Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eliot Bernstein

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This has gone on long enough and has degenerated into an argument over WP:COI (the community is not a battleground). Editors do not have to explicitly state that they have no COI, and assuming that all editors arguing to delete an article have it is failure to assume good faith. Aside from all that, there's a near-unanimous consensus to delete here. --Core desat 23:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eliot Bernstein

Blatant autobiography of a guy involved in digital imaging and a lot of litigation. Is he actually notable? -- RHaworth 04:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this guy is notable, and he's made some effort in terms of sources etc following email discussions with me, but the style of this is about as POV as it could be, jimfbleak 06:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete. It's just possible that Iviewit could be an article, but there are very few independent and reliable sources out there. Almost all of the information about the patent theft story comes from WP:COI sources. Even the sources in the article are things like this pdf of a 7-year-old industry article that doesn't mention the company at all, annotated with boxes making claims that this is the problem the company solved. If the sources existed -- CNet or John Dvorak or somebody writing "Iviewit solved the internet video problem!" -- they wouldn't have to do that. -- Dhartung | Talk 07:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
delete per dhartung. /Blaxthos 09:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to your comments please take note that these seem to be changes that can made to change the article but are not reason to delete without the changes. The article referenced [http://www.iviewit.tv/CompanyDocs/pr5.pdf this pdf is to show that prior to the inventions and even after while it was in filing stage, the problem was existent that video could not be streamed over low bandwidths without severe distortion. It is essential to understand what the inventions solved for, the other articles on the page have others explaining the "holy grail" discoveries such as, Grabbing The Holy Grail of Webcasting. Digital Webcast (August 2000), Stephen Schleicher. I think this editor who claims nobody has written this other than myself is wrong and should read all of the articles that were written.

The patent theft story I am more than happy to remove any reference and point the reader to external sources for that such as Iviewit. As that relates to Dingell forwarding to the Judiciary Committee and ongoing investigations of crimes against the United States & foreign nations, this is public information that should cause no problem as it is factual.

One also need to review the patent office suspensions that clearly show that the IP is under investigation and suspended pending investigations by federal authorities.

As to the statement that I am in a lot of litigation, I ask what exactly you are referring to, my company is in no litigation and I personally am not in litigation, is there something I do not know. I am involved in hosts of ongoing state, federal and international investigations which may prove later to turn into very serious litigations. Also, the art of patent is a litigious game but we are not quite at that point.

Again, I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions in getting this most pivotal invention story documented according to factual history. There are many more evidences of who invented the processes and verifications of such, such as strategic partnerships with industry leaders, licensing with contracts and for example http://www.iviewit.tv/CompanyDocs/colter%20letter%20to%20Calkins.pdf that led to a signed license for use. There are many others but I cited three or four of them that while old they validate the inventions and the correct time frame. I have tried to leave the criminal elements and accusations from the article but will post a new edit of it in a while where I make some of the suggested changes. Iviewit 21:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I wrote to the first editor (see below) and asked him to note any conflicts he may have with the story before acting as an editor due to the nature of the issue, not anything based on his advise. I noted he commented here without acknowledging if conflict exists and I would also ask any other editors to note if they have any similar conflicts before editing, this is to prevent any undisclosed conflicts upfront.

The suggestion is that you should wait until someone with no conflict of interest writes the article for you. -- RHaworth 03:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Per the Wikipedia guidlines

I responded

"This does not mean, however, that it is impossible to write a neutral, verifiable autobiography, or that they are strictly forbidden. It is just that people tend to promote themselves, either clearly (like saying "I'm great") or more subtly (like not including important, verifiable negative incidents in their lives, or adding lots of unsourced positive incidents, or giving the negative incidents too little weight). Many people do not have the humility required to write a neutral article that sticks only to published information. Because of this, writing autobiographies is highly discouraged. If one wants to write an autobiography it is advisable to discuss it with the community and seek consensus first."

I had submitted for editing an entry on Iviewit initially and it was edited to become the biography Eliot Bernstein while we worked on the form of the initial Iviewit entry. This was worked on and submitted to the prior editor who made several key points we worked until it appeared neutral and to tell both about the inventions, the inventors and those who surrounded these most pivotal inventions to the digital imaging and video worlds. It is very difficult in this instance to have others get involved on a public basis to aid Iviewit in any way that could put themselves and their families in harms way, this must be considered in how the article is written and by whom. Further, it would appear that if you could core into your issues we could get to a mutual resolution as to how make it work under the allowable guidlines, under special circumstances.

