an Eshraval player, and I challenge those who are set against the Wiki page to take a hard look at the creativity and depth of the world of Eshraval. I daresay, it is not appropriate for one person to decide the result of countless hours of work is worthless because they do not appreciate the creation. While Eshraval is not for everyone, including Martin, that does not mean it has no notable content, concepts, ideals or designs. Remember, in a perfect world, there is no need for thought police. Sincerely, Xeyda — Xeyda (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep. Also an Eshraval player. I think the game speaks for itself. You don't have to like it. Just respect the joined vision of multiple people from across the world, creating a living, breathing world with its own radio broadcasts, content and unique political situations. Custodius 21:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC) — Custodius (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Weak delete, no independent sources found to satisfy WP:V and WP:RS. Article's only references aren't independent, they're affiliated with the creator and publisher. I expected Google to find some mentions on game-review magazine websites which would provide at least some claim to notability, but all I see are non-independent pages, Wikipedia mirrors, and a few blog postings. When this game has gotten substantially covered by reliable sources like the forklift maker has, and when such sources are cited, I will change to "Keep", but for now they don't appear in the article nor in the search I tried. None of the "keep" comments so far has provided a rationale that meets WP policies and guidelines. Barno 21:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Clark (forklifts, cited as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS) has no sources in the article but a Google search shows cites by the New York Times, World Cargo News, Automotive Business Review, and other verifiable sources, among the trivial hits such as press releases and directory listings. Barno 21:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Addendum to previous KEEP by Xeyda: Considering this is a free, unadvertised, online effort, the majority of any reviews of the game are going to be independent "blog" style blurbs and reviews of the game such as Omnipelagos.com, AllExperts.com and About.com. Xeyda 21:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: im also a player of eshraval and seriusly believe that hundreds of hours carefully crafting a world setting and game play cant be resumed by a "Breathtakingly non-notable" which is highly derrogative comment of our effort, its serious work and therefore deserves a place in wikipedia to inform people about our effort. Zhar2 — Zhar2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete - close to being a speedy spam delete, but hopefully we can get all 48 132 (which is not what the article says and, compared to Wikipedia's 1 million plus is... well, anyway) members of their community to meat up here before we delete the article. 〈REDVEЯS〉 22:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Now theres no need to be rude. Custodius 22:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: The sheer arrogance and lack of tact by some of you Wikipedia people is astounding. People who want this page kept are now 'spam'. Why are some of you so quick to discount and minimize the effort and community of others? Seriously? We will do whatever is required to bring the page up to standard, but I believe Yahoo! and other engines returns a lot of hits. If the page requires more information, we will certainly add it, but I don't think the page itself is out of place, irrelevant, 'Breathtakingly non-notable', or 'spam'.Eshraval Creator
• Comment - Where the hell did you guys get 48 from? There are 49 nations left open to play, meaning there are 132 members of the community. Which is bigger than some organizations listed on Wikipedia. -- 81.109.195.249 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC) — 81.109.195.249 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep I don't understand the reasoning behind this move. This is a Con-world. It's fake! You can't find anything about it besides blogs, pictures, and videos, of which there are 3690 hits on a Yahoo! search alone... Perhaps you should put up another nice pretty banner. I dunno, I think that you should reconsider the value that this article has to many people, and perhaps reconsider this edit. Cronos2546
• Keep There is no reason why this page should be deleted unless, you also go and delete many many other pages as well. Kezaron 22:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• Added Note. I think it is worthy to note that several people have found us via your Wikipedia. They were looking for geofiction/fantasy style online games and happened upon us through you. So I think the entry is relevant, because it is providing the very service this entire online encyclopedia was supposedly designed to provide. The entire category is/was clearly getting use AND providing a service to the greater online community. I guess the question is, how can it be non-notable or irrelevant if people have found it through this very entry? There is obviously a demand, and this entry in an online encyclopedia is providing that service. Eshraval Creator 12 February 2007
• Delete per WP:V. Of the 34 -wikipedia&btnG=Search ghits, they are no sources that are reliable, make not of the game's significance, or make more than a trivial mention of the game. Mitaphane _?|! 00:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. This reliable sources arguement is, in my humble opinion, complete rubbish. It's impossible to cite any source besides the site itself, along with the creator's word. Buechner
  • Comment If that is the case, then it violates WP:V. With out reliable secondary sources, how are we to assure that the claims the site makes are true? —Mitaphane _?|! 01:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I would ask you this; what is there to verify is true? This is not a 'science or history' based entry, its about a game. If you want to know if its true, you click the link. You read. What could possibly be misrepresented? Custodius 01:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment You're saying this like EshCreator would put false information on his site- let's take a look at something posted on the front page. According to the simulator, There are a total of 181 nations, and 49 open to play. Referring to the map and forums, this is a fact. The site itself is credible. Buechner 01:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: I've played Eshraval, and enjoyed it, but it does not meet Wiki notability guidelines. illspirit|talk 01:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• Remove This Page Immediately. As owner and creator of Eshraval, I request that you immediately delete this page and all references to Eshraval from the Wikipedia. I do not want my creation affiliated with your site in any manner, and by the comments of some of the so-called 'editors' here, it is clear that our game is not up to your so-called standards for inclusion. Eshraval Creator.

  Sorry, but only the creator of the page can request speedy deletion of the article. Wait one or two more days, the article will be surely deleted, since none of the "keep" opinions have bothered to give reliable sources to verify the information in the article. -- ReyBrujo 03:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, I know. Apparently for some, the actual existence of an entire website, a very active forum, and an Wiki that contains more than 8,300 pages is not consider "reliable" and can't be used to actually "verify" the existence of something. I am the owner of the game and I authorized this page, so just delete it and let's be done with this little mess, shall we? We shall never darken your glorious door again, I assure you. -- Eshraval Creator.

You don't seem to understand what Wikipedia considers notable. This has nothing to do with how active the game or forum is. A subject is notable if it has been featured in a number of external, published sources. Wikipedia is not a database of games, unless said game happens to be sufficiently notable. illspirit|talk 15:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are you posting, really? Nobody cares. I could care less if it is deleted - I have requested that it be so. So please let it die already. This whole thing is preposterous anyway. -- Eshraval Creator.

• I created the page, and, per EshCreator's request, would like to request its deletion -- ObeliskBJM 02:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete As big a tosser as WMMartin sounds, I agree that this is too unnotable, and as EshCreator requested it, I think it should go. TSMonk 03:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I think it's important to note that EshCreator's request to have it deleted is because he's fed up with the attitude some of you have towards his creation. The sheer rudeness and contemptuousness you people seem to have towards the idea of a Conworld astounds me. ~Nobody of note 15 February, 2007

• Do you think that trying to use a collaborative project to promote your game, ignoring the project's guidelines and insisting that we serve your interests, admitting that there are no sources of the kinds on which the project is based, and rejecting the project's standards is rude and contemptuous? Would you find it rude and contemptuous if Wikipedia's creator and a few of its participants joined Eshraval, then tried to tell you that you had to ignore the rules that make Eshraval work, with no good reason except that we think you should apply Wikipedia standards instead of yours? Barno 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Why hasn't it been deleted yet? Please remove it - there is no real debate. You try to standardize 'validity' and 'notability', which are very subjective concepts, and while I think you fail in some cases (this page among them), it is your site to do with as you will. And I can't believe you even replied to that post above. Very telling. And no it wasn't me and I certainly didn't put anyone up to it, before you assume such. -- Eshraval Creator.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.