Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Death Before Dishonor (ROH)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete all. —Centrx→talk • 05:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death Before Dishonor (ROH)

Death Before Dishonor (ROH) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fancruft. Results of shows promoted by an indepdendent wrestling company are not inherently notable, no assertion of notability One Night In Hackney 04:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reasons:

Crowning a Champion (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Final Battle (ROH) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Generation Next (wrestling show) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Glory by Honor (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

ROH: Honor Invades Boston (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Milestone Series (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Night of Appreciation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

ROH Hell Freezes Over (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Ring of Honor Anniversary Show (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Road to the Title (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Round Robin Challenge (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Survival of the Fittest (wrestling) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

The Era of Honor Begins (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

• Delete all per nom. TJ Spyke 04:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per nom. MER-C 08:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment it appears that wikipedia retains articles on wrestling PPVs and they are similar to these articles - there are WWE, WCW, TNA, ECW articles and ROH are the next organisation in line in terms of size/fanbase/dvd sales. MLA 09:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment These are not pay per views though, these are just shows taped for DVD with no overall notability. One Night In Hackney 10:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I don't see what difference being PPV or straight to DVD makes, what's notable is the content of the show, in context of the history of the company, storylines, title changes, debuts, departures etc. Obviously regarding Ring of Honor, these events are considered more notable than regular 'house shows', because they are the only type of show the company promotes and also exist as DVD releases. If cards like Showdown at Shea, all the Clash of the Champions, Royal Rumble '88 and all the ECW non-PPV cards, none of which were PPV, and in some cases weren't released on home video and/or televised, are worthy of pages, then so are the ROH cards. JustJoe4Life 17:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Comparing these to other articles is a strawman argument. It does not make these any more notable, and if the other articles aren't notable they may well be deleted as well. Clash of the Champions were live TV specials, Showdown at Shea was a huge stadium show in the days before PPV attended by over 35,000 people, how many people attended the Ring of Honor shows? Having checked through the Wiki pro wrestling project, several ECW shows (including ones released on home video) have been deleted, so there is a clear precedent. If you believe the articles to be notable, please improve them. One Night In Hackney 23:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete the lot as cruft. Some Americans may have a complete obsession with professional wrestling but having this many detailed Wikipedia articles is ridiculous. JIP | Talk 17:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• I should point out: if/when these get delete, Category:Ring of Honor shows will also need to be deleted (since all the articles in it are part of this AFD). 00:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep the Lot First of all, The Era of Honor Begins was a live recording in certain area's. Lots of people have brought that one just for the match of Super Crazy v Eddy Guerrero! They are all on DVDs, are for sale on RoH's main website. This is wrestling history. If this was a library and these where books. You would be book burning! The way I see it, if you delete all of these you might as well do the same for WWE and TNA's. So you wont be doing that to them. So I say keep them. Govvy 11:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
• ROH is still just an indy fed, and these are just indy shows. Being released on DVD doesn't make that much of a difference. Also, the comment that "lots" of people bought a DVD just for that one match is unsourced and a weasel statement. TJ Spyke 02:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I don't know if this helps, but they are currently being aired on TWC(The Wrestling Channel) in the UK. Govvy 10:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The Era of Honor Begins was not a live recording at all, if you insist it is please provide verification from a reliable source. Ring of Honor currently airing on TWC makes the promotion more notable, it does not make the results of shows more notable. One Night In Hackney 10:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Ring of Honor on TV.com Govvy 11:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Please see the episode guide [1]. That is nothing more than a list of Ring of Honor live shows, those are not TV episodes. One Night In Hackney 12:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment TV.com is every show that has been on TWC channel. They have been televised in the US. Not sure what channel know.

• Comment Untrue. The last episode on TV.com is dated November 4 [2]. As of the last website update at the end of November, TWC had just aired When Hell Freezes Over from Januray 14 [3]. From memory, only approximately 12 hour long episodes of Ring of Honor TV were ever shown in America and they were not shown live. One Night In Hackney 02:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per above. Having an event on DVD does not make it notable. Vegaswikian 01:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Only "The Era of Honor Begins" was shown live as far as I know. It was on WGTW TV 48 first in Philadelphia 2002. Other shows where aired on the same channel. This obviously was shown in the UK and US on TV! As well as being on DVD. These arn't just DVDs they are shows on TV! You consider them a small promotion, maybe yes, but you have stars who have performed here. Eddie, Super Crazy, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Full Blooded Italians, Samoa Joe, That fallen Angel Guy even got Mick Foley in the lata eps. This is all history to me, this is evidence of where they where, what they where doing. Awards they earned in Ring of Honor. Remove these and all those belts suddenly mean nothing. Remove these and then all other Ring of Honor pages become less, remove these and you're taking away half of what is Ring of Honor. Removing these is removing wrestling history and I don't like lost history. If you remove these you leave the same question for everyone! "Ye I know he was in Ring of Honor, but what did he do?" So in final, Don't remove this history. These in my view shouldn't of even been considered for deleting. Keep Please Govvy 10:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Can you provide ANY proof that have been on TV? I haven't heard anything about it, at most it might be in some local markets. Also, many WWE wrestlers compete in indy feds (which ROH is, it's not a major promotion yet). Just saying you lke ROH is not a reason to keep an article, especill events that were only on DVD (not TV). On ROH's own website they admit they don't have a TV deal (with a discussion about would they be willing to give up TNA wrestlers if it meant getting a TV deal for ROH). TJ Spyke 02:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment ROH did have a Philadelphia area TV show in 2002, called High Impact TV. However it was never shown live, and was an hour long show. The debut show DVD release is approximately 3 hours long, and factoring in intermissions and suchlike, it's reasonable to say the whole show would have lasted somewhere in the vicinity of 4 hours. A TV station would not give a brand new independent promotion running their first show 4 hours of live coverage on a Saturday night. If Govvy can prove otherwise, please do so. One Night In Hackney 03:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't really help his case of keeping it though. The local indy fed in my area has a TV show too, local TV shows are not notable (especially it wasn't live and only last briefly). TJ Spyke 04:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.