I was unclear if your comments were to Eliot Bernstein and Iviewit or just Eliot Bernstein, if we could put the comments on each article that would be preferable to make the changes that way if no trouble to you.

Regarding the conflict of interest, as this is a sensitive subject under hosts of investigations, I politely ask if you have any conflicts with any of the people found on the homepage, ie law firms, lawyers, accountants, shareholders, etc. Or do you have any other interest in these matters other than from an unbiased editorial point of view? Sorry to ask but you can see by the proposed bill submitted to Senator Dianne Feinstein referenced in Iviewit and Eliot Bernstein, we have even asked the President or signatory on the bill to sign similar conflict waiver before undertaking the matters.

Thank you for your time and consideration. Iviewit 04:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Let us see what other editors think. -- RHaworth 05:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC) I think I'm the editor referred to above. I don't know enough about the technology to know if this article meets the notability guidelines, but it certainly not neutral and encyclopaedic in tone. "heralded as being such grail" "an amazing start" "in a miraculous fit," "Instead the system that was to protect them instead is on trial for attempting to steal them." jimfbleak 06:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Thanks Jim! That was the kind of suggestion I was looking for. As you can see by the articles I did not herald it as the grail but rather others did. Either way I see that it could be considered not neutral and I can make those changes. By the way, where did the article go to make the changes. Thanks again. Iviewit 14:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RHaworth"

Iviewit 21:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reposted the article with changes to hopefully accomodate all. There are several reliable newspaper articles linked, sun sentinel, variety, and the others already mentioned. I have removed the statements that I thought were possibily interpreted as not neutral. Any other suggestions for changes. --Iviewit 23:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment This is so poorly written, it is unbelievable. You really want this representing you? This, imo, is one of the most difficult things about writing an article about yourself, you really cannot see how you presented yourself to the world. I will try to edit it down, and others can debate whether to keep or not. Please reconsider whether you want to write your own article on Wikipedia. If you are notable, you deserve much better than this, and leaving it up to regular Wikipedia editors will improve the article. It would be a hundred times better if you took a breath and took the time to read Wikipedia policies and guidelines about articles, because they have been crafted over the years to help writers producer useful and readable articles. KP Botany 01:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment Well, I tried with the first 5 paragraphs or so. I don't know, because of the heavy usage of fluffed peacock terms that the artice can be rewritten accurately. I am concerned, also, about the unsourced comments related to the fraud accusations. It might be best left as a single paragraph or deleted. KP Botany 02:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you KP Botany! I made some minor changes for accuracy but I appreciate your help in editing out the non-neutral parts, etc. I agree it is very hard to do an auto but under the circumstances not many are willing to come forward yet to help me until the mess is cleared. I usually tell all those that attempt that it could be life threatening as it has been for me and others before. Heck, I am so stressed by all this but more so it is hard to even take the kids to school this morning without fearing the car will blow up again killing them and that makes most days harder to focus on things like this. Thus, when someone takes a moment to aid me in any way, especially in a public forum, I count my blessings and say THANK YOU!!! If I can ever be of service to you please do not hesitate to call me. I am writing a book, "The Fight for the Grail" [1] if you want to help me edit it... Also thank you again for your help and input Jimfbleak and all the other editors that have participated. --67.126.206.24 14:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete. Fails WP:BIO —SaxTeacher (talk) 19:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, I ask all those editors contributing to clarify before comment if they have any conflicts with these matters in anyway. Under Wikipedia guidlines, it would be an editor conflict I am worried about and it could easily and politely cleared with a simple statement of no conflict prior to comments. I have asked the initial editor to disclose and I got no response and further comments, this seems a bit odd. As for deleting the entry as an autobiography that is not a reason for deletion unless the article is biased. I have worked with editors to remove any elements of it and if you have a comment about that please be specific as to the reason in the article. Otherwise blanket deletes do nothing to improve the article to make it a viable autobio. --Iviewit 15:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete unless verifiable references regarding this person come forward during the AFD period. Press releases don't cut it for my concerns. At present, the article doesn't indicate notability as per WP:BIO. (And considering I've never heard of this person before, and came here after looking at a deletion review request regarding the company, no, I don't have a conflict.) Tony Fox (arf!) 22:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Delete. We can't really use press releases. for notability. And it's certainly possible to write non-biased articles that should still be deleted; if I wrote an article covering an argument I had a while ago with one of my teachers during high school and gave both sides, it'd be deleted. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 23:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment The references are press releases? Geeze, I used to write press releases, the FIRST rule of a press release is you NEVER write anything negative. It's like using a television commercial as the source of factual information on something. Thanks, Veinor, for the wholesale deletion of extraneous information when I stopped with just a few paragraphs. KP Botany 00:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There were press releases and there are articles from reputable papers, if a press release is not allowed those will be removed, please advise as to the rule that is under. The other articles are newspaper articles from reputable papers. I do not know or never have heard of Tony Fox, thus he must not be an editor. As for press releases not being negative, many press releases are filled with factual information, like -- John Dingell forwarded the allegations of fraud to the House Judiciary Committee for review -- this comes from verifiable letters from Dingell's office to the Judiciary Committee. Press releases that the founders of Adelphia were implicated in crime are not positive or that Libby is going down or Gonsalvez but must be released for the facts for compliance. KP you are next in line after Tony Snow for + spin on the Bush admininstration. --LIBBY CONVICTED BUT GLASS HALF FULL AS MANY HAPPY PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON ARE HAPPY THEY WERE NOT-- Many press releases are negative so I wonder if there is a rule as to if + or - or no press releases are allowed, they were allowed by the PR Companies who also edit. I do appreciate Tony's comments and all others should not be relevant until they state if they have conflict with these matters. Thanks Tony. Come on folks, lets edit it to the rules, clear up any rule violations and let it stand as to the facts. If there are suggestions to make it acceptable under the rules, great. As for the TV commercial being factual, am I to take it that Lavitra does not cause drowsiness when the commercial states that fact or that cigarette smokes kills when TRUTH tells me the # of Americans dead or that Drunk Driving... The articles (misreferenced as Press Releases) already cited above were from newspapers printing articles independently on the technologies: Sun Sentinel, Variety, Digital Webcast, etc. I do not have a lot of time for nonsense editing in my life, what I see here are mostly comments that are wholly false as to the articles, claims that there are no factual references despite that several articles were written by top papers independently and verifying the technologies and the inventors. If the editors would read all the articles and then comment on the page, it would help this discussion. In fact, I am shocked that out of the several articles from reliable papers, the editors here appear to have only read certain articles and ignored the others, this seems like slighted editing in attempt to cause hurried opinions by editors in this forum. --69.229.114.20 04:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Who ever deleted the newspaper articles from reliable sources mentioned above please return them to the article as they are factual sources. Not sure who made those changes, who ever did that please state your reason for removing them and trying to call them press releases or put them back accordingly. so that they validate the claims.--Iviewit 04:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

