Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dueling Analogs

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. - Daniel.Bryant 11:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dueling Analogs

Dueling Analogs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

Non-notable webcomic. Only source for notability provided is a nomination for a questionable award. WP:WEB states it must win in order to be notable. Not notable now, page could be recreated if it attains notability in the future, but WP is not a crystal ball. - Ocatecir 09:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep - Notable sources:

• 2006 Web Cartoonist Choice Awards: Nomination Outstanding Gaming Comic [1], Nomination Outstanding Web Design [2]
• Article on the BBC discussing Dueling Analogs [3]
• Interview with the creator of Dueling Analogs in Zoinks! Magazine (this is a newspaper, but I included a link to verify this) [4] - Pierski 20:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Article about Dueling Analogs on [Destructoid.com] [5] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pierski (talk • contribs) 03:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

• Like the nomination said, it needs to WIN to be considered notable. The newspaper doesn't seem to be notable and the BBC is only a blurb from a tech blog, not an independent news piece (and even he says he doesn't know if it will catch on.) None of these satisfy WP:V. - Ocatecir 03:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I agree the BBC mention is trivial, but regarding the Zoinks! Magazine article, you argue that the newspaper doesnt seem notable? Setting aside the fact that you do not back this statement up, the newspaper itself does not need to satisfy the notability requirements, the article simply needs to be non-trivial and from an independent source. The fact that a non trivial article about the comic was written in an independent print newspaper is a point in favor of notability. And the Destructoid reference above is an article completely devoted to Dueling Analogs, talking about it's subject matter, tone and style. This is a non-trivial, independent reference to Dueling Analogs. According to Wikipedia:Notability_(web) web content is deemed notable if "The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself." These two articles satisfy this requirement and establish the Dueling Analogs comic as notable acording to Wikipedia:Notability_(web). Fforde 08:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC) — Fforde (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Sorry, but the notability of the source IS a factor. See WP:V. - Ocatecir 09:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Read the article yourself. That article has nothing to do with notability. It has to do with verifiability which is completely different. But since verifiability is a requirement for a source, lets take a look. There are two criteria listed that could make a source dubious. Either the publication has a poor reputation for fact checking, or it is self published by the subject of the original wikipedia article. Neither of these cases are true so the publication passes the test for verifiability. Perhaps you meant to question the fact that the magazine referenced is a reliable source, rather than that it is verifiable or notable. It has been published (in print) since 2001 [6], and as the magazine focuses on webcomics it could be considered an expert on the subject at hand. The magazine practices editorial oversight and all content is attributable to an original author[7]. All of these things contribute to the magazine's reliability. Yes it is a nitch magazine that you personally may never have heard of but that does not mean it is not reliable. I don't understand why you are so adament about deleting this article. You asked for proof of notability, you have received it. Fforde 17:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC) — Fforde (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Verifiability and notability go hand in hand. Verifiability does have a section on sources, read it again. Also read WP:RS. Furthermore, Wikipedia serves as a resource for the general public, not a niche segment of the population. Therefore, notability has to establish why the general public would care about the article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. - Ocatecir 19:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• There is nothing on the Verifability page that says a source to an article must pass the same notability requirements an article on wikipedia requires. As I demonstrated the sources cited in this article satisfy the conditions set forth in WP:V. I have also already demonstrated that the sources satisfy the requirements set forth in WP:RS. If you disagree, please explain your arguements rather than linking to arbitrary pages on Wikipedia that I have already linked you to. In regards to Wikipedia not being an indiscriminate collection of information, this applies to lists, travel guides, school projects, etc. Deuling Analogs is not any of these things. If you disagree with any of my arguements, please explain why instead of linking to arbitrary documents on Wikipedia. Fforde 20:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC) — Fforde (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I already have disputed all the sources. The award was only a nomination, not notable. The BBC article admits itself that the webcomic is not notable. The magazine is a publication dedicated to webcomics and covers hundreds of other webcomics deemed not notable for wikipedia. Once again, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but independent verifiable OUTSIDE sources are needed to show why the general public would care about this in 10 or 100 years. It looks like no information exists that would establish why anyone outside the webcomic fanbase would care about this article. WP:NOT applies to all articles, not just the ones you listed. Since you are a newly created account, why not spend more time exploring wikipedia and its guidelines in order to learn what its all about before jumping into an AFD which relies on Wikipedia guidelines instead of personal preference? - Ocatecir 20:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Zoinks Magazine is a magazine devoted to the best of the best of web comics. It does not contain hundreds of comics as you suggest, in fact they have been criticized for including too many articles and too few comics. This is an independent outside source. The Destructoid reference is also a non trivial, independent reference to Deuling Analogs. Yes web comics certainly are a niche interested but I was not aware that a topic had to appeal to everyone to be included in wikipedia. My arguements are not personal preference, in fact I am not even personally a fan of this comic, but as you said this does not matter. I feel it is notable, based on Wikipedia's guidlines for notability, and I think it would be a mistake to remove it from Wikipedia. I am not going to go back and forth on the reputability of the sources provided any more though. I feel the sources are reputable and establish notability. Fforde 21:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, no reputable sources suggeting any notability, impact or achievement. Wikipedia is not a web directory. -- Dragonfiend 18:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Several sources were listed above with details on their reputability. If you feel these sources are in fact not reputable, please explain why. Fforde 20:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC) — Fforde (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Hi, Fforde, If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that CyberneticTigerZ's three paragraph blog post[8] about this comic on destructoid.com is a nontrivial article from a source with a reputaton for fact-checking and accuracy and that this article describes this webcomic's achievements, impact or historical significance. This is incorrect, as a three paragraph blog post is trivial, neither CyberneticTigerZ nor destructoid.com have reputations for fact-checking and accuracy, and the blog post just describes the webcomic rather than suggesting it is of any importance. -- Dragonfiend 21:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough, I can agree with that, thank you for explaining your point. Seeing as that only leaves a reference from Zoink! Magazine, I think I agree, this is not enough to satisfy notability. Fforde 21:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, ST47Talk 21:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong keep per Pierski JackSparrow Ninja 22:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete,, two blog entries and an appearance in an intermittently published webcomic magazine do not add up to notability.

Changed vote to neutral based on the Game Revolution mention.--Nydas^(Talk) 12:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hrmm, I just noticed the reference about this comic being listed as a featured comic at GameRevolution.com. Based on that and the Zoinks Article, I feel this comic satisfies the requirements for notability. -- Fforde 22:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Interview with Steve Napierski [[9]] on Joystiq. -- Pierski 13:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • While I feel that the article may be a weak keep, I just wanted to point out to Pierski that he has already made a "keep" statement" above: it is custom that you only say "keep" or "delete" once (you are allowed to change your mind of course), and add further comments with a "comment" or similar note. Furthermore, while your input here is valuable, I would urge you, before editing the article any further, to consider WP:COI. While I don't think you have done anything wrong, it may be better if you leave alone articles where you have such a strong conflict of interest in the future (you are Napierski, I presume?). Fram 14:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I apologize for adding multiple "keep" statements. As far as updating the article with further information and notablity, I thought that was the point. Also, the Joystiq interview [[10]] was just released this morning. I wanted to make sure it was added to the page to help its "keep" defense. And yes I am Napierski. -- Pierski 19:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.