Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Toro Handrail

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. At least a few of the deleters say "unless", and Uncle G's research seems to have convinced a couple of them sufficiently to change their opinion. Some still remain as deletes, although some usages etc have been added to the article. The rewrite, the changed opinions and the fact that, on the numbers, we're below the popular two-thirds level (giving the author a presumed 'keep', seeing as they have worked on the article in light of the AfD), leads me to a no consensus. I could count the merges with the deletes and declare a merge, but the merge doesn't have enough support itself for me to prepared to do that as part of this closure: it can be done by someone else if they like, though. The original author should be warned in the strongest possible terms against making experimental articles, and against using that as an excuse in AfD. -Splash^talk 21:25, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] El Toro Handrail

This is an article about a handrail. Like, a specific handrail that exists somewhere. Somebody skated on it or something. I'm a pretty reasonable dude, but I will throw a tantrum if this isn't gone reeeeeeal soon. Paul 02:17, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, Non-notable. -- BD2412 ^talk 02:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Per research by Uncle G and DS below, I suppose it can't hurt to smerge a line or two on this with the appropriate skateboarding article. ^{(Not a typo, "smerge" is a word invented by R. fiend to describe a shrink & merge.)} But do not keep as an individual article... it's a handrail. -- BD2412 ^talk 02:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, unencyclopedic. -Loren 02:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unless someone can make a really good argument for notability. Nateji77 02:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. A notable handrail--now I've seen it all. A single mainstream news article about it might change my mind. Owen× ☎ 05:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Comment, maybe it can be merged into a skating article, but the list of tricks people performed there needs to go. Still, I agree, calling a handrail notable is going to cause a lot of problem. Is it actually the longest or just one of the longest as the article states? - Mgm|^(talk) 11:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep verifiable and interesting. Delete- down this road lies madness. --Scimitar ^parley 14:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• This is a tricky one.

  Certainly the handrail exists, and certainly it is of some note within the skateboarding community, going by the number of message board posts talking about it that come up in various Google Web searches. (Given that there are various other things called "El Toro", and given that skateboarders tend to communicate in their own argot rather than in English, as exemplified somewhat in this very article, this is quite difficult to search for.) The difficulty is exactly how noteworthy it is in the world of skateboarding.

  The message board posts, from as far afield as skateboarding web sites in New Zealand, refer to the rail as "famous". Moreover, research turned up several interviews with skateboarders by their fans, where the fans breathlessly posed questions such as "Are you going to do El Toro?", "Have you ever done El Toro?" and the like (example example) implying that this isn't just any old site for skateboarding.

  The list of people who have performed tricks there appears, from research, not to be merely a random list of skateboarders. It is a list of people who have performed tricks on the rail in published skateboarding videos. Searching turns up numerous mentions of a series of "411" videos, but the details are not yet clear without further research. It's unfortunately somewhat tricky to source. (The best source that Google Web turns up is a web site that is currently unreachable from here because of a stupid IP routing table error at 67.19.255.62.)

  Currently, therefore, I'm at Weak Keep. Uncle G 15:34:55, 2005-09-09 (UTC)

  • The New Zealand skateboarding web site changed its web server software after Google's spider indexed it, breaking the hyperlinks that Google Web gives. I've now found out how the web site has changed its URLs. For some discussions that mention El Toro without explanation, implying that members of the community are well aware what it is, see here and here. Uncle G 17:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
• Despite my delete vote, I do have to say that this article is extremely well-done, and... Holy fucking shit. There's over twelve hundred non-wiki Google hits just for "el toro" + handrail. Once you add in variants like "Eltoro", it goes up by another hundred. God help me, I'm verging on weak keep. DS 15:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. The article mentions "switch boardslide by that one kid in digital." That alone should kill it. ::grin:: No, seriously, this is so not-notable that I'm beside myself. --Jacqui M Schedler 15:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete nn, nn, nn. Dottore So 16:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. It's a handrail. I'm sorry to paint all handrails with one brush, but it's a handrail. It could be a handrail that Hitler impaled himself on to commit suicide and was then given to Joseph Stalin where he had it used as a gavel during trials to have political opponents exiled, and I would be uncertain on its encyclopaedic value. This is a handrail that skateboarders involve with tricks, so I am not uncertain. Lord Bob 17:54, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete: I appreciate UncleG's research, but that would, I think, merely rate this particular handrail as a mention in a skateboarding tricks article or in a jaw cracking or organ donation article. The object itself is an object, and it seems that the actions performed with/on/near/under the object are the things that are of any significance, and those only within a highly specialized group. Geogre 18:06, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom... just take a deep breath Paul. Merge into skateboarding article. Per Uncle G this handrail obviously has some significance and notability in the skateboarding community, but I'm still not convinced it deserves it's own article--Isotope23 19:12, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per Geoogre. Merge into another skateboarding article would also be appropriate. Johntex\^talk 21:12, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete lest [[User:PaulHanson|Paul] has a tantrum. Oh, and its a handrail. That is a really really good readon to delete it. Sabine's Sunbird 01:08, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, per Uncle G. Handrail has references, and notability within skateboarding community seems to be established. -- Creidieki 02:37, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. It's a handrail. / Peter ^Isotalo 16:46, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
  • And the Blarney Stone is a stone. The physical construction of an object is not necessarily all. Uncle G 17:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep If, as Uncle G's research indicates, people within the skateboarding world, from other continents are aware of this handrail, then it is notable. Normally mundane objects can aquire notability if a sizeable group of people attach importance to it. Dsmdgold 14:29, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per Geogre. Also no evidence that this article will ever be written in anything resembling the English language. Quale 06:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Since you wrote that, the original skateboarder argot has, in fact, been mostly converted into English. Uncle G 00:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
• "Gareth Stehr stuck backside 180 a number of times without riding away. Irvine local Justin Figueroa is rumored to have back smithed it." Is this even English? It is a piece of metal attached to the floor. This is not encyclopaedic. Stick a line about it existing in one of the various badly-written skateboarding articles. Strong delete. Proto t c 11:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The original author has replaced those two sentences with text written in English since you wrote that. Uncle G 00:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Uncle G, and thanks for the research. Kappa 17:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
• Okay, I initially made this page to test out the wikipedia process. I knew how poorly written it was, what with the part about not knowing someone's name and quoting a friend of mine, also incorporating my opinion into the article earlier. However, I assure you it is an important landmark for skateboarding, comparable to Wrigley Field or other sports landmarks. Just because you may not care about a particular subject does not make it worthless. Isn't wikipedia devoted to providing information about obscure topics? My article on Hubba Hideout will be much better written, so look forward to deleting that. In summation, wikipedia is great. Nichols 18:19, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I want to say how sorry I am that wikipedia isn't prepared to cover obviously notable features like this. It's heartbreaking really. Kappa 13:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
• Does this article conform yet, or is it inherently non-conforming? Many of the complaints have been fixed.Nichols 18:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Seriously, it's been substantially cleaned up. The list of feats performed on it has been properly wikified and the performers' full names have been supplied, along with the fact that legal trouble ensused. The fact that its name has become a generic for in skateboarding should be indicative of notability. DS 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC) (note to admin - do NOT count this as a second vote!)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.