KP - re eliot bernstein discussion you removed newspaper articles from verified sources such as Variety, Sun Sentinel, digital webcast all independent articles written by journalistic staff and cited them as press release which was not the case for much of what you removed. Also is there are a rule for press releases you can cite, say one that states no negative press releases. Removing the sources that verify the article I am sure was not your intent. Finally all of your edits should be put back until you state if you have any conflicts with these matters. I am suprised that you did not so state no conflict before making more edits, especially where you removed the articles from reliable sources and after repeated requests for disclosure. Also if you removed the childrens names, many bios have these and in fact the reference to Joshua contains valuable information regarding dating the inventions. --Iviewit 05:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Why are we removing factual information such as that Wayne Huizenga (billionaire Miami Dolphins, Blockbuster, Waste Management) made seed investment and who the strategic partners and other licensees were. Sounds like our editors are removing facts, what is the wikirule from the wikidecider on this. It is interesting that eiditors who refuse to admit or deny conflict when asked - bad wikimanners - who ask for reliable sources and facts are then removing news articles and other facts, whassabe?--Iviewit 05:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Let's put the original article back up until all editors disclose that they have no conflict and then perhaps we can begin according to the rules. "If it looks like a duck..."--Iviewit 05:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong Delete KP Botany 06:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment Nowhere in WP:COI does it dictate that all editors must disclose that they have a lack of conflict of interest. This discussion has proceeded entirely according to the rules so far. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 16:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, bias increases with questioning conflicts. There are rules for conflict both for an editor and contributor for a reason. What is editing if conflict exists? When asked if you have conflict, failure to disclose and increasing your rating to strong delete are indications that conflict exists. No conflict equals no problem in disclosure, all other actions to conceal conflict once requested is an indication of biased editing. All editors must adhere to conflict rules or else Wikipedia lacks any integrity. From the Wikirules A Wikipedia conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of individual editors. These include editing for the sake of promoting oneself, other individuals, causes, organizations, companies, or products, as well as suppressing negative information, and criticizing competitors.

In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. Of special concern are organizational conflicts of interest.[1] Failure to follow these guidelines may put the editor at serious risk of embarrassing himself or his client.

Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but if you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:

editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with, participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors, linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam); and you must always:

avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, attribution, and autobiography. Conflict of interest often raises questions as to whether material should be included in the encyclopedia or not. It also can be a cause, or contributing factor, in disputes over whether editors have an agenda that undermines the mission of Wikipedia. Editors who may have a conflict of interest This section of the guideline is aimed at editors who may have a conflict of interest. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict can be reasonably assumed, are strongly discouraged. Significantly biased edits are forbidden.

[edit] Declaring an interest Some editors declare an interest in a particular topic area. They do this in various ways. Many Wikipedians show their allegiances and affiliations on their user pages. You may choose to reveal something about yourself in a talk page discussion. Disclaimer: Wikipedia gives no advice about whether or how to use its pages to post personal details. This guideline will only raise some pros and cons.

Advantages:

By declaring an interest, you pre-empt anyone outing you or questioning your good faith. Most editors will appreciate your honesty. You lay the basis for requesting help in having others post material for you, and/or to audit/approve material you wish to post yourself. Disadvantages:

Your declaration may be invoked against you at some point. Your edits to the area in question may attract extra attention. Your declaration will give you no rights as an advocate. You may even be cautioned or, in extreme cases, told to stay away from certain topics.[4] In the case of commercial editing (editing on behalf of a company):

a disclosure enables you to ask openly for help in getting material posted and edited, but once your position is known, you will have to adhere stringently to neutral edits of affected articles, or no edits at all. Note that if you only correct bias against your company and its interests, and not bias in its favour, your editing will be different from that of a regular Wikipedian, who would be expected to do both.

[edit] Defending interests In a few cases, outside interests coincide with Wikipedia’s interests. An important example is that unsupported defamatory material appearing in articles may be removed at once. Anyone may do this, and should do this, and this guideline applies widely to any unsourced or poorly sourced potentially libelous postings. In this case it is unproblematic to defend the interest of the person or institution involved. An entire article that presents as an attack piece or hostile journalism can be nominated for speedy deletion and will be removed promptly from the site. Those who post here in this fashion will be subject to administrative sanction. Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons gives details on how biographical articles on living persons should be written.

On the other hand, the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted. Accounts of public controversies, if backed by reliable sources, form an integral part of Wikipedia's coverage. Slanting the balance of articles as a form of defence of some figure, group, institution, or product is bad for the encyclopedia.

[edit] Conflict of interest noticeboard A noticeboard for reporting and discussing incidents that require editors' intervention related to the application of conflict of interest guidelines is available at:

Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.

I am stunned that as editors of Wikipedia you all continue to fail to disclose if you are conflicted with the subject, that you are removing reliable sources to smear and entry and your degree of bias increases with each request for conflict disclosure. Maybe you don't have to disclose but if you don't you discredit Wikipedia as a reliable source of anything. Trying to delete the article by citing no sources, after removing newspaper publications is damning to the efforts this company has tried to establish. Lets elevate these matters.--69.229.114.20 17:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC) KP thanks for the message of no conflict. No personal attacks were levied it was merely a request for that disclosure before further editing and like with Jim I look forward to working with you now to get this article in an unbiased light regarding important inventions of our times. Since the inventions are notable on a historical basis that have had major impact on our world I think that it is an absolute encyclopedia entry in substance.--Iviewit 18:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I suggest that the sooner this article is deleted and this editor sanctioned the sooner Wikipedians can get on with creating an encyclopedia. I do have a Conflict of Interest now, I am seriously personally biased against anyone at Wikipedia being further manipulated by this editor. KP Botany 18:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

KP are we resorting to personal editorial attacks? Have you asked for sanctions and on what grounds? Now that you have stated that you are conflicted, please remove your edits and further conflict and personal attacks do not seem to advance this discussion.--Iviewit 18:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Iviewit 19:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As you have stated you are conflicted please remove ALL of your edits from the article. Once you have done that, I will gladly do the same. KP Botany 19:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Newspaper articles cited in press releases No, cite the newspaper article, not the internal press release.

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought: Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and neologisms; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. Material added to articles must be directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources."

This is precisely what a press release is:

"A news release, press release or press statement is a written or recorded communication directed at members of the news media for the purpose of announcing something claimed as having news value."

If you disagree with the substance of my edits, please say so on the article's talk page, by explicitly stating why you think your edit version should stand and why mine shouldn't. But please do so without any personal attacks on me. Just because Wikipedia has a set of guidelines you disagree with doesn't mean that editors trying to follow those guidelines are doing so because they have a conflict of interest. I have no COI with your or this article. I don't know you, and I've never heard of you until this article, and it will not be a requirement of this article that every editor satisfy your personal requirements for editing. I've been editing Wikipedia for a while now, and other editors know that this is the type of article I generally fight to keep, and work with other editors to produce a good article, namely small biographies. Making accusations against me isn't going to get you what you want, or appear to want, namely your article in Wikipedia. Working with other editors and learning Wikipedia's style and policy guidelines would be a much better tactic.

I did work with a hostile editor once and eventually, with a group of other editors, produced a top notch biography that recently went to good article status. I put up with personal accusations to get a good, well-written, factually acurate, nicely layed out, enjoyable to read article. But I won't do it again.

There are excellent guidelines available all over Wikipedia about how to write articles, but please start with WP:A.

KP Botany 05:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC) KP again thanks for the conflict statement. On Eliot Bernstein article I did state that the three news paper articles you removed were in fact not press releases but articles written by the paper and unbiased news journalists and asked they be put back in. As for press releases if they are unusable we will delete. But then can we use the actual correspondence from Lowey and Dingell and cite those as links or whatever to the actual letters? I am not hostile but I did find other editors on that article and this one avoiding the conflict question and as you know now, there are some who never want the truth about these inventions to be told to the public. As for the other issues on Eliot Bernstein I would appreciate that for each deletion we discuss prior to change so that we reach agreement. --Iviewit 18:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As you are demanding I leave for COI reasons, please remove all of your edits from this article immediately, and I will be glad to follow your lead. KP Botany 19:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC) KP I have stated my conflict for discussion and the reason that authoring such could endanger an authors life, since my and family's lives are already in grave danger... Your new conflict seems predicated on anger and spite for unknown reasons. You should not wait for others to make right actions before you do what is right for you. I did not demand you leave, you stated a conflict in a mean and hostile tone and that should be cause for recusal. --Iviewit 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

My conflict arose purely because of the mean and hostile tone you took with me when you disagreed with my removing press releases from your article. When I made an edit you liked, I was a great editor. You are the one concerned about COIs, and you keep raising them. I suggest that the surest way to alleviate your concerns is to remove the biggest COI from the article: yourself. This is enough on the topic. KP Botany 19:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not assume hostile tone at you, I found removing articles from reliable sources citing them as as press release was wrong and asked for help in understanding your changes. I disputed your cliam that press release are positive and made a joke about tony snow. Your comments came with another editor who made reference to gay voting, any comments ion retort to that were not directed at you. When you denied conflict prior to stating conflict , I wrote to you that your comments could stand, at least to me, as you had stated no conflict, then seeing you change course I made my statements that you should recuse.--Iviewit 20:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)--Iviewit --Iviewit 20:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newspaper articles cited in press releases

No, cite the newspaper article, not the internal press release.

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought: Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and neologisms; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. Material added to articles must be directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources."

This is precisely what a press release is:

"A news release, press release or press statement is a written or recorded communication directed at members of the news media for the purpose of announcing something claimed as having news value."

There are excellent guidelines available all over Wikipedia about how to write articles, but please start with WP:A.

As you are demanding I leave for COI reasons, please remove all of your edits from this article immediately, and I will be glad to follow your lead. KP Botany 19:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

KP I have stated my conflict for discussion and the reason that authoring such could endanger an authors life, since my and family's lives are already in grave danger... Your new conflict seems predicated on anger and spite for unknown reasons. You should not wait for others to make right actions before you do what is right for you. I did not demand you leave, you stated a conflict in a mean and hostile tone and that should be cause for recusal. --Iviewit 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/r/t/Wikipedia%7EArticles_for_deletion_Eliot_Bernstein_c0f6.html"

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eliot Bernstein

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[edit] Eliot Bernstein

[edit] Newspaper articles cited in press releases